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[Book Spoilers] EP407 Discussion

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LOL at the hubby. Yes, I was pleasantly surprised at the insta-pyscho. It does leave lots of promise for Sansa dealing with him now, too. I was worried that the show was going too Sweet with Robin. Perhaps it's about the age, too. Like Joffrey, he needs to be a bit of different type of brat. The kid is doing great with the role, too. He was terrific first season, but even without being around year after year like the other kids in the roles, he's doing great. He seemed like the same kid we met in the first season and it seemed effortless for him. Great job.

On a side note, I was a little weirded out the other week about how much Robin seemed to like Uncle Petyr, I'll have to wait and see where that goes.

When I saw that I was instantly reminded of Joff's trolling "Thank you Uncle, we all need wisdom now that the war is over....OMG A VALYRIAN STEEL SWORD! FUCK THAT! *SLICE*" I remember all my unsullied friends being like "Wait wut...Ah that's more like it."

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When I saw that I was instantly reminded of Joff's trolling "Thank you Uncle, we all need wisdom now that the war is over....OMG A VALYRIAN STEEL SWORD! FUCK THAT! *SLICE*" I remember all my unsullied friends being like "Wait wut...Ah that's more like it."

I have noticed that the show does go for the trolling approach with dialogue and actions like Joffrey in the scene you mentioned. It works well, sometimes really well. I love all of TVRoose's extra troll acts, too.

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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didnt notice that. im gonna go watch that again

I can't say for certain what it means, but I thought Nikolai gave a heartbreaking, but quick, guilty look. Hell, I was wondering if he'd spill it right then and there.

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I can't say for certain what it means, but I thought Nikolai gave a heartbreaking, but quick, guilty look. Hell, I was wondering if he'd spill it right then and there.

Agreed. He didn't say anything but I read that look it as him thinking about Tysha and almost telling Tyrion. I guess they have to save that for his release to get him very angry?

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Agreed. He didn't say anything but I read that look it as him thinking about Tysha and almost telling Tyrion. I guess they have to save that for his release to get him very angry?

I do think they are saving Jaime's confession and truth telling for the last jailbreak scenes. That look, quick as it was though, seems to indicate that it's coming. Hell, look at all the book dialogue and rich guy clothes they gave to Bronn for their last scene. All these type of things add up to me thinking it will happen. Damn, NCW can act, I'm still amazed at all I read into that one look. I don't think it was my imagination or my wishful thinking, I try to keep my expectations manageable.

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No way Brienne and LS is happening this season. No absolute way. Despite Brienne wandering, significant things happen. If Brienne and LS happen this season, there is no screentime for Brienne until tWoW and aDoS. Unless D&D go into *future territory* tWoW next season with Brienne's arc, thereby giving away Jaime's arc.

Arya needs to not mercy-kill the Hound, Brienne and Pod need to get to the Quiet Isles for the black stallion and the gravedigger, and the discussion about Sansa, Gendry needs to be reintroduced... not happening this season.

LS revenge killing some Freys, I predict last scene cliffhanger of the season, right after the CotF and BR make their appearance.

Maybe Bran sees LS while looking through a tree?

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Maybe Bran sees LS while looking through a tree?

I wonder what Bran would make of *that*? Is he seeing his mother in his vision as an actual undead thingy, or is he seeing her in his vision not as an actual undead thingy but in a form that is symbolic of something else? And, how could he tell the difference?

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If The Hound simply gets an infection from Biter biting his neck and not some awesome battle, that will truly suck. Especially since Rogue and Biter's scene was perfectly lame. Why just 50 min. episodes? Over the course of the season that is 100 minutes we would get if they were 60 mins. long. Maybe have a battle with Sandor and Rogue and Biter? Maybe do more with Bran to push his importance more. Maybe do anything other than give us 10 episodes that are only 50 mins. long.

Very confusing season. It has some amazing and powerful scenes and some truly weak crap too. Jon Snow and Dany are totally lame this season and I was thinking their stories would be better.

I truly dread next season if they are already out of ideas in season 4. What they hell are they going to do for books 4 and 5 where not a whole hell of a lot happens? That's why I think they are dragging out the attack from Mance and the arrival of Stannis. Those will be next season. I think Lady Stoneheart will be next season too (if they don't cut her out). They would need to show some Dondarrion and Brotherhood Without Banners stuff, which I do not see happening this season at all.

Sort of agree on Daenarys. Totally disagree on Jon. I think that Kit is doing a MUCH better job with the role this season.

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Maybe Bran sees LS while looking through a tree?

Well the cave that LS hides out in does have a bunch of weirwood roots, i think its under High Hearth? the Old Gods are still strong there, so yeah he can probably see her.

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make shit up...nothing else to do...GRRM's fault imo...lazy old coot shouldn't have green lit the show in 2011...should have pushed it till at least 2013, get additional 2 years to write the books...i mean seriously...if he took 5 yrs for AFFC and 6yr for ADwD, how the hell did he expect to finish AWoW and ADoS both in under 7 yrs....HBO doesn't make more than 8 season shows...it is known...

GRRM sold the rights in 2007. That's right: 2007. The show's first season didn't air until 2011. So in addition to all the books published by 2007, GRRM had a four-year head start on the show, and even assuming a seven-season series with a final season airing in 2017, he had 10 years starting in 2007 to publish the remaining three books, and six years from the publication of ADWD to publish TWOW and ADOS.

If it hadn't taken so long to get the series to air in 2011, GRRM's situation would be even more dire. So nope, no sympathy here.

Edited by Newstar

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LS is worse than Ser Robert Strong?

There is not a character in the books that I have really been dissatisfied with.

However George seemed to have pulled him out of the air during one of his ‘riffs’ in storytelling and I really hate that character. He seems superfluous. Have been implications that he is Qyburn's Frankenstein’s monster created out of the dead Gregor Clegane. That’s just a plot device that does not work for me.

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Martin, IMO, is becoming a "victim" of his own success. There's no valid defense for him; it is entirely his own fault that the show will catch up and most likely eclipse the books. He had half of ADwD already penned before he finished Feast and it still took him almost six years to finish dance. While I completely respect his absolute right to do whatever the hell he wants, which includes constantly updating us on all the random, weird shit he's into as well as how the Jets (lol) are doing, I wish he would just realize that he sort of owes it to his readers to finish the damn series, and preferably not by having a television show do it. The man's a brilliant writer but will never be one of the best the way he's gone about this.

I know the comparison is unfair since they're completely different but since LOTR is still brought up often (wrongly, I might add) when discussing ASoIaF, could you imagine if Tolkien pulled this kind of crap? Yes, his was a trilogy, not seven books and yes, they're shorter, but the man still produced one of the greatest works of all time in his three volumes in fifteen months. Amazing. Fellowship in July 1954, Towers in November, Return in October 1955.

I mean its pretty inexcusable AGOTs and Clash were only 3 years apart then Storm 2 years after that. Feast and Dance took five and 6 years respectively and were of a far lesser cut than the original trilogy. So he needs to focus and bang these books out quickly. We should have had Winds by now, and then ADOS should be released in two years.

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I mean its pretty inexcusable AGOTs and Clash were only 3 years apart then Storm 2 years after that. Feast and Dance took five and 6 years respectively and were of a far lesser cut than the original trilogy. So he needs to focus and bang these books out quickly. We should have had Winds by now, and then ADOS should be released in two years.

Exactly. While I enjoyed the political intrigue of Feast and Dance there were way too many lulls and subplots that will go nowhere that should have just been cut out to get to the important things. Way to many characters at this point and too many plotlines. I wish he would have just realized the folly of it all and made the series into five tremendous books. If GRRM decided today or a month ago or a year ago that TWoW would end the series and he just made it like 1,500 pages, combined it with the important stuff from ADoS and released it next year I'd be eternally grateful.

As good as the HBO adaptation is, it's an adaptation. Like any other good work I want to read all the books first and then marvel at the adaptation. When the show eclipses the books even if not all the details are the same, as good as the books are they'll be tainted a bit. And that's an awfully sad thought.

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Agreed. He didn't say anything but I read that look it as him thinking about Tysha and almost telling Tyrion. I guess they have to save that for his release to get him very angry?

Are non book readers familiar enough with the Tysha backstory for it to have an impact? I don't really remember how much they went into it in season 1, but I feel like it was a very brief mentioning. Any chance they make Jaime responsible for keeping Shae from departing KL and have that be his big betrayal of Tyrion? Definitely a sharp departure from his character, but after having him rape Cersei, I wouldn't put it past them to change things up.

Edited by Jameson Snow

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If The Hound simply gets an infection from Biter biting his neck and not some awesome battle, that will truly suck. Especially since Rogue and Biter's scene was perfectly lame. Why just 50 min. episodes? Over the course of the season that is 100 minutes we would get if they were 60 mins. long. Maybe have a battle with Sandor and Rogue and Biter? Maybe do more with Bran to push his importance more. Maybe do anything other than give us 10 episodes that are only 50 mins. long.

Very confusing season. It has some amazing and powerful scenes and some truly weak crap too. Jon Snow and Dany are totally lame this season and I was thinking their stories would be better.

I truly dread next season if they are already out of ideas in season 4. What they hell are they going to do for books 4 and 5 where not a whole hell of a lot happens? That's why I think they are dragging out the attack from Mance and the arrival of Stannis. Those will be next season. I think Lady Stoneheart will be next season too (if they don't cut her out). They would need to show some Dondarrion and Brotherhood Without Banners stuff, which I do not see happening this season at all.

I agree it has been semi hit or miss this season and it makes me worried about season 5. The only thing you have to consider, though, is that season 5 will most likely be comprised of all of books 4 and 5, whereas season 4 is pretty much the second half of book 3. Even though AFFC and ADWD have a lot of fluff I think that by combining them into 1 season, it will result in a lot more plot movement.

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I enjoy the show (and the books) by checking my expectations. It's fun to set them up as long as you can enjoy seeing what comes up that you didn't expect. GRRM isn't a victim or suffering nor are the viewers. He isn't detached from the show. First he was very careful to select the medium and the channel and to interrogate the show creators. They interact. He knows what happens all the way to the last line which last I heard has been written. So the show CANNOT outrun the books. GRRM will build and place his bricks with his usual care at his usual pace and the show will go on and if they are both excellent though not identical how is that not the best of both worlds? GRRM is a smart guy. He knows better than to put the rest of his life on hold or to rush the books.

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Are non book readers familiar enough with the Tysha backstory for it to have an impact? I don't really remember how much they went into it in season 1, but I feel like it was a very brief mentioning. Any chance they make Jaime responsible for keeping Shae from departing KL and have that be his big betrayal of Tyrion? Definitely a sharp departure from his character, but after having him rape Cersei, I wouldn't put it past them to change things up.

If they include the S1 scene with Bronn and Shae where Tyrion talks about Tysha, even if he just says her name and what happened to her, in the "Previously On" I think they'll be able to pull it off. At least it will be planted in the viewer's mind and they still have to have some exchange between Jaime and Tyrion where they spill secrets, although Cersei's love-list is significantly lessened to just Lancel. I hope they find a way to work it in.

I enjoy the show (and the books) by checking my expectations. It's fun to set them up as long as you can enjoy seeing what comes up that you didn't expect. GRRM isn't a victim or suffering nor are the viewers. He isn't detached from the show. First he was very careful to select the medium and the channel and to interrogate the show creators. They interact. He knows what happens all the way to the last line which last I heard has been written. So the show CANNOT outrun the books. GRRM will build and place his bricks with his usual care at his usual pace and the show will go on and if they are both excellent though not identical how is that not the best of both worlds? GRRM is a smart guy. He knows better than to put the rest of his life on hold or to rush the books.

My expectations are fully checked-it's just fair criticism. The show will finish first. Yes, the show will include elements of Winds and Spring that haven't fully been fleshed out and are therefore rushed by GRRM. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that GRRM is entirely concentrating not on finishing either book but only finishing the main parts that need to be done to finish the show, which still-- while I'll appreciate it and don't doubt for a second that the adaptation will do a great job with that material--is a very sad notion.

It's not sad that the reality now is that he won't get close to finishing probably either of the books before the show ends-it's sad that he put himself in that position, purposely, I might add, long ago.

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I think it would be sad to see his books rushed or the show degrade but I don't foresee that happening. I think it would be tragic if fans would rather he try to rush his writing and forego his own life which happens to include a megaton of fan interaction and fun. If he just stopped writing now, (forget the show) it's still a great yarn and there's still a nice body of work. Remember after all his TV writing this series was written without thought if budget and set constraints - any constraints really (yeah see how fast gold melts in a stewpot over a cook fire) that don't violate his rules and you could write extended short stories around several characters. We're already ahead. Everything we get is a gift. YMMV

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