[Book Spoilers] Nitpick With Impunity

[Arkash]

Where the hell are the Eyrie in the credit ?

[Bori]

Everything Biter and Rorge. For us book readers kind of make sense to have Biter bite Sandor because he's...you know, Biter. But it just looked stupid from a non-reader perspective. Like, why not stab him or something? And Arya killing Rorge was a bit cheap/easy/hollywoodish

:agree: Moreover, if they were hiding there for this long they surely heard Arya introducing herself (which, by the way, she didn't used to do). I know that they supposed to be dull-witted but even they should know that the Stark girl worth more than the Hound...

And yes, I'm one of the few, who actually missed the "Only Cat". I was sitting there, rubbing my hands, expecting, expecting, and...no. Maybe it's a trade mark of HBO. They did the same thing in Rome when Caesar was killed and everybody waiting for his famous last sentence about Brutus...but no.

[Aethermancer]

The whole Jorah/Dany/Yunkai business was really stupid. Dany already gave them a chance to live back in season 3 - "I have a gift for you as well. Your life ... And the lives of your 'Wise Masters', but I also want something in return. You will release every slave in Yunkai ... Reject this gift, and I shall show you no mercy."

They took the gift and then went back on her deal.

...(snip)...

I could continue, but I won't. The bottom line is that D&D are not conveying any of this. The message they're sending us is that Dany is being too harsh on the slavers. And what's their reasoning for this? Jorah's "I would be dead too under your command"? There's simply no logic to that! Jorah sold slaves once; under Dany's rule he may be dead, but most likely (like the majority of the slavers), he would have been given a second chance. If Ned had pardoned Jorah and he had betrayed that by selling slaves again, does anyone honestly think Ned would give him a second chance at mercy?

No, they did exactly as she requested (in the books as well). They opened their gates and released every slave in Yunkai. Dany then rode off for Mereen. Yunkai just acquired more slaves after she left. Imagine Dany going to a bank and saying, "Zero out everyone's debt, or else!" So the bank goes and zeroes everyone's debt. Then later, someone takes a loan from them. Dany never said stop being slavers, just turn over all your slaves to me.

In short: Dany never outlawed slavery. She never conquered Yunkai, she demanded tribute in the form of slaves, which she later freed.

[Brother Walfrid]

I'm usually really hard on the episodes & in general really enjoyed this one. I'm also usually a HUGE Dany fan though & that is what I hated about this episode.

"Take off your clothes" how RI-DIC-U-LOUS!

Emilia Clarke is gorgeous but she has got to get more emotions than the "I am the blood of the dragon do as I command spoiled brat used to getting what I want" tone.

Would you have preferred "I am your queen, and I command you to fuck me"

[of man and wolf]

- That Arya monologue about nothing.... my goodness was that cringeworthy. It tried way too hard to be pseudo-philosophical and deep, and just fell flat and failed.

- Brienne seems too loud and snarky. I prefer the quiet and shy book!Brienne.

- Tyrion isn't bitter enough yet. He still felt the need to be cracking little jokes with Jaime in his usual tone. Something needs to change, cause after episode 8 he's sitting out episode 9, and when we see him again in 10 he is gonna need to be very different.

- The scene between Melisandre and Selyse was kind of pointless, apart from Carice's beautiful naked body. I would have much preferred a Stannis scene.

- Jon's scene was pointless, apart from introducing Yarwyck. We get it, Alliser Thorne's an asshole.

But the worst offender of all....

Dany didn't go naked, and we didn't see the sex scene. Seriously HBO? You throw in so many pointless and gratuitous sex scenes that when one comes up that's actually relevant to the story and characters, you just essentially do a fade to black? Maybe it sounds a little pervy, but I was actually looking forward to seeing that scene. It's not as if the ladies would be annoyed either. We saw Daario take his stuff off. This episode was a very short 51 minutes, why not just include their sex scene to add another couple of minutes? Unlike the others it's actually relevant to the story and characters.

Ok, I realize that last nitpick is a bit dumb, but oh well. A man can have his hopes.

I believe I read somewhere that dany is done getting nude for the show. Emilia I should say.

[PatrickStormborn]

No, they did exactly as she requested (in the books as well). They opened their gates and released every slave in Yunkai. Dany then rode off for Mereen. Yunkai just acquired more slaves after she left. Imagine Dany going to a bank and saying, "Zero out everyone's debt, or else!" So the bank goes and zeroes everyone's debt. Then later, someone takes a loan from them. Dany never said stop being slavers, just turn over all your slaves to me.

She told them to release the slaves, which they did. But then they resumed slavery immediately after she left and re-enslaved those they had freed. I'm sure they were very well aware that this was a rejection of Dany's "gift" to them.

[Jamie Lannister]

I admittedly can't remember how exactly it went down in the book, but Sansa seemed unduly bitchy with Sweet Robin. I mean, he accidentally knocks over a little snow tower, apologizes and says they can rebuild it, and she completely flips her shit? Didn't he flail in destroying things left and right before she actually lost her temper?

[of man and wolf]

The whole Jorah/Dany/Yunkai business was really stupid. Dany already gave them a chance to live back in season 3 - "I have a gift for you as well. Your life ... And the lives of your 'Wise Masters', but I also want something in return. You will release every slave in Yunkai ... Reject this gift, and I shall show you no mercy."

They took the gift and then went back on her deal. And now Jorah wants her to give them another chance? It just shows me - once again - that the writers don't have a great understanding of the source material. Dany's problem ISN'T that she was too ruthless - the problem is that crucifying 163 Great Masters was ineffective because it didn't change the power structure in Meereen, it just further antagonised the slavers. And now they're presenting Dany's mercy to the Wise Masters of Yunkai as a good idea? No experienced leader would have crucified 163 Great Masters, true, but no leader worth following would give the Wise Masters a second chance of mercy.

They've just made Dany look totally stupid for some reason. In the books she was naive, inexperienced and idealistic, yes, but never stupid.

I don't know why I even put this in the "nitpick" thread. It's three seasons' worth of mischaracterisation culminating in terrible decision and after terrible decision on behalf of the writers. In fact, they're making a bigger mess of Meereen than Dany herself did.

And before anyone jumps in and says something inane like "OMG they totes understand the material", I'm gonna stress that no, they seriously don't. They've probably read ADwD what - once, twice, maybe three times at a push? I've certainly read Dany's chapters more than that, and I've engaged in discussions about her arc in that book for almost 3 years now(!), and still there's no general consensus about what happened in her arc: some think she becomes basically a substitute Harpy; some think she was completely ineffective in dealing with the slavers; some think she was ineffective but also too cruel; some think she should have never turned to Slaver's Bay in the first place; some think she was motivated purely by greed; some think she's heading towards madness; some think she wasn't ruthless enough; some think she just lacked foresight...

I could continue, but I won't. The bottom line is that D&D are not conveying any of this. The message they're sending us is that Dany is being too harsh on the slavers. And what's their reasoning for this? Jorah's "I would be dead too under your command"? There's simply no logic to that! Jorah sold slaves once; under Dany's rule he may be dead, but most likely (like the majority of the slavers), he would have been given a second chance. If Ned had pardoned Jorah and he had betrayed that by selling slaves again, does anyone honestly think Ned would give him a second chance at mercy?

And this is further proof that D&D are just not comparable to GRRM, who makes the reader question Dany's actions without trying to sell to us the idea that slavery is a crime that can be forgiven. Tyrion's master, for example, is a fair enough man; he wants to respect the peace with Daenerys and he doesn't particularly mistreat Tyrion, Penny or Jorah; in fact, some of his slaves even like him! But GRRM makes him (and some other slavers) complex and grey without turning Dany into Viserys.

(And let's be real, a lot of this could be avoided if the writing staff and production team was more diverse. Instead it's a bunch of straight white men who probably all have the same opinions on the story.)

I think one can read the book 3 times and get a pretty good understanding of anything in the books. It's not THAT difficult. You make it sound like someone needs to have read it 6 times for anyone to even begin to contemplate the issues brought about from the books.

[solidviper]

I was looking for a more bitter Tyrion, and we saw some of that in the scene with Jaime, which was nice, but I guess I expected more? Maybe it's coming idk.

I was not spoiled on the moon door scene, and I thought it was fantastic. I actually stood up with my mouth open when he did that.

I thought the Dany/Daario scene could have been more sexy.

The Red Woman scene was incredibly boring (as I feel with all her scenes). That's probably my biggest nitpick with this episode because her scenes are always so forgettable for me (minus the leech one)

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

I admittedly can't remember how exactly it went down in the book, but Sansa seemed unduly bitchy with Sweet Robin. I mean, he accidentally knocks over a little snow tower, apologizes and says they can rebuild it, and she completely flips her shit? Didn't he flail in destroying things left and right before she actually lost her temper?

Yep. He has one of his "seizures" if I remember...which the show appears to have cut from his character entirely. Sansa acted like a bitch to him in the show, if you ask me. Scene was way too rushed.

[Aethermancer]

She told them to release the slaves, which they did. But then they resumed slavery immediately after she left and re-enslaved those they had freed. I'm sure they were very well aware that this was a rejection of Dany's "gift" to them.

You are mistaking what she did. I edited my post with a summary (sorry) which described a bit better what Dany did.

She did the same thing that the Dothraki did, she rode up with an army, demanded tribute in exchange for not sacking the city, received said tribute, and she left without sacking the city. She never actually conquered Yunkai. If she wanted slavery abolished, she needed to actually change the government (as in Astapor and Mereen), but she didn't do that with Yunkai.

If she were to return to Yunkai and then make further demands, she would be seen as belligerant (well, MORE than she is now). That's exactly what she fears in the books. She said so to the Astaporean Ambassador when they wanted her to wage ware on Yunkai with them. That is what Jorah is advocating in this scene.

The deal she made with Yunkai was completed when they fulfilled their end of the bargain.

[Aethermancer]

I was not spoiled on the moon door scene, and I thought it was fantastic. I actually stood up with my mouth open when he did that.

This is a DANGEROUS forum to be on if you wish to remain unspoiled. Actually it's more than dangerous, even reading thread titles is going to give away pretty much everything.

[tallTale]

What was up with the Mountain just killing slaves for no reason.

Made no sense, even if he is sadistic there would be more to his bloodlust than just mindless butchering.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think one can read the book 3 times and get a pretty good understanding of anything in the books. It's not THAT difficult. You make it sound like someone needs to have read it 6 times for anyone to even begin to contemplate the issues brought about from the books.

I know, I didn't really word that properly... My main point was that D&D have obviously not engaged with the material to the extent that the fans on this board have, and even we can't agree on any sort of conclusion... because there isn't one. GRRM writes to ask the reader questions; D&D write to give the viewer answers, but this is a problem because there aren't answers to the problems they're presenting.

I'm basing their understanding of ADwD purely on what I'm seeing on the screen, and I'm not feeling hopeful at all. They're literally presenting Cersei as more composed than Daenerys - Cersei, the alcoholic narcissist who abused her brother and - at least in the books - had children murdered. But please, tell me that they understand the source material.

You are mistaking what she did. I edited my post with a summary (sorry) which described a bit better what Dany did.

She did the same thing that the Dothraki did, she rode up with an army, demanded tribute in exchange for not sacking the city, received said tribute, and she left without sacking the city. She never actually conquered Yunkai. If she wanted slavery abolished, she needed to actually change the government (as in Astapor and Mereen), but she didn't do that with Yunkai.

If she were to return to Yunkai and then make further demands, she would be seen as belligerant (well, MORE than she is now). That's exactly what she fears in the books. She said so to the Astaporean Ambassador when they wanted her to wage ware on Yunkai with them. That is what Jorah is advocating in this scene.

The deal she made with Yunkai was completed when they fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Well, this is just a matter of semantics, really. This is what Dany told Grey Worm: "Tell the slavers I will meet them here, to accept their surrender. Otherwise Yunkai will suffer the same fate as Astapor." She then tells the envoy to "release every slave in Yunkai", or she will show them "no mercy". They comply with her demands, but they immediately re-enslave the freed slaves who did not follow Dany. Clearly her intention was to end slavery in the region, not just free those who were already free. Perhaps the Yunkai'i merely misunderstood her, but I think that's far from the truth; they simply saw she was gone and decided to reject her authority.

So I just don't understand why Dany should show them mercy. She should either leave them alone (like in the books) and march on Astapor instead (which she couldn't do in the books because of the Sons of the Harpy, who are not yet a problem on the show), or march to Yunkai and sack the city.

[Aethermancer]

Yep. He has one of his "seizures" if I remember...which the show appears to have cut from his character entirely. Sansa acted like a bitch to him in the show, if you ask me. Scene was way too rushed.

That's exactly what I feel the problem was. No time to actually build up the scenes with real dialog and confer an understanding. They could have easily kept the "Only Cat" line as well if they just let Lysa rant a bit more about how she 'loved him more than my sister Cat ever did'. Maybe in her rant to Sansa she could talk about how "You look like Cat, but my sister..." and so on.

With less than 10 words of dialog, the Eyrie scenes could have felt a lot more 'smooth' and less rushed.

[solidviper]

This is a DANGEROUS forum to be on if you wish to remain unspoiled. Actually it's more than dangerous, even reading thread titles is going to give away pretty much everything.

I understand. I don't mind being spoiled honestly because I end up enjoying the episodes anyways. Plus I'm in the middle of reading the books so either way I'm getting spoiled on one medium or another. It was just interesting to me because even being on this forum by choice, I wasn't spoiled on the moon door. It was pretty cool lol

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

That's exactly what I feel the problem was. No time to actually build up the scenes with real dialog and confer an understanding. They could have easily kept the "Only Cat" line as well if they just let Lysa rant a bit more about how she 'loved him more than my sister Cat ever did'. Maybe in her rant to Sansa she could talk about how "You look like Cat, but my sister..." and so on.

With less than 10 words of dialog, the Eyrie scenes could have felt a lot more 'smooth' and less rushed.

And it wasnt like they were pressed for time either. The episode was only 51 minutes long I think.

[MarieAntoinette]

The Eyrie scenes felt rushed. Sansa building the snow castle wasn't sad or emotional enough, I loved this scene in the book, it was so full of sadness, and they did not convey this on the show.

[Cas Stark]

I know, I didn't really word that properly... My main point was that D&D have obviously not engaged with the material to the extent that the fans on this board have, and even we can't agree on any sort of conclusion... because there isn't one. GRRM writes to ask the reader questions; D&D write to give the viewer answers, but this is a problem because there aren't answers to the problems they're presenting.

I'm basing their understanding of ADwD purely on what I'm seeing on the screen, and I'm not feeling hopeful at all. They're literally presenting Cersei as more composed than Daenerys - Cersei, the alcoholic narcissist who abused her brother and - at least in the books - had children murdered. But please, tell me that they understand the source material.

Well, this is just a matter of semantics, really. This is what Dany told Grey Worm: "Tell the slavers I will meet them here, to accept their surrender. Otherwise Yunkai will suffer the same fate as Astapor." She then tells the envoy to "release every slave in Yunkai", or she will show them "no mercy". They comply with her demands, but they immediately re-enslave the freed slaves who did not follow Dany. Clearly her intention was to end slavery in the region, not just free those who were already free. Perhaps the Yunkai'i merely misunderstood her, but I think that's far from the truth; they simply saw she was gone and decided to reject her authority.

So I just don't understand why Dany should show them mercy. She should either leave them alone (like in the books) and march on Astapor instead (which she couldn't do in the books because of the Sons of the Harpy, who are not yet a problem on the show), or march to Yunkai and sack the city.

The dialogue between Dany and Jorah could have literally been lifted from any number of conversations about her actions in Meereen on this forum, since there is a strong divide between those fans who see the world as black and white [OMG slavery is evil so everyone in a slave society should die!!] and those who see things in shaded of grey and feel her decisions in Meereen are sketchy, so I don't see what there is to complain about.

She has been portrayed as a messiah UNTIL the last two episodes,LOL.

[Aethermancer]

So I just don't understand why Dany should show them mercy. She should either leave them alone (like in the books) and march on Astapor instead (which she couldn't do in the books because of the Sons of the Harpy, who are not yet a problem on the show), or march to Yunkai and sack the city.

It's because of the medium. It's harder to have expositionary dialog of a character's inner thoughts, so they have to have them react in dialog with other characters. She had her plan, and Jorah became her surrogate 'inner reason' voice which let her then take the actions she took. She is quite angry in the books as well, but we get to hear this scene play out in her head. When you take it out of her head, you then need to have dialog which makes sense for the other 'sounding board' characters as well.

The biggest problem is that it's all jammed together right now, so they haven't even revealed the 'Sons of the Harpy' yet, which I believe occured long before the Yunkish/Astapor delegations came to her city. So what you are seeing is a bit of the weirdness of trying to move events earlier and then watching as the plot holes appear.