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[Book Spoilers] Role reversal on the Wall?


Runaway Penguin

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It is clear that Thorne is trying to get Jon into open defiance and then on chopping block, but that is not the question here... The question is why an aggressive young man (who moreover knows that Wall can be climbed even by quite substantial group of men) suddenly turned into "let's seal off the tunnel and sit on the top"...Just cannot help to feel that a. this goes completely against Jon as LC in the books (after all the suggestion made much more sense when there were already no substantial human populations to the North and this mythical enemy coming in). Thorne's position is simply that of a skilled soldier who knows the value of tactics and reconnaissance, while Jon's idea (series wise) is the Maginot Line thinking.

Yes, the Giant broke through the outer gate in the book. That just meant that had 3 more gates and a barricade to go - and he was stopped on the first of the inner gates, effectively blocking the tunnel. What was the bigger threat to NW was running out of weapons - and that threat would be much more pronounced if they had to stretch defenses over wider area than the mile or so to each side of castle Black, concentrating on the gate. Block the gate... And you then have to defend much bigger length of the Wall. Plus, if the enemy decides to move out and strike elsewhere (after all Mance MIGHT know about the secret passage), you cannot send out patrols to track him as the gate will be shut.

Dunno, it just feels weird to me to have "cautious old men" emphasizing active defense and Jon going the "old man's way".this way, if the discussion gets ever revisited, it would seem that Jon changed his mind "just to be against Thorne again".

(Another weird thing, as I already mentioned, is describing the process of blocking the gate like he was explaining an unknown concept... If anything, it should have been the First Builder to tell the method)

Problem is, you cannot compare the book situation with this one.

What Jon knows in the show: Mance is coming with an army of 100.000 , and he has giants. He also knows that the Wall will be attacked simultanously from the south as well - that's a big difference from the Book. He knows the Wall is vulnarable from the south so most of their manpower will be needed against the Thenns. He just doesn't want to take his chances against a giant opening up the gate for Mance's army while they have the Thenn-attack from the south.

The reason why Thorne (and book-Jon) didn't want to seal the gate is the ability to go out ranging. Right now, there is no need for that, as Jon just arrived back, spotting Mance's army, so they basicly know everything they have to about that attack, even the timing. Right now, there is no reason to send out rangers.

Book-Jon's situation was not so clear. He didn't expect a wildling attack within a week(?): he was waiting for the Others, and he didn't know anything about them - so it makes sense to leave the Gate open. Not to mention all those wildlings who may still arrive at the Wall and Jon wanted to avoid them turning into wights so he needs an open gate to let them through.

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So your saying two people can't hate each other? And not distrust each other? Who ever said being 'blinded' by hate made some one smart?

Blinded by hate is one thing (though it is nice and convenient). That neither Mallister nor Pyke bothered to check the validity of Sam's story is quite another. Which is the point I was making.

Well, am pretty sure if Mormount had a crystal ball and actually knew about the Others (not just the wights) he probly would have had second thoughts about taking his men out to find out what is happening with the wildlings, why his First Ranger has gone missing and two of the men who set out with him turned up dead, only to be reanimated as walking corpse's.

The force Mormont took was both too large and too small. It was too small to hope to give battle, and too large to effectively scout. It made the Watch men sitting ducks. In short, it was insanity, but it had the all-too convenient effect of killing off Jon Snow's rivals.

Well, the last time they sent a Brother out to King's Landing to report on the wights and ask for help, look how that turned out. Why shouldn't the Night Watch send out other requests for help, when they didn't recieve the help they asked for the first time, they where only given the dregs from there dungeons and they didn't even show up. When what they really needed is well trained knights and men-at-arms, Tywin could have sent men, he didn't he saw it as an insult and a sign of betrayal.

Does Tywin Lannister have a good track record with the Watch? No. Is he the only guy in a position to send anyone North at all? Yes. Is antagonising him for no purpose at all unbelievably stupid? Double Yes.

You mean the same 'traitor' 16 year old, who reported back to Castle Black on the incoming wildling attack, stopped the wildlings from taking Castle Black and then held Mance's and his army back for several days until the rest of the Brothers returned from East Watch, who was a steward to the last LC precisely for the role for being tutored in leadership. Not to mention being as Ned Stark was Warden of the North and being the actual brother of Benjen Stark, I have a hard time believing most north men in the watch believed he was ever a traitor anyway.

Jon Snow is the fourth youngest LC in eight thousand years, with the three younger ones being political appointments (i.e. relatives of the Lords of Winterfell). Since there are no political advantages to Jon (only massive disadvantages), Jon is thus the youngest "purely merit" appointment ever - merit that involved vanishingly brief service, and running off to the Wildings. That the appointment was made with winter coming on only makes it doubly stupid.

Mallister a old man who propley wouldn't even see the next summer and Pyke who can't even read or write and is on the brink of the twilight years himself where the leading candidates, yet a 16 year old who could read and write couldn't do what they could do? I guess then if age is reason alone, then Alexander the Great must have been in his 90's right?

See above regarding Jon's exceptional age. Age and experience matter. Heck, why not Edd Tollett as LC then? He can (presumably) read and write too.

He did nothing? You mean dealing with Stannis the king who saved the Night's Watch and the realm from the wildling invasion was nothing? Or the fact that Jon even didn't have to put his name forward because his friends where making the effort of doing that for him.

I mean the latter. The election was entirely Sam's idea and project. Sam is the proactive one here - not Jon, who as is normal for his book incarnation, just sits there and gets everything handed to him without any initiative on his part. Other characters move Jon's storyline along for him. Thank goodness TV!Jon is different.

Are they just going to 'wish' the tunnel is to be sealed frozen shut? Where are they going to get that amount of unfrozen water water prey tell? Because if they are going to start melting snow and ice then, the Nights Watch better start chopping down insane amounts of tree's to get the fire's going.

Seeing as the idea is mooted in both book and show, and no-one complains about lack of wood, I think its feasibility is without question.

And you don't have to 'aim', you drop a barrel off the wall perpendicular to the gate and let gravity do the rest, what is so hard about that?. And I don't know where you live but when I've got to dig a few feet of just snow out of my drive-way when it winter it never been 'easy' work and that's with the benefit of not having arrows, barrels of ice and burning pitch raining down on my head..........I couldn't even imagine what it must be like to try to break up and clear blocks of ice that weigh a few tons and being assulted by deadly objects at the same time would be like............

Have you got any idea how high 700 feet is? From that height, the accuracy of any attempted drop goes out the window (that includes arrows too - Martin doesn't realise how high 700 feet is either). And I repeat: hacking through broken chunks is easier than hacking through solid ice. By your own reasoning, would it not be more effective defence to chuck stuff at them while they're dealing with a much more daunting task?

And even if they did manage to some how block the tunnel with ice in time before Mance arrived, wouldn't Mance just go attack at East Watch or Shadow Tower, wouldn't the Watch have to start this process of all over again?

Yep. Wall 'em up. As long as the tens of thousands of Wildings are on one side of the Wall, their massive superiority of numbers doesn't matter.

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I think it's trying to show that Jon is the only one taking that threat of Rayder so seriously that he would be willing to take such extreme measures.

Yep.

Also, a quick question - does Donal Noye exist in the show??? Because he's one of my favourite minor characters in the books.

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Yep.

Also, a quick question - does Donal Noye exist in the show??? Because he's one of my favourite minor characters in the books.

Doesn't look like it. He'd be dead soon, anyway.

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Blinded by hate is one thing (though it is nice and convenient). That neither Mallister nor Pyke bothered to check the validity of Sam's story is quite another. Which is the point I was making.

Yes, and the point I was making is if two men who hated each other so much, that Mormont made sure they both where separated at opposite ends of the Wall, recieve news from a known craven like Sam, why would either men think Sam would have the 'balls' enough to lie to them and make sure his story checks out?

The force Mormont took was both too large and too small. It was too small to hope to give battle, and too large to effectively scout. It made the Watch men sitting ducks. In short, it was insanity, but it had the all-too convenient effect of killing off Jon Snow's rivals.

So making a tactical and military blunders can not happen?

Does Tywin Lannister have a good track record with the Watch? No. Is he the only guy in a position to send anyone North at all? Yes. Is antagonising him for no purpose at all unbelievably stupid? Double Yes.

Hmm so a man who already as a bad track record with the Watch, should still be the only 'king' they ask for help? When Bowen sent the ravens, they didn't even know Renly was dead at the time and if 5 Kings each can host enough men to contest rulership of the realm, why would Tywin be the only person in position to send men to the North to help? Also even if Bowen just sent a raven to Tywin to ask for help, how would Tywin be even the best person to get a host of men North?

Jon Snow is the fourth youngest LC in eight thousand years, with the three younger ones being political appointments (i.e. relatives of the Lords of Winterfell). Since there are no political advantages to Jon (only massive disadvantages), Jon is thus the youngest "purely merit" appointment ever - merit that involved vanishingly brief service, and running off to the Wildings. That the appointment was made with winter coming on only makes it doubly stupid.

See above regarding Jon's exceptional age. Age and experience matter. Heck, why not Edd Tollett as LC then? He can (presumably) read and write too.

So the three other youngest LC's have all been relatives to Starks? And you don't think that fact along wouldn't at least sway men in the Nights Watch that if they vote fourth youngest LC it wouldn't be that 'bad' of an idea? After all the wall and the Watch are still around, so how bad could of the other three have been?

Yes, the same 16 year old who lead off a attack of 200 wildlings, then held back Mance's army for several days till the other 'candidates' returned from East Watch after being fooled by Mance is just the same as Edd right? On political advantages, well Jon getting pretty cozy with a man who could be sitting his ass on the Iron Throne and has around 4000 men at the wall

On "Age and experience matter" I agree to some extent, but look how the last LC with 'age and experience' did.....

Why are you keeping on saying winter is coming? Did GRRM write in the men of the Nights Watch know for a fact the Other are going to attack?

Other characters move Jon's storyline along for him. Thank goodness TV!Jon is different.

You mean the same TV Jon who only got to go on his stupid mission to Craster's Keep in the first place, was because Janos convinced Alliser to allow him to go because it would be a good chance of getting rid of "I know nothing Jon Snow"?

Seeing as the idea is mooted in both book and show, and no-one complains about lack of wood, I think its feasibility is without question.

Big difference is though, they have no idea in the books if the Others are even going to show up or not or when. They may actually have enough time to seal up 3 tunnels that are hundreds of miles apart and actually have the man power todo it with the wildlings help. Good luck with that with doing it with only 200 or so men the shows Night Watch have........

Have you got any idea how high 700 feet is? From that height, the accuracy of any attempted drop goes out the window (that includes arrows too - Martin doesn't realise how high 700 feet is either). And I repeat: hacking through broken chunks is easier than hacking through solid ice. By your own reasoning, would it not be more effective defence to chuck stuff at them while they're dealing with a much more daunting task?

Yes I am aware how high around 700 feet is and fully aware GRRM made a massive oversight in size. But being as wildlings are able to hit targets with arrows on top of the Wall in the books, why couldn't the Nights Watch not be able todo the same thing from the top? And if they did even freeze up the three tunnels, whats from stopping Mance from having his wildlings then from tunneling under the wall, through the wall or spreading out and trying to get as many fighting men on top of the wall? And how would the Nights Watch be able to defend against that?

Yep. Wall 'em up. As long as the tens of thousands of Wildings are on one side of the Wall, their massive superiority of numbers doesn't matter.

Yep, then deal with a 100,000 wights and who know how many Others whitewalkers.......brilliant idea. If we talking about the books then it wasn't even Mance's plan to attack the Wall head on, as for the show not sure what Mance is plan is yet other than making "the biggest fire the North has ever seen!"

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It's a way to make him look smarter now and more humanitarian after. Now, he's the smart guy who proposes to block the gates that will be smashed by the giant in ninth episode. Next season he'll argue to keep the gates open so that refugees can come back in, which show how compassionate he is.

Either way the whole decision is a bit nonsensical on the show. Why they don't just narrow the entrance so that only one guy at a time gets passed (which would make it nigh on impregnable and allow for rangings) is beyond me.

Disagree. Jon will go straight back to flip-flopping after when he is leading the movement to let the wildlings pass etc. It makes him look much weaker IMO, but they couldn't possibly care less about consistency with regards to his storyline.

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Disagree. Jon will go straight back to flip-flopping after when he is leading the movement to let the wildlings pass etc. It makes him look much weaker IMO, but they couldn't possibly care less about consistency with regards to his storyline.

Is it flip-flopping, or is it taking in new information and making a decision based on that? See my quotes in my sig.

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Is it flip-flopping, or is it taking in new information and making a decision based on that? See my quotes in my sig.

How DARE he take a change in circumstances into consideration when he makes life or death decisions! He can't be trusted at all if he doesn't stubbornly and blindly stick to the same decisions he made long ago, no matter what new information he gets.

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How DARE he take a change in circumstances into consideration when he makes life or death decisions! He can't be trusted at all if he doesn't stubbornly and blindly stick to the same decisions he made long ago, no matter what new information he gets.

You mean it ok, for a leader to change his mind during a fluid situation; where lives can either be saved or lost? I've never heard of such non sense!

Does anyone think, we will get the line "Jon, the Wall is yours." at all? If so, does it come from Ameon; after Throne's death? Or does Throne himself, say it to Jon; should he go below in the tunnel to fight the giants?

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Ive only skimmed over the thread but how does it make Jon look clever not barring the gate when Stannis is going to ride in and save the day and then use the gate to enter Castle Black?



If they barred the gate that would have have left Stannis's army stranded on the wrong side of the wall.


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I mean the latter. The election was entirely Sam's idea and project. Sam is the proactive one here - not Jon, who as is normal for his book incarnation, just sits there and gets everything handed to him without any initiative on his part.

What is even more absurd is that Jon knew that if Slynt was elected for LC, this would mean Jon would be executed. Even this didn't make him act in any way to influence the election.He sat on his ass and moped, didn't even bother to vote.

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Ive only skimmed over the thread but how does it make Jon look clever not barring the gate when Stannis is going to ride in and save the day and then use the gate to enter Castle Black?

If they barred the gate that would have have left Stannis's army stranded on the wrong side of the wall.

Does Jon have the gift of foresight? This is their Helm's Deep. They have no way of knowing that the elves the trees are going to show up

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You mean it ok, for a leader to change his mind during a fluid situation; where lives can either be saved or lost? I've never heard of such non sense!

Does anyone think, we will get the line "Jon, the Wall is yours." at all? If so, does it come from Ameon; after Throne's death? Or does Throne himself, say it to Jon; should he go below in the tunnel to fight the giants?

I imagine we'll here it when he gets elected, is my thinking.

Ive only skimmed over the thread but how does it make Jon look clever not barring the gate when Stannis is going to ride in and save the day and then use the gate to enter Castle Black?

If they barred the gate that would have have left Stannis's army stranded on the wrong side of the wall.

1. He has NO IDEA Stannis is coming. None of them have the faintest hope of help coming since it hasn't come so far. They are facing a force from the North that outnumbers them 1,000 to 1 as well as a force from the South that could decimate their forces on their own. By sealing the tunnel, that helps to mitigate the danger from the former so that they can focus more on the latter.

2. Stannis wouldn't be stranded, anyway. He would just need to take his forces back to East Watch and cross there (or the Shadow Tower).

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Ive only skimmed over the thread but how does it make Jon look clever not barring the gate when Stannis is going to ride in and save the day and then use the gate to enter Castle Black?

If they barred the gate that would have have left Stannis's army stranded on the wrong side of the wall.

How could Jon possibly know or expect that? That letter was sent out ages ago and there was no indication that any of the kings even read it. Even if they had, Stannis's power was broken at that time as far as anyone knows. It was lucky that he got an infusion of cash from Braavos but without that I don't think most people would have anticipated that his sellsails would even still agree to carry him to the Wall in time.

What is even more absurd is that Jon knew that if Slynt was elected for LC, this would mean Jon would be executed. Even this didn't make him act in any way to influence the election.He sat on his ass and moped, didn't even bother to vote.

Rereading those chapters, I get the feeling that Jon would have gone to Stannis if Janos had won the election. He ignores the election not to mope about it (does he even think about it during his chapters?) but to ruminate over Stannis's offer. The election is a small part of his inner monologue; he spends most of it thinking about his childhood with Robb, and Ned, and how he always secretly pined for Winterfell, but how he is horrified at the thought of having to destroy its weirwoods. Maybe he should have cared more, but honestly I don't think he did. I don't know if he was depressed or suicidal or just distracted.

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Rereading those chapters, I get the feeling that Jon would have gone to Stannis if Janos had won the election. He ignores the election not to mope about it (does he even think about it during his chapters?) but to ruminate over Stannis's offer. The election is a small part of his inner monologue; he spends most of it thinking about his childhood with Robb, and Ned, and how he always secretly pined for Winterfell, but how he is horrified at the thought of having to destroy its weirwoods. Maybe he should have cared more, but honestly I don't think he did. I don't know if he was depressed or suicidal or just distracted.

^This.

That why am not getting these 'he did nothing but moped around' comments. Why would Jon even care about the vote? Over the last few weeks leading up to the vote; he betrayed his love for Ygritte, helped lead the defence against the wildling attack on Castle Black which got Ygritte killed and then held Mance's main force back for several days until the rest of the Watch returned from Eastwatch. What was his 'reward' for keeping to his duties as a Brother to the Night's Watch? Being branded as a traiter and deserter to the Watch, being sent out to parley with man who he betrayed for the Watch and who, if it wasn't for Stannis attack, would most likely have killed him. Yep, am pretty sure that would make someone disillusioned on how 'great' it is to be a Brother of the Watch.

Whats more, Stannis has offered him the chance to be legitimised to being a Stark, something that Jon has craved for most of his life. To be made Lord of the North and Winterfell, something he has only ever dreamed about and to raise a family, something Jon could never have in the Watch, but falling in love with Ygritte actually put meaning into his Uncle's words in what he would actually lose if he became a Brother. But at the cost of destorying the weirdwood tree/old gods that he, his father and family have been worshiping to for thousands of years.

Yes, he didn't do alot to get himself elected, but just by him having meetings and dealings with a King, I would imagine got the Brother's talking. If Mormont's ravan who says 'Snow' can push men who are on the fence on who too vote for can swing a vote, imagine how many other votes Jon won for himself just by having 'secret' meetings with a King, who just saved the Watch and the realm from a wildling invasion.

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