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[Book Spoilers] EP407 Discussion

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Great episode!



- TV Cersei appears to be less squemish than Book Cersei, walking through those corpses without even flinching



- Seems they are softening up Arya and The hounds departure..Which i kinda like, i don't like how she ditched him in the book



- Loved how Oberyn bought up the molestation scene. I thought they might leave it out for more Cersei whitewashing..Also glad Oberyn brings up that Cersei was trying to manipulate him the other episode



- Loved the changes they made of Sansa slapping Robin. I also thought they might not go through with the kiss scene due to Sophie only JUST being an adult but i'm glad they did.



-Goodbye Lysa! Crazy bitch!


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Even though this episode was mostly a faithful adaptation almost everything about it felt wrong. They have decided to completely abandon subtlety or any form of controlled storytelling. The little nuances matter. Dany and Daario made no sense here, it was this silly male stripper moment of a guy who lets face it is not actually Daario. He is just some good looking dude. The Sansa Littlefinger moment was completely botched, why does everything have to be so stripped of emotion? The only parts that I truly enjoyed were Tyrion and Arya scenes which actually did involve emotion and real interactions between characters.


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The thing with Shireen is, Stannis has always been protective of her. In the previous episode he ordered his wife not to physically abuse her. Now Melisandre appears to be placing her in harm's way, and tells the wife about it. The wife has a decision to make, tell Stannis or not? And Stannis will have a decision to make. Daughter, Lord of Light and chance to rule, Melisandre? I hope he kills Melisandre.


Edited by Hoo

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For those whining about and berating those who are whining about the "Your sister" revision: Tom Stoppard in his play The Real Inspector Hound exposes the hackery of some writers who haven't the creative resources to include expository information without simply announcing it in the most cringe-worthy and ridiculously obvious way. D and D apparently haven't come across Stoppard (their humorless interviews seem to confirm this). Let me see if I can explain why changing "Only Cat" might matter to some:

1. Baelish grew up with Catelyn and Lysa. They've shared quite a few life-altering experiences. Call me strange, but it just seems ridiculous that a middle-aged man would refer to his unrequited love to her freakin' sister as "your sister." Just as a generic plot/character device, well, refer back to Stoppard. Even given the possibility of cynically worrying that viewers--who have now had three seasons' worth of episodes to put on their memory caps--might not know who "Cat" is, maybe that's the consequence of trying to jam too much content into 50 minutes of space. Maybe if they would allow their scenes (and therefore characters) a little bit more space to breathe, they wouldn't feel compelled to make such inane editorial choices.

Let me put it this way: the edit was so stupid that it made me pause and think about how stupid it was, thereby destroying the whole dramatic effect of the climax. Now that's what a hack edit will do.

2. I'd argue there's dramatic punch to "Cat"--a punch that is lost by "Your sister." By saying "Cat," Baelish is throwing the intimacy he has had with "your sister" right in Lysa's face. He's also implying more than just a fraternal intimacy. It's what makes Baelish such a nasty piece of work: he's not just sending her to a horrific death, he's sending her there with the knowledge that he loved "your sister" AND that he had long since earned the right to call her "Cat." It's twisting the knife before she even knew it was in her. Pity the producers didn't give us Lysa's revelation of hearing "that" word, but, the HBO clock of doom ("must not go beyond 50 minutes...") was clanging, so...see Stoppard and hackery explanation above.

Look, I'm not going to make the argument that Martin is The Bard, but he is damn clever with dialogue and shows nice depth of characterization. It makes for good writing, good enough to make this humble reader read a genre he wouldn't normally be caught dead glancing at. Is it too much to ask the producers and the bean-counters at HBO not to muck up the good bits? My Seven Gods, the fact that so many readers remember the line should be at least be a hint of the potency of it.

And props to HouseHarrison and the link, which perfectly illustrates Stoppard's Theory of Expository Hackery

From page 19 of 'only Cat' topic on this episode.

Whilst the change didn't bother me that much, I found this post almost changed my mind.

I thought their argument(s) were quite good.

Edit: clarity

Edited by Chloe.a.thomson

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The audience might have gotten confused though, they may have thought Littlefinger was saying he only loved cats.


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From page 19 of 'only Cat' topic on this episode.

Whilst the change didn't bother me that much, I found this post almost changed my mind.

I thought their argument(s) were quite good.

I don't buy that argument. The same argument can be made if one wants to nitpick Cersei calling Jaime the Lord Commander, instead of Jaime or brother. It's just book readers clawing for straws.

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The insane and unrealistic expectations of some people here are quite comical. Worst acting yet on the series? Unwatchable? If you don't like the changes they're making to the source material then by all means don't watch, but both of those statements are insane.



Tyrion/Oberyn was terrific. Tears in both of their eyes as Tyrion contemplated the depth of his family's deep-seated hatred of him while Oberyn is tender one moment and bad-ass the next. Perfect. Oberyn was such inspired casting.



So what if the Mountain doesn't seem to be the most promising actor ever (which is a large conclusion based on one line)? He's a one-dimensional character anyway, made special solely by his size and how evil he is. He will have a handful more lines at most in the remainder of the series, so the guy doesn't need to be Laurence Olivier. He's suitably huge and suitably formidable.



"Only Cat" would've been cool but absolutely nothing was lost in meaning with the way they did it. 99+% of the viewership has absolutely zero attachment to that particular line so it's utterly unimportant in the grand scheme of the show. All of the Eyrie scenes could've benefitted from more time for sure but they worked just fine regardless.



One of the three best eps of the season so far, imo.


Edited by clawson24

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Mellisandre and Sylese -- that was awkward. I'm not sure if I'm disappointed or relieved that that didn't end up as a sex scene. Although I'm leaning towards disappointed -- not because it would be "hot", but because it wouldn't be. Neither Stannis nor Seylese are described as attractive in the books, and their relationship is frequently described as "dutiful", so (given that the show already upsexed Stannis+Mel), I think showing Selyse+Mel would have been an interesting twist. At least more interesting than *just* showing Me's boobs and making an eerie foreshadowing of Shireen's importance when the obvious answer to "Why bring Shireen?" is "because everybody else is going and it would be stupid to leave the King's daughter as an easy-to-pick-up hostage".


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I'm really surprised how critical some are being in this episode's feedback... stunned really. I thought the episode was phenomenal. Easily one of the best this season really... The depth of emotion in nearly all of the actors (except maybe Gregor Clegane and who cares, he's just a giant evil guy with a giant sword) - pretty much all were spot on perfect.



Oberyn / Tyrion scene blew me away... I cried like a baby. I cried for baby Tyrion who knew nothing but torment his whole life from Cersei and pretty much everyone except his brother who protected him. I cried for Elia and her children and the horrific way they died. I cried for Oberyn - because his vengeance is so lost and wasted. :( ... The look of hope in Tyrion's eyes at that moment when Oberyn said he would be his champion. I cried for that lost hope.



Every other scene was awesome too - even the weird Mel / Selyse scene. I liked the "Only Cat" scene even without the trademark two words being said - who cares, the moment was still very intense and well done.



This whole episode seemed to be about relationships between two people who were somewhat adversary yet partnered by fate ... did anyone notice that?



LOVED IT.



I even loved Littlefinger, funny batman villain voice and all. I love him!

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I'm so pissed that they didn't show the Daario/Dany sex -.- I mean the guy stripped and then go out of Dany's quarters the next morning and we are suppposed to believe that they had sex? Ugh!



Crazy Lysa is finally gone and I can't say that she'll be missed.



Best scene? Oberyn and Tyrion which made the all episode for me. Jorah and Dany scene was very great and Ian/Emilia have the kind of chemistry that's lighting in a botlle.



If they touch baby Shireen, I'll go all mother of dragons on them. I believe either Stannis or Devos will be there to save her and she might go to the wall with her father.

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I loved Cersei watching The Mountain brutalizing the commoners then she just steps right over their entrails with her sexy ass walk.

Arya and The Hound should have a Broadway spinoff. Glad she got to cross Rorge off her little list as fast as she added it.

Tyrion and Bronn were great. I didn't hear anything about Lollys being gang raped behind a tanner's shop so I guess lil' Tyrion Stokeworth will be Bronn's own whelp.

I like that Daenerys is into CFNM. Ser Friendzone does not approve. Is that a raven I hear?

I like that Melisandre is into exhibitionism. I don't like that she wants to burn little Shireen Baratheon. I don't think Stannis will either.

The Hound should pick up some Bactine at the next map store they find.

Brienne is hot this season. Apparently blonde hair and black armor works for me.

HOT PIE!

Glad they put back the story about Cersei pinching Tyrion's baby bits. She really is the evil cunt to end all evil cunts.

I really hope at some point they mention that Prince Oberyn's nickname is "The Red Viper".

Sansa is really good at building snow castles. You Northerners and your summer snows.

Edited by acejack

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I think i'm at the point where i'm done with this forum. At least the show part of it. The amount of constant pessimism and whining just saps any excitement I can muster for this show. There are so many better places to discuss the show. Not even worth it.


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:agree: it's like they're think the Unsullied wouldn't remember Cat as Cat so they changed the entire line. I'm very disappointed.

You really think the writers of the most watched HBO show of all time deliberately changed a line to give the middle finger to a bunch of obsessed nerds online?

It's because no one in show refers to her as Cat.

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Huh, this is really hard for me. They changed so much and there were so many things wrong with this episode, but I still liked it. Can't really say why. Maybe because I laughed so hard at "Call me Petyr!"


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I'm really surprised how critical some are being in this episode's feedback... stunned really. I thought the episode was phenomenal. Easily one of the best this season really... The depth of emotion in nearly all of the actors (except maybe Gregor Clegane and who cares, he's just a giant evil guy with a giant sword) - pretty much all were spot on perfect.

Oberyn / Tyrion scene blew me away... I cried like a baby. I cried for baby Tyrion who knew nothing but torment his whole life from Cersei and pretty much everyone except his brother who protected him. I cried for Elia and her children and the horrific way they died. I cried for Oberyn - because his vengeance is so lost and wasted. :( ... The look of hope in Tyrion's eyes at that moment when Oberyn said he would be his champion. I cried for that lost hope.

Every other scene was awesome too - even the weird Mel / Selyse scene. I liked the "Only Cat" scene even without the trademark two words being said - who cares, the moment was still very intense and well done.

This whole episode seemed to be about relationships between two people who were somewhat adversary yet partnered by fate ... did anyone notice that?

LOVED IT.

I even loved Littlefinger, funny batman villain voice and all. I love him!

Agreed.

I lurked the forums for a while... finally made an account... and then lurked a while more before posting my first post last week.

The negativity about what was (IMO) a great run of episodes made me want to contribute and add my two cents.

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I don't buy that argument. The same argument can be made if one wants to nitpick Cersei calling Jaime the Lord Commander, instead of Jaime or brother. It's just book readers clawing for straws.

I get what you are saying, and I do not think the change is that big of a deal.

However since I had never really thought about the intimacy of saying 'Cat' vs 'your sister', I thought it was nicely put.

I thought that 'Cat' (as opposed to sister, Catelyn, Lady Stark) would conjure up teenage memories for Lysa. Reminding her of LFs preference for Cat even then.

However maybe that is why GRRM went with 'Cat' in the book, and what works in books doesn't necessarily translate well to screen.

Cannot wait for Ep 8. As much as it breaks my heart (Oberyn *sob*)

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Oh, and one thing that really bothering me was the following:



They try to put nude scenes and sex scenes in every episode. Hell, they even write new raping scenes, just to show some boobs. And then there is one sex scene that is actually in the books and is important to the plot and then they don't show it. What the hell?



There is one sex scene that matters and they won't show it. Seriously HBO?!


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I agree. Was glad to see they included it.

That is something that I was close to 100% sure they wouldn't include.

I was grinning like an idiot when I realised where the conversation was going... Then tearing up as it progressed.

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