The True History of Valyria (everything was a lie?)

[Mithras]

I think the Roman Empire was the design template of the Valyrian Freehold. If we push this parallel further, maybe we can pass beyond the “fake histories” of the maesters and see the true history of the Valyrians ourselves.

We know that;

· Proto-Valyrians were originally a peaceful sheep herding society.

· The Lhazareen are called the lamb people who worship the Great Shepherd. They draw the attention of a militarily superior nation (the Dothraki) for exploit. As a result, they are attacked and enslaved by the Dothraki. They are a peaceful society.

· The Ghiscari Empire thrived much before the Valyrians. They had the strongest military force of the time.

· The Ghiscari Empire was a Bronze Age culture. They wielded Bronze weapons and they still make use of Bronze.

Therefore, I think the Proto-Valyrians were Lhazareen or they descend from the same ancestor with the Lhazareen. In any case, the proto-Valyrians and the Lhazareen should share a quite similar culture.

The “fake history” claims that some 5,000 years ago, the Valyrian Empire discovered the dragons and rose to power quickly. They subdued the Ghiscari Empire after 5 great wars.

Now let us introduce the Trojan parallel.

We know that;

· Trojans were a peaceful society that thrived on trade.

· As a result, they drew the attention of a militarily superior nation (the Achaeans) for exploit. Their city was sacked and destroyed by them. They were driven from their homeland.

· Aeneas was a Trojan hero. He is known as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome.

· The Achaeans were a Bronze Age culture.

Here, we can equate the Trojans (later proto-Romans) to proto-Valyrians and the Achaeans to the Ghiscari.

Therefore, I think the proto-Valyrians were defeated at their homelands by the Ghiscari Empire and they had to flee to what would become Valyria under the leadership of a culture hero. Valyria was not a friendly place because it was teeming with dragons and wyrms. Its climate should not be much suitable for herding or agriculture.

However, as soon as the Valyrians discovered the ways to tame the dragons, they became unstoppable. The dragons of Valyria can be equated to the war machine of the Romans. Romans found a way to produce the best steel of its time. Valyrians discovered the secrets of the Valyrian steel.

Much of the Ghiscari blood, religion, and language are now forgotten and wiped out. The Ghiscari of present time are a mongrel folk of a dozen races.

Since the history is written by the victors, I think everything related to the early Valyrian and Ghiscari history are constructed.

I think the fact that Valyrians were once exploited by the Ghiscari Empire was removed from the records and memories. Also the fall of the Ghiscari Empire was exaggerated by the Valyrians to boast their pride. The victory against the Ghiscari was used as a nation building story by the Valyrians. All the nations of our world have such stories. I think it is even possible that the Ghiscari Empire was already falling or fell before the Valyrians rose to power or the fall of the Ghiscari Empire made an opening for the Valyrians to migrate and have the chance to tame the dragons. I also think that 5 great victories are definitely exaggerated and the Valyrians defeated an already decadent force.

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

I think the fact that Valyrians were once exploited by the Ghiscari Empire was removed from the records and memories. Also the fall of the Ghiscari Empire was exaggerated by the Valyrians to boast their pride. The victory against the Ghiscari was used as a nation building story by the Valyrians. All the nations of our world have such stories. I think it is even possible that the Ghiscari Empire was already falling or fell before the Valyrians rose to power or the fall of the Ghiscari Empire made an opening for the Valyrians to migrate and have the chance to tame the dragons. I also think that 5 great victories are definitely exaggerated and the Valyrians defeated an already decadent force.

I think that those 5 great wars were more of a parallel to the wars Rome fought with Carthage, where yes the first couple where Old Ghis still maintained a strong military strength and influence, but after the first couple it was more of annoyance but bc they were bitter enemies the propaganda machine spun into something bigger.

[Maester Pedant]

That's an interesting possibility. Perhaps when we learn more about the "official" history of Valyria, we might get more hints of what you suggest.

In any case, the parallel between the Proto-Valyrians and the Lhazareen is obvious: two seemingly peaceful sheepherding peoples.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I like a lot of the OP here, but the 5 wars against the Ghiscari were not in fact 5 wars, but 1 conquest and 4 or 5 revolts. After the last 1 they were all slaughtered fields salted etc etc. 1 thing I notice is that Old Ghis is not at the mouth of a River. This seems strange to me, its possible the climate changed after the Doom but its possible it changed before that as well.

[Chatty Duelist]

I think 5 wars is indeed way too much. 3 wars max.

[Bael Abel]

I like a lot of the OP here, but the 5 wars against the Ghiscari were not in fact 5 wars, but 1 conquest and 4 or 5 revolts. After the last 1 they were all slaughtered fields salted etc etc. 1 thing I notice is that Old Ghis is not at the mouth of a River. This seems strange to me, its possible the climate changed after the Doom but its possible it changed before that as well.

That does seem strange. I wish I could site this but reconstructions of the ancient geography of the fertile crescent suggests that there were once four rivers emptying into the persian gulf. For a sizable city of a bronze age empire to exist you need a steady source of fresh water, so either there used to be a river there, but it dried up, the river is subterranean and there were many wells, or there used to be a monsoon style climate pattern. The dead cities of the Red Waste lead me to believe that the region used to be lush and green, but some sort of climate shift did occur. Perhaps this has something to do with Valyria using their magic to make summer longer on their penninsula? It could also just be a natural change in climate/desert expansion as we've seen in the Sahara. Carthage, from which GRRM has clearly drawn some inspiration, was much greener, and the desert further away from the mediterranean than at present.

[Alliser Trump]

That does seem strange. I wish I could site this but reconstructions of the ancient geography of the fertile crescent suggests that there were once four rivers emptying into the persian gulf. For a sizable city of a bronze age empire to exist you need a steady source of fresh water, so either there used to be a river there, but it dried up, the river is subterranean and there were many wells, or there used to be a monsoon style climate pattern. The dead cities of the Red Waste lead me to believe that the region used to be lush and green, but some sort of climate shift did occur. Perhaps this has something to do with Valyria using their magic to make summer longer on their penninsula? It could also just be a natural change in climate/desert expansion as we've seen in the Sahara. Carthage, from which GRRM has clearly drawn some inspiration, was much greener, and the desert further away from the mediterranean than at present.

A lot of places are like that, especially in that area. The Troy that Homer described sat right next to a harbor at the mouth of a river, but the modern-day archaeological site is at least a mile away from the mouth of that same river.

[Mithras]

A lot of places are like that, especially in that area. The Troy that Homer described sat right next to a harbor at the mouth of a river, but the modern-day archaeological site is at least a mile away from the mouth of that same river.

Yes, a lot of Ionian cities like Ephesus suffered the same fate. Their harbors were slowly silted up by the rivers and they lost their importance. Today Ephesus lies more than 2 miles (5 km) off the coast.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

I think the Roman Empire was the design template of the Valyrian Freehold. If we push this parallel further, maybe we can pass beyond the “fake histories” of the maesters and see the true history of the Valyrians ourselves.

We know that;

· Proto-Valyrians were originally a peaceful sheep herding society.

· The Lhazareen are called the lamb people who worship the Great Shepherd. They draw the attention of a militarily superior nation (the Dothraki) for exploit. As a result, they are attacked and enslaved by the Dothraki. They are a peaceful society.

· The Ghiscari Empire thrived much before the Valyrians. They had the strongest military force of the time.

· The Ghiscari Empire was a Bronze Age culture. They wielded Bronze weapons and they still make use of Bronze.

Therefore, I think the Proto-Valyrians were Lhazareen or they descend from the same ancestor with the Lhazareen. In any case, the proto-Valyrians and the Lhazareen should share a quite similar culture.

The “fake history” claims that some 5,000 years ago, the Valyrian Empire discovered the dragons and rose to power quickly. They subdued the Ghiscari Empire after 5 great wars.

Now let us introduce the Trojan parallel.

We know that;

· Trojans were a peaceful society that thrived on trade.

· As a result, they drew the attention of a militarily superior nation (the Achaeans) for exploit. Their city was sacked and destroyed by them. They were driven from their homeland.

· Aeneas was a Trojan hero. He is known as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome.

· The Achaeans were a Bronze Age culture.

Here, we can equate the Trojans (later proto-Romans) to proto-Valyrians and the Achaeans to the Ghiscari.

Therefore, I think the proto-Valyrians were defeated at their homelands by the Ghiscari Empire and they had to flee to what would become Valyria under the leadership of a culture hero. Valyria was not a friendly place because it was teeming with dragons and wyrms. Its climate should not be much suitable for herding or agriculture.

However, as soon as the Valyrians discovered the ways to tame the dragons, they became unstoppable. The dragons of Valyria can be equated to the war machine of the Romans. Romans found a way to produce the best steel of its time. Valyrians discovered the secrets of the Valyrian steel.

Much of the Ghiscari blood, religion, and language are now forgotten and wiped out. The Ghiscari of present time are a mongrel folk of a dozen races.

Since the history is written by the victors, I think everything related to the early Valyrian and Ghiscari history are constructed.

I think the fact that Valyrians were once exploited by the Ghiscari Empire was removed from the records and memories. Also the fall of the Ghiscari Empire was exaggerated by the Valyrians to boast their pride. The victory against the Ghiscari was used as a nation building story by the Valyrians. All the nations of our world have such stories. I think it is even possible that the Ghiscari Empire was already falling or fell before the Valyrians rose to power or the fall of the Ghiscari Empire made an opening for the Valyrians to migrate and have the chance to tame the dragons. I also think that 5 great victories are definitely exaggerated and the Valyrians defeated an already decadent force.

You're a great poster Paper Waver but this is ridiculous!

Does everything in ASOIAF have to completely scrapped from History? ASOIAF might as well be world history from different time periods mixed in together.

The Valyrian Empire is based on the Roman Empire. By that their civilization, their economic boom, the lifestyle of the people, their power. Not their bloody history.

Even if this theory of yours is true then why on earth would Valyria keep the records at 5 battles? They would want the battle record to be 1 battle in which Valyria annihilated Ghis and destroyed their entire empire.

Yet the battle record stands at 5 suggesting with supreme soldiers and crazy training Ghis was able to take the fight to DRAGON WIELDING valyrians 5 DAMN TIMES!

Dragons should have crushed them in 1 damn go yet they managed 5 times. That in my opinion is one of the most impressive and biggest battle achievements if the not the biggest in ASOIAF world history as they survived against Dragon wielders 5 times. Who else can boast this? YES Ghis got crushed by Valyria but surviving 5 bloody battles against dragons and wanting more each time is true determination. That is basically Stannis level determination of victory applied with the power of 10!

Not everything is scrapped of history otherwise where is the originality in GRRM's work?

I believe Valyrian history as it is and we will find out about it more in detail in a world of ice and fire and hopefully in the upcoming TWOW and ADOS.

[Alliser Trump]

I'm about 50% with the OP on this one.

I do think that the history has a very much Valyrian spin on it, and that their rise to power was not as fast as they say it was.

I don't think that there is nearly enough evidence to suggest that the Lhazareen are the ancestors to the Valyrians. There was more than enough land for many different sheep-based cultures to thrive at that time. I do believe that the Valyrians were chased out of their lands (probably by the Ghiscari) and ended up in what would become Valyria by circumstance, and not by choice.

I kind of subscribe to the Trojan parallel, only because the story of the Trojans, and especially Aeneas, is now known to be mostly just unfounded legend, but it was thought to be true during Roman times. I also like the fact that, just like Troy, there have been no written texts that have been found that can provide historical accounts from Valyria itself. The history is all coming from places OUTSIDE of Valyria, just like with Troy. Another nice little similarity is that many scholars today feel that Troy most likely was destroyed by an earthquake, and not by the Greeks. Sound familiar?

Also, I believe that the world map came from the Valyrians, as well as the names of many places, similar to how the Romans mapped the world and named most places. Notice how there is a common naming convention used to name places that are pretty far away from each other (WesterOS, EssOS, AndalOS, SothoryOS, NorvOS, etc.), the same way that Romans used the same naming convention to name places that are far away from each other (AfricA, AsiA, BrittaniA, ArabiA, ItaliA, etc.)

[Alliser Trump]

You're a great poster Paper Waver but this is ridiculous!

Does everything in ASOIAF have to completely scrapped from History? ASOIAF might as well be world history from different time periods mixed in together.

The Valyrian Empire is based on the Roman Empire. By that their civilization, their economic boom, the lifestyle of the people, their power. Not their bloody history.

Even if this theory of yours is true then why on earth would Valyria keep the records at 5 battles? They would want the battle record to be 1 battle in which Valyria annihilated Ghis and destroyed their entire empire.

Yet the battle record stands at 5 suggesting with supreme soldiers and crazy training Ghis was able to take the fight to DRAGON WIELDING valyrians 5 DAMN TIMES!

Dragons should have crushed them in 1 damn go yet they managed 5 times. That in my opinion is one of the most impressive and biggest battle achievements if the not the biggest in ASOIAF world history as they survived against Dragon wielders 5 times. Who else can boast this? YES Ghis got crushed by Valyria but surviving 5 bloody battles against dragons and wanting more each time is true determination. That is basically Stannis level determination of victory applied with the power of 10!

Not everything is scrapped of history otherwise where is the originality in GRRM's work?

I believe Valyrian history as it is and we will find out about it more in detail in a world of ice and fire and hopefully in the upcoming TWOW and ADOS.

One thing that you must understand is that this series is set in a fictional medieval time period and, since GRRM is a big proponent of realism, the historical accounts and opinions are most likely going to be very similar to historical and opinions from our own medieval time period, many of which were later disproved by archaeology, which has not yet been invented in the ASOIAF world. Therefore, GRRM would most likely write the histories the same way that someone from the medieval (or Roman, depending on who we are talking about) time period would write it, based on the prevailing beliefs of that time, meaning that much of what "is known" right now will likely be eventually disproved, but centuries later.

[Mithras]

King Aegon the Conqueror,

GRRM avoids giving omnipotent POVs. When it comes to historical knowledge (like tPatQ or TWOIAF) he still avoids giving omnipotent POVs. He tells his story through the biased and auto-censoring maesters which Ran calls "fake histories". Even those maesters admit that much of the ancient historical knowledge is full of nonsense. I think a critical approach to the given history is what GRRM wants us to do. This is true especially considering that Tyrion does the same and points that Grandmaester Munkun errs in his history book.

[Lord Varys]

Is it really confirmed that the proto-Valyrians were primitive shepherds. That's what the Ghiscari claim, yes, but has this been verified by an in-universe source? Even if not, then my guess is that the proto-Valyrians must have have some magical traditions, or else they could not have evolved quickly into a society of dragonriders and sorcerers.

If the proto-Valyrians did not originate from the Lands of the Long Summer, then my guess would be that they ancestors traveled there from Westeros, after the Long Night, perhaps because they were sick of the long winters in, say, the Riverlands, or because they were still afraid the Others might come back.

It has been argued that the purple eyes of the Daynes may be a hint that they are descendants of proto-Valyrians who played a big role in the Long Night, since they are apparently not related to the Targaryens or other pure-blooded Valyrian families of the present time...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You're a great poster Paper Waver but this is ridiculous!

Does everything in ASOIAF have to completely scrapped from History?

Even if this theory of yours is true then why on earth would Valyria keep the records at 5 battles? They would want the battle record to be 1 battle in which Valyria annihilated Ghis and destroyed their entire empire.

Yet the battle record stands at 5 suggesting with supreme soldiers and crazy training Ghis was able to take the fight to DRAGON WIELDING valyrians 5 DAMN TIMES!

Dragons should have crushed them in 1 damn go yet they managed 5 times. That in my opinion is one of the most impressive and biggest battle achievements if the not the biggest in ASOIAF world history as they survived against Dragon wielders 5 times. Who else can boast this? YES Ghis got crushed by Valyria but surviving 5 bloody battles against dragons and wanting more each time is true determination. That is basically Stannis level determination of victory applied with the power of 10!

It's well-documented that actual history inspired a lot of ASOIAF dynamics. Inspired by does not mean it is going to be mirrored. The original inspiration was the Wars of the Roses with Stark as York, and Lannister as Lancaster. It also started with GRRM's turtles. It changed and evolved over time, but yes much of it is inspired by actual history.

As to the 5 wars. First of all, it could be a bad translation and it was actually one war with five major battles. Second, which is more impressive: taking out a major military power that had terrified and overrun a good share of the continent for centuries in an epic struggle that lasts years, or taking out a dying power in one fell swoop of dragonfire? Personally I think the 5 wars story is more entertaining. No one respects a weak foe. The victory is more glorious if the struggle is greater. Think like a warmongering ancient culture for a minute.

[Mdoggy]

Did the Valaryians shepherd Dragons like the Lzhareen shepherd sheep?

[MyLittleFinger]

Now you've made me yearn to see a "Triumph" with dragons in tow.

[Mithras]

“My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin.”

It seems that even the most primitive societies have the magical traditions. We know that the seasons are magical and the magical activity in the world is ever changing. Many different magic schools must have evolved in time.

By the way, many people argued that the way Nettles tamed Sheepstealer might be a reenactment of how the proto-Valyrians started to tame their dragons. It is even possible that they first offered their sheeps as offerings to the dragons and worshipped them as gods. Many of the dragon names in fact belong to Valyrian gods. This may be because the Valyrians worshipped the actual dragons in the past.

[Donnelly]

Interesting theory, but Rome wasn't actually founded by Trojan refugees. Thats just what Virgil wrote in a poem intended to please Augustus. As similar as this world is to real events, I don't think you can extrapolate that Valyria shares the same foundation myths as Rome

[Maester Pedant]

There is nothing surprising or strange about there having been 5 Ghiscari Wars.

It took 4 wars for the Romans to defeat the Macedonians, and 3 wars to defeat the Carthaginians. Wars, not battles.

[Lord Varys]

Considering that the wars between the Valyrians and the Rhoynar stretched over a time of 250 years or so, I'd not be surprised if the conflicts between Valyria and Ghis stretched over 1,000 years or so, with each of the Five Ghiscari stretching over decades or even centuries.

The conflicts most likely escalated over a longer period of time, starting as quarrels between smaller colonies. And if the capitals were actually more or less content with the peace treaties after a long and bloody war, smaller conflicts may not have caused another all-out war at once, only after certain interest groups on both sides got what they wanted...