[Book Spoilers] Role reversal on the Wall?

[Runaway Penguin]

For that it is better to barricade exit (which actually was result of the ice fall when the stairs burned in the book) - no need to block the tunnel, actually you want enemies in that killing ground. Block them at the exit, then pour all kids of nasty stuff through murder holes in the ceiling. Plus you had two additional grilles inside the tunnel.

Kind of why sometimes garrisons of forts did not repair breaches, it was better to know where the enemy main effort came. So instead the breaches were trapped and mined...

[sj4iy]

In Season 5, wouldn't Jon's main reason to block that gate, ie the fuck off giants and 100,000 Wildlings, be gone, essentially? The plan is to make Jon look clever and Thorne dumb when the king of Giants busts through the gate

^This. In any case, Marsh's suggestion was long after the battle with the Wildlings...Jon isn't suggesting it in the same scenario.

[King Tommen]

"We've got 100 men to defend this entrance against an army of 100,000. Maybe sealing the entrance shut makes the most sense."

"We may want to ride our horses into the middle of buttfuck nowhere after this whole epic confrontation is finished with and we totally win with our 100 men, so I think that entrance should stay open just in case we feel like doing that."

-Night's Watch logic

[sj4iy]

"We've got 100 men to defend this entrance against an army of 100,000. Maybe sealing the entrance shut makes the most sense."

"We may want to ride our horses into the middle of buttfuck nowhere after this whole epic confrontation is finished with and we totally win with our 100 men, so I think that entrance should stay open just in case we feel like doing that."

-Night's Watch logic

ie: "Anything to piss off Jon Snow and goad him into doing something stupid"

[Fat Trell]

To be fair; sealing the gate would have just meant Mance would have marched elsewhere. Forcing Mance to march on the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch would have spread the Watch thinner. Better to have them attack a known defensible position then 2 or more less defensible ones on the opposite sides of a continent.

Frankly the situation shouldn't be nearly as dire on the show given that Marsh never marched off to the Bridge of Skulls with most of the remaining garrison.

[sj4iy]

To be fair; sealing the gate would have just meant Mance would have marched elsewhere. Forcing Mance to march on the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch would have spread the Watch thinner. Better to have them attack a known defensible position then 2 or more less defensible ones on the opposite sides of a continent.

Frankly the situation shouldn't be nearly as dire on the show given that Marsh never marched off to the Bridge of Skulls with most of the remaining garrison.

Jon's right in that they don't have the manpower to stop the Wildlings. The Giants are capable of tearing out the gate if they are given the opportunity (we see the gate break in the books because of Mag the Mighty's attack on it). No matter what they do, 100 men isn't enough to defend the gate from an attack on both sides. I guess we'll see how it plays through, though. I don't like judging too quickly based on one short scene in this episode when we still have two more episodes to go.

[Darryk]

I think it's trying to show that Jon is the only one taking that threat of Rayder so seriously that he would be willing to take such extreme measures.

I like this change. It (like other bits and pieces) are developing Jon Snow as competent leader material, thereby making the LC election far less contrived than it is in the book.

If you knew that you were facing an army in the tens of thousands, and you only had several hundred to defend, sealing up your defences is easily the most logical choice.

These.

Jon's plan is the right one, and will probably be proven so when the giant attacks the gate in episode 9. The point is to show his competent leadership abilities not being acknowledged by the elitists of the NW.

Criticizing the change based on story threads that may or may not happen in season 5 is jumping the gun somewhat. We really don't know if Bowen Marsh and Jon will ever have that discussion in the show, or if Marsh will even feature at all.

[Ser Oromus Locke]

Yeah, they've pretty much destroyed Jon's entire arc these past two seasons so at this point I'm really not all that surprised. This whole season on the Wall has just been filler anyways, which makes the fact that the took so many short cuts during Jon's time beyond the Wall all the more frustrating.

If they had just taken the time to do it right to begin with, Jon could easily still be with the Wildings, just about to make the climb and the next season could start with the Wildling attack happening as it did in the books. Now its all become rather confused and it is difficult to really take the Wildling threat seriously as their size and strength is mostly just implied at this point.

What are you talking about? Why should the next season start with the wildling attack "as it did in the books"? The wildlings came at the end of Book3, not the beginning of Book5..

And about it being confused, I think it's pretty darn clear. Jon is constantly referring to the threat from the beyond the Wall, even going as far as going after the mutineers to keep their secrets, and we've been reminded of the wildlings south of the Wall as well. LIterally everything Jon Snow this season has been saying to viewers: There's a clash coming from both the North and South of the Wall. What this season isn't telling us is that Stannis is going to arrive just in time, though this episode kinda did tell us that Mel, Selyse and Shireen are also moving away from Dragonstone.. anybody with a bit of memory would remember where to.

Implied strength? Pretty sure they've been saying 100000 men + giants this entire time. That's not implied, that's explicitly stated. Not to mention that Jon has stated to Ygritte that the wildlings are largely untrained. In my personal opinion, the remarks we get on the Wildling host are extremely close to the ones we get in the book: They have large numbers (in the show explicitely stated, dunno if that was true in the books), but the majority of their host is filled with women and children that have also left their homes.

I don't think Jon's storyline has been destroyed. Far from it, yes they've added that Craster's Keep-plot, and effed up with Sam, but if you really want to want to take a gander at a top three of destroyed storyline, then that pretty much was all Sam, Sam and Sam.

Yarwyck is the character everyone has assumed is Bowen Marsh.

This left me confused as well..

The below is from trailers, so you may not want to know what's apparently happening:

Aren't there clips in trailers of Tormund fighting Alliser, and of Grenn in the tunnel? Plus Grenn's support of Jon's suggestion could be ironic foreshadowing of the prediction by many that Grenn will be the one to die stopping the giant.

Noooooo!!!!!!! Not him! This season is going to leave the cast in shambles! :'(

I mean they already killed off Rorge and Biter! :'(

To be fair; sealing the gate would have just meant Mance would have marched elsewhere. Forcing Mance to march on the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch would have spread the Watch thinner. Better to have them attack a known defensible position then 2 or more less defensible ones on the opposite sides of a continent.

Frankly the situation shouldn't be nearly as dire on the show given that Marsh never marched off to the Bridge of Skulls with most of the remaining garrison.

This is Mance's strategy in the books, maybe they already have sent Bowen to the Shadow Tower to deal with this strategy?

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

How about getting a first look at Yarwick?

Yeah, Bowen Marsh from season one suddenly became Yarwyck in season 4.

[Hiram McDrogon]

actually you want enemies in that killing ground. Block them at the exit, then pour all kids of nasty stuff through murder holes in the ceiling.

Thank you for the beautiful typo. "OK, we've got the vats of oil heating up, so that's ready ... hey, but we need another barrel of toddlers with ADHD here, hurry up!"

[sj4iy]

Yeah, Bowen Marsh from season one suddenly became Yarwyck in season 4.

You mean the guy who was never once called Bowen Marsh in the show in season 1?

[Mad Monkey]

ie: "Anything to piss off Jon Snow and goad him into doing something stupid"

I feel like Ser Alliser is now making important command decisions specifically for the purpose of pissing Jon off. It's to the point where he doesn't make any decisions without directly addressing Jon to ensure that he is upset about them. I wonder what would have happened if Jon had been all, "Yes, Lord Alliser, that's a brilliant idea. We need to have that tunnel open at all costs."

It kind of fits with Alliser's personality though. He seems to dislike Jon because Jon isn't his friend despite both of them being one of the few aristocrats on the Wall.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

You mean the guy who was never once called Bowen Marsh in the show in season 1?

I mean the actor that confirmed that was who he was. That guy. ;)

[sj4iy]

I feel like Ser Alliser is now making important command decisions specifically for the purpose of pissing Jon off. It's to the point where he doesn't make any decisions without directly addressing Jon to ensure that he is upset about them. I wonder what would have happened if Jon had been all, "Yes, Lord Alliser, that's a brilliant idea. We need to have that tunnel open at all costs."

It kind of fits with Alliser's personality though. He seems to dislike Jon because Jon isn't his friend despite both of them being one of the few aristocrats on the Wall.

I think it's more that he feels threatened by Jon. Here's a guy that, before Jon came, was essentially the next-in-line for Lord Commander. When he saw Jon and how the LC took a shining to him, it pissed him off more and more. Now he just seems to live for thwarting Jon, even if it's a terrible idea. But it does fit his personality.

[sj4iy]

I mean the actor that confirmed that was who he was. That guy. ;)

...yet was never once, in the show, called "Bowen Marsh" or "Lord Steward".

When you don't do that, then nothing's set in stone at all.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

...yet was never once, in the show, called "Bowen Marsh" or "Lord Steward".

When you don't do that, then nothing's set in stone at all.

Yet was still confirmed as Bowen Marsh by actors and others. I never said it was set in stone, did I? I made a simple comment. Bowen Marsh turned into Yarwyck. It happens. Its the Bowen-Yarwyck phenomenon.

[Fat Trell]

I think it's more that he feels threatened by Jon. Here's a guy that, before Jon came, was essentially the next-in-line for Lord Commander. When he saw Jon and how the LC took a shining to him, it pissed him off more and more. Now he just seems to live for thwarting Jon, even if it's a terrible idea. But it does fit his personality.

Alliser was at no point next in line to be Lord Commander. At the time of the choosing his name is never even mentioned iirc. And that was after multiple strong candidates(Qhorin Halfhand, Benjen Stark, Jeremy Rykker, etc.) had all been killed off in rapid succession.

[King Tommen]

Yet was still confirmed as Bowen Marsh by actors and others. I never said it was set in stone, did I? I made a simple comment. Bowen Marsh turned into Yarwyck. It happens. Its the Bowen-Yarwyck phenomenon.

The GoT Wiki guys (who are in no way affiliated with the show) are the ones who jumped to that conclusion in S1 and the rest of the fanbase ran with it. Brian Fortune was never referred to as anything other than "man of the Night's Watch" in the credits or by anyone associated with the show. They decided to make him Yarwyck this season.

The Bowen Marsh stuff was never a thing. Just some overzealous fans jumping to conclusions.

[Runaway Penguin]

It is clear that Thorne is trying to get Jon into open defiance and then on chopping block, but that is not the question here... The question is why an aggressive young man (who moreover knows that Wall can be climbed even by quite substantial group of men) suddenly turned into "let's seal off the tunnel and sit on the top"...Just cannot help to feel that a. this goes completely against Jon as LC in the books (after all the suggestion made much more sense when there were already no substantial human populations to the North and this mythical enemy coming in). Thorne's position is simply that of a skilled soldier who knows the value of tactics and reconnaissance, while Jon's idea (series wise) is the Maginot Line thinking.

Yes, the Giant broke through the outer gate in the book. That just meant that had 3 more gates and a barricade to go - and he was stopped on the first of the inner gates, effectively blocking the tunnel. What was the bigger threat to NW was running out of weapons - and that threat would be much more pronounced if they had to stretch defenses over wider area than the mile or so to each side of castle Black, concentrating on the gate. Block the gate... And you then have to defend much bigger length of the Wall. Plus, if the enemy decides to move out and strike elsewhere (after all Mance MIGHT know about the secret passage), you cannot send out patrols to track him as the gate will be shut.

Dunno, it just feels weird to me to have "cautious old men" emphasizing active defense and Jon going the "old man's way".this way, if the discussion gets ever revisited, it would seem that Jon changed his mind "just to be against Thorne again".

(Another weird thing, as I already mentioned, is describing the process of blocking the gate like he was explaining an unknown concept... If anything, it should have been the First Builder to tell the method)

[Yojimbo]

The GoT Wiki guys (who are in no way affiliated with the show) are the ones who jumped to that conclusion in S1 and the rest of the fanbase ran with it. Brian Fortune was never referred to as anything other than "man of the Night's Watch" in the credits or by anyone associated with the show. They decided to make him Yarwyck this season.

The Bowen Marsh stuff was never a thing. Just some overzealous fans jumping to conclusions.

Well, it seems the actor himself was under the impression at the time his 'character' would/could come back and he would like to see his 'character' come back into it because there so many directions it could go in and the characters are all so fleshed out and by the fact the 'character' he played in season 1, plays the exact same role Bowen played in Game of Thrones (book).

Source

But of course it just us overzealous book fans right? "Man of the Nights Watch" was actually going to be Azor Ahai reborn! "The prince that was promised!"........................or more likely he was Bowen Marsh but the writers decided to scrap that character.