Why not Stannis? [Possible WoW Spoilers]

[Caerl Targaryen]

You do know Daenerys is a red herring right?

Says who? The text? You? The text seems to indicate the exact opposite of that. Most of the prophecy of Azor Ahai is fulfilled in Dany's chapters in AGOT. All that's missing is her defeat of the Others. Unless you can think of another character that has given birth to dragons (literally or figuratively), I highly doubt Dany is merely a red herring.

ADWD seems to hint that multiple characters may actually be fulfilling the prophecies. Jon's "death" and inevitable rebirth in some form meets many of the conditions for the prophecy as well. All that's missing are the dragons. I think things will be less literal in his case. Dany met the conditions more literally in AGOT. She even killed her Nissa Nissa (Drogo). In her case, Lightbringer is her dragons. The only thing she hasn't done is fought the Others, and she's had dragon dreams of doing exactly that.

I actually think there are multiple characters that will be Azor Ahai reborn. One for each dragon ("the dragon has three heads"). Dany is the obvious one. Jon is the less obvious one. And I have no idea who the last one would be. Aegon seems to be a red herring. Quentyn obviously wasn't the third head. Stannis has Valyrian blood but his lineage is wrong if the prophecies are to be believed.

Stannis meets none of the conditions at this point in the story. His Lightbringer is a fake (pretty much confirmed by Maester Aemon), he wasn't born amidst salt and smoke, he hasn't been reborn under the red star, and he hasn't given birth to dragons out of stone. Granted, those conditions could still be met before the end of the series. But so far, he certainly isn't AAR. Melisandre believes him to be but we know she doesn't exactly have the best read on things and tries to get reality to match her views instead of using what's in front of her to confirm her visions in the flames.

As for the question in the OP, no I don't think Stannis would be able to rule from Winterfell. I have doubts that the north would accept him, especially if there's a Stark still alive (and we know there are several). Stannis has had a tremendous amount of trouble just getting lords to rally to support him. Actually ruling the Seven Kingdoms from so far north is just not gonna happen. King's Landing is the seat of power in Westeros and has numerous powerful families relatively close by. If Stannis wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms, he needs to capture King's Landing and hold it. And he can only do that with the support of the great houses, most of which have no intention of supporting his claim.

If he defeats the Others on his own, no one will believe that he did it. People in the south and even in the north don't even believe the Others exist anymore. If they don't believe his claims about the incest in King's Landing, there's no way they'll believe his claims of fighting off the Others unless they actually see it with their own eyes.

[Jasta11]

It's possible the prophecy itself is a red herring, too. Some non-Chosen One person saving the world while the others argue about who fits what magic mumbo-jumbo more would be the king of thing GRRM would do for kicks, methinks. Doesn't have to involve Stannis either, you also have the Aryas, the Sansas, the Tyrions and several others who are decidedly not Chosen Ones of Prophecy.

Maybe it's my personal dislike for any prophecy that's not subtle, like Patchface's, talking.

[Knight of the Teabags]

I get that Renly was Master of Laws when he was on the small council, but it is actually very telling that Stannis doesn't refer to Renly at all in this story when he is talking to Janos Slynt and the Nights Watch. He actually seems to blame Littlefinger and Robert for Janos Slynt not facing the corruption charges. This could mean that Renly was not on the small council at the time of Stannis claiming corruption from Janos Slynt (he was a child still when they won the rebellion), or it could mean that Robert simply shrugged away Janos Slynt's corruption. There is no indication of Renly's position on the matter during this story, so saying that Renly simply shrugged off what Stannis was saying, is speculation. Stannis says that Robert did this, not Renly. Also, Stannis wasn't the only one that felt Janos Slynt was corrupt, based on what he says Jon Arryn knew it to and showed evidence of it. So this can't be taken as simply King Robert throwing out only Stannis' advice. He also disregarded the evidence that Jon Arryn put before the small council, and he potentially could of disregarded a vote of support for the corruption charges from Renly. Stannis doesn't place any blame on Renly when he talks about it, and we as readers have no indication how Renly felt about Jon Arryn and Stannis' claims of Janos Slynt's corruption.

Fair enough I am definitely speculating! And good point on bringing up the quote.

Depending on when this happens there is a lot of room to read many things between the lines. The pre-Ned days of Robert's Small Council I certainly would like to know more about. What Renly (and his unnamed predecessor) exactly did as Master of Laws is a real black area in this period? Jon Arryn is effectively ruling in Robert's stead, Varys is spying on the Targ kids (and being corrupt), Littlefinger is rubbing two coins together to make three (and being more corrupt), Pycelle is Archmaestering (and being corrupt) and Stannis runs the fleet well enough to defeat the Greyjoys. But does Renly do on the Small Council? He certainly stands out as the one member of the Small Council who really appear to do very much.

[Knight of the Teabags]

I get that Renly was Master of Laws when he was on the small council, but it is actually very telling that Stannis doesn't refer to Renly at all in this story when he is talking to Janos Slynt and the Nights Watch. He actually seems to blame Littlefinger and Robert for Janos Slynt not facing the corruption charges. This could mean that Renly was not on the small council at the time of Stannis claiming corruption from Janos Slynt (he was a child still when they won the rebellion), or it could mean that Robert simply shrugged away Janos Slynt's corruption. There is no indication of Renly's position on the matter during this story, so saying that Renly simply shrugged off what Stannis was saying, is speculation. Stannis says that Robert did this, not Renly. Also, Stannis wasn't the only one that felt Janos Slynt was corrupt, based on what he says Jon Arryn knew it to and showed evidence of it. So this can't be taken as simply King Robert throwing out only Stannis' advice. He also disregarded the evidence that Jon Arryn put before the small council, and he potentially could of disregarded a vote of support for the corruption charges from Renly. Stannis doesn't place any blame on Renly when he talks about it, and we as readers have no indication how Renly felt about Jon Arryn and Stannis' claims of Janos Slynt's corruption.

Fair enough I am definitely speculating! And good point on bringing up the quote.

Depending on when this happens there is a lot of room to read many things between the lines. The pre-Ned days of Robert's Small Council I certainly would like to know more about. What Renly (and his unnamed predecessor) exactly did as Master of Laws is a real black area in this period? Jon Arryn is effectively ruling in Robert's stead, Varys is spying on the Targ kids (and being corrupt), Littlefinger is rubbing two coins together to make three (and being more corrupt), Pycelle is Archmaestering (and being corrupt) and Stannis runs the fleet well enough to defeat the Greyjoys. But does Renly do on the Small Council? He certainly stands out as the one member of the Small Council who really didn't appear to do very much.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Because he's a total party pooper. : (

[Caerl Targaryen]

It's possible the prophecy itself is a red herring, too. Some non-Chosen One person saving the world while the others argue about who fits what magic mumbo-jumbo more would be the king of thing GRRM would do for kicks, methinks. Doesn't have to involve Stannis either, you also have the Aryas, the Sansas, the Tyrions and several others who are decidedly not Chosen Ones of Prophecy.

Maybe it's my personal dislike for any prophecy that's not subtle, like Patchface's, talking.

I agree. The prophecy may actually be the true red herring. I don't really see a single person standing against the Others. It seems like several major characters have been setup to do that already. Having a lone hero stand against a big bad seems to be anti-ASOIAF. If the prophecies have any truth to them, I don't think there will be a clear cut AAR that stands against the Others.

On the other hand, GRRM has been pretty deliberate with certain descriptions of events. And we know that prophecies do come true in his world. Bran has several prophetic dreams. Jojen, Bloodraven, and other greenseers throughout history have had green dreams as well. Dany also seems to have prophetic dragon dreams. And red priests can see the future in flames. So there's evidence to support that prophecies can be valid. Whether the AA prophecy is valid is up in the air.

Jon's final moments in ADWD were worded pretty specifically to give the impression that he's AAR. Dany's last chapter in AGOT was a more literal description of the prophecy. If you combine that with everything else about her, it seems like she's at least special in some way. There's certainly a lot of evidence in favor of the prophecy being true. But whether it'll actually be true remains to be seen.

Still, I think it's too simple to have a single figure leading the fight against the Others. I think we'll be seeing several characters fighting against them before the end with enough ambiguity regarding the prophecy to leave it up to readers to interpret. At least that seems more his style than introducing a traditional hero. Just like how I don't think we'll be seeing a big bad evil Other that represents all of the Others. Fighting against any sort of dark lord is not what GRRM set out to write with this series.

[Bronn Urgandy]

How do we know that Renly and Stannis didn't share the same interests when Robert was king? They are very different, but at the end of the day they are brothers and should share the same interest of keeping their brother safe and on the throne. If they didn't share this interest with one another, than that shows Stannis' mindset right there. Renly was interested in Robert on the throne, and he was initially trying to get Margaery Tyrell to be Robert's new queen because of his dislike for the Lannisters. And why would Renly take the name Tyrell? There was nothing overboard about what was said. Stannis thought someone killed Jon Arryn to protect the secret of the incest. Did he think it would stop at just Robert's hand? He witnessed first hand, from his own experience and belief, that they were willing to kill to protect that secret. Obviously Stannis never talked to anyone about it, and most likely Jon Arryn didn't, but how did Stannis know that the killers of Jon Arryn knew that for sure? Like I said, when Stannis fled the capital, from his own perspective based on what we know that he was aware of, how could he think it would be advantageous or helpful for Robert? The only person who definitely benefitted from his departure was him, as he had no way of knowing that Jon Arryn's killer was Baelish, and he thought that Jon was killed to try to keep the incest secret. Based on that, he was knowingly leaving his brothers in the midst of someone or some people willing to kill to protect the secret of the incest. Of course this could extend all the way to his brother Robert, because Joffrey eventually sitting the throne, depends upon Robert not learning the truth. When Stannis learned of the incest, he discovered that he was actually NEXT in the line of succession, and soon after he fled the city. It could definitely be interpreted that Stannis abandoned his brothers, and it would seem that the Storm Lords, the Tyrells, and Renly all potentially thought so as well and that is why they didn't support his claim when Robert died.

That was a joke, Renly would change his name to Tyrell because Renly was in it more for the Tyrells than he was anybody else, Stannis wouldn't trust Renly because he is in it for the Tyrells, but also because all he was interested in doing was sitting around and making japes with Littlefinger, that last we've got from Stannis' own mouth, possibly its not true, but its certainly what Stannis thinks. :dunno:

The thing about killing Robert is, how are you going to pull it off? He's the most protected man in the world. Melee accident? Who's going to a) have the skill to do it? AND B) be willing to do it? Hunting accident? In front of Barristan Selmy or another Kingsguard? Poison? The Lannisters have to find a way to do it that doesn't get back to them, Robert is a young, strong, healthy man. Getting Robert drunk and gored was lucky, and since Robert will always drink while hunting anyway, Stannis would be trying to protect him from himself, which is impossible, Stannis still isn't sure if Robert was actually murdered to this day. Whereas if Stannis turned up at the bottom of some steps with a broken neck and got "found" by Jaime Lannister, who would really give a shit?

Not to mention, Stannis knows Robert as well as anyone, the man who turns his back on truths he doesn't like, if he thinks Robert would tell him to piss off or worse perhaps if he made in the incest accusations then he has a reason for thinking that, and if he told Robert he was in danger, well its like what Eddard Stark said "he'd damn them all the hell and get on with it anyway."

Now, with that in mind, if Stannis was gathering swords to take action at a later date was that really the wrong choice? Or was it a bad choice out of bad choices that could've worked, because if Stannis were to stay and reveal all, I say that also would've been a bad choice out of bad choices that on a good day, perhaps would've worked. In the end, its likely Stannis just got afraid, realised he was out of his depth in the political game and decided to fall back on what he knows best, force of arms. And then events unfolded as they did and fucked everything up.

Heh heh. I just wanted to say Stainless Baratheon.

It has a certain, metallic ring to it. :)

It's funny though, because I didn't post saying that Stannis was the worst character in the novels, I just said that it bugs me that so many people spend so much time and energy trying to whitewash him.

Unless you are yourself trying to whitewash him, why would you object to that?

Meh, whitewashing of all characters annoys me, but I stay out of Daenerys threads these days because I've got better things to do than complain about it, like big up the Mannis. I mostly tend to object to criticisms that have no basis in the text. Call Stannis unlikeable and I'd have to agree with you, although I'd add that the people that don't like Stannis are generally pompous Lordy types that can't hack a hard truth or two.

[Osha13]

Now, with that in mind, if Stannis was gathering swords to take action at a later date was that really the wrong choice? Or was it a bad choice out of bad choices that could've worked, because if Stannis were to stay and reveal all, I say that also would've been a bad choice out of bad choices that on a good day, perhaps would've worked. In the end, its likely Stannis just got afraid, realised he was out of his depth in the political game and decided to fall back on what he knows best, force of arms. And then events unfolded as they did and fucked everything up.

That is why Stannis should not be king. He learned of the incest, and realized he was rightfully next in the line of succession. After Jon Arryn was killed, he fled and we have no indication that he planned on ever telling anybody about it. Regardless of how bad the situation was, he had two brothers in Kings Landing. If he thought Robert wouldn't believe him, well then Stannis should have shown Renly the book that convinced Jon Arryn and stressed the need for secrecy until they have a plan in place. Jon Arryn was the closest thing to Robert, he was his Hand, so Stannis had to of felt Robert was in danger. The secret was already out and Jon Arryn was killed "because of the incest". How do Jon Arryn's killers know Jon and stannis haven't told anyone in Stannis' mind for sure? When Stannis fled, it only benefitted him for certain, and he potentially had serious doubts about Robert's safety. It is very telling that Stannis didn't reveal the incest until Eddard told him Robert was dead. It could be interpreted as Stannis had a feeling Robert was going to be killed, or at least had doubts about his safety, so he abandoned him due to all the times Robert slighted him, and hoped that day would come so he could make his claim and tell everyone about Joffrey. We have no indication before Robert died that Stannis planned on telling anyone, but we do have reasons to believe that he had doubts about Roberts safety so he abandoned him. He stuck by Robert through slight after slight for years on end, so why abandon and flee when you realize your rightfully next in line and Robert could be in Danger?

[Bronn Urgandy]

That is why Stannis should not be king. He learned of the incest, and realized he was rightfully next in the line of succession. After Jon Arryn was killed, he fled and we have no indication that he planned on ever telling anybody about it. Regardless of how bad the situation was, he had two brothers in Kings Landing. If he thought Robert wouldn't believe him, well then Stannis should have shown Renly the book that convinced Jon Arryn and stressed the need for secrecy until they have a plan in place. Jon Arryn was the closest thing to Robert, he was his Hand, so Stannis had to of felt Robert was in danger. The secret was already out and Jon Arryn was killed "because of the incest". How do Jon Arryn's killers know Jon and stannis haven't told anyone in Stannis' mind for sure? When Stannis fled, it only benefitted him for certain, and he potentially had serious doubts about Robert's safety. It is very telling that Stannis didn't reveal the incest until Eddard told him Robert was dead. It could be interpreted as Stannis had a feeling Robert was going to be killed, or at least had doubts about his safety, so he abandoned him due to all the times Robert slighted him, and hoped that day would come so he could make his claim and tell everyone about Joffrey. We have no indication before Robert died that Stannis planned on telling anyone, but we do have reasons to believe that he had doubts about Roberts safety so he abandoned him. He stuck by Robert through slight after slight for years on end, so why abandon and flee when you realize your rightfully next in line and Robert could be in Danger?

Because Stannis really was in immediate danger. Eddard even reflects that whatever had frightened Stannis must be pretty bad.

Stannis doesn't know about the book, or at least he never mentions it. All this in your post is speculation, we know he was on Dragonstone gathering swords, we don't know why, was he going to return to Kings Landing in force with troops and hopefully evidence to back up his incest claims? I mean, Stannis isn't stupid, what good is gathering 5000 swords at best to then try to claim a Kingdom with? Its a terrible plan, Robert was loved by everybody, no way is the realm siding with Stannis over his heir, whatever claims of incest he makes, he was lucky Joffrey went to lengths to make himself unpopular.

Thing is, you can make up your mind about a character and then categorise their actions based around what you think of them, and that is never more in evidence than when people talk about Stannis' flight to Dragonstone, but given the characters overall history and loyalty to Robert and his loyalty to Roberts memory, at worst his flight to Dragonstone was a personal moment of weakness out of fear for his own life. The alternative is remaining somewhere where you believe your life is in danger and telling a bunch of people that you believe won't believe you. Killing Robert Baratheon is a big, big deal, I don't think people appreciate that, and Roberts pig ignorance and willingness to bury his head in the sand had kept him alive this long, Stannis may have reasoned that if he wasn't there to tell Robert of anything, he could buy Robert time, since why risk the implications of killing him?

Not to mention, we still don't know what he had planned on Dragonstone, could be he was figuring out a way to act. Given Stannis and Roberts relationship thus far, its not particularly hard for me to believe that. They didn't like each other, but Stannis always did right by him

[James Arryn]

Stannis was convinced that Robert would never believe him.

But what was his DUTY?

There's one common theme you can find running throughout all of Stannis' decisions. And contrary to what people seem to think, it's not duty. If it was duty, the situation you're trying to explain by pragmatic self-interest wouldn't be the problem it is for Stannis apologists. He would have done his duty, and to hell with whether Robert believed him or whether that increased his own personal danger or w/e.

It's self-interest/ambition/getting what he feels is his due. That's the only one which is never superseded.

He is capable of great, even heroic deeds. But only when they don't conflict with his own interests.

[Bronn Urgandy]

But what was his DUTY?

To prove the incest beyond all doubt and to have the traitors Cersie and Jaime Lannister punished?

One does not simply accuse the Kings wife, to the King, of fucking her brother and birthing three bastard children with very little to back that claim up. Or are you saying Jon Arryn was also shirking his DUTY :o

[James Arryn]

To prove the incest beyond all doubt and to have the traitors Cersie and Jaime Lannister punished?

One does not simply accuse the Kings wife, to the King, of fucking her brother and birthing three bastard children with very little to back that claim up. Or are you saying Jon Arryn was also shirking his DUTY :o

Jon Arryn was looking for proof.

Stannis felt Jon Arryn's death was proof enough, and bailed.

One's duty to one's brother and king is to protect him from his enemies, not to worry about how happy he'll be about it, or whether or not you'll be thanked or rewarded. What makes duty duty is how it's divorced from your own self-interests. Stannis knew Robert was in danger he didn't see, and left him to his fate. (In addition to bailing on his Small Council duty)

Try and reconcile that with the guy who doesn't want to be King, but is only doing his duty, and you get a problem. But try and reconcile that with a guy pursuing his own interests, and no problem. All his bullshit about duty or hard choosing a or w/e just covers up a very clear pattern of doing whatever is most likely to help his interests. He may believe his own BS, but readers shouldn't.

[RoamingRonin]

To prove the incest beyond all doubt and to have the traitors Cersie and Jaime Lannister punished?

One does not simply accuse the Kings wife, to the King, of fucking her brother and birthing three bastard children with very little to back that claim up. Or are you saying Jon Arryn was also shirking his DUTY :o

But that's exactly what he did when he sent the ravens out with the news.

[James Arryn]

But that's exactly what he did when he sent the ravens out with the news.

Exactly.

When it was in his interests.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Jon Arryn was looking for proof.

Stannis felt Jon Arryn's death was proof enough, and bailed.

One's duty to one's brother and king is to protect him from his enemies, not to worry about how happy he'll be about it, or whether or not you'll be thanked or rewarded. What makes duty duty is how it's divorced from your own self-interests. Stannis knew Robert was in danger he didn't see, and left him to his fate. (In addition to bailing on his Small Council duty)

Try and reconcile that with the guy who doesn't want to be King, but is only doing his duty, and you get a problem. But try and reconcile that with a guy pursuing his own interests, and no problem. All his bullshit about duty or hard choosing a or w/e just covers up a very clear pattern of doing whatever is most likely to help his interests. He may believe his own BS, but readers shouldn't.

Jon Arryn had found it. Still didn't say anything until he was delirious.

Proof enough that he was next, for sure. Can't prove anything when you are dead, can you?

How can Stannis protect Robert from his enemies? "Oh err, Robert, Jon Arryn was poisoned and your kids aren't yours they're actually Jaime Lannisters, I know right we fought a war to kick incests off the Throne and now they're going to be back on it, I'd appreciate the humour if I actually had any, but yeah you better chuck that bitch in a cell and do something about those kids. I can't prove any of this by the way." So, how is Stannis being removed from the Small Council and potentially of his head helping Robert in any way?

Does anybody who spent a year with him on Dragonstone even think that was his game?

Again, this is a poor decision, when the alternatives were all poor decisions. And you still don't know what he was doing on Dragonstone, but drawing on 15 years of a Stannis loyal to Robert dynamic its likely he was planning something, but of course, lets have the man who's always done right by his elder brother act woefully out of character and suddenly become hilariously self interested because it suits your interpretations. Brilliant!

[Bronn Urgandy]

But that's exactly what he did when he sent the ravens out with the news.

Exactly.

When it was in his interests.

Yeah, when the situation changed completely. When you've suddenly become the highest authority in the realm its probably time to speak up.

[James Arryn]

Jon Arryn had found it. Still didn't say anything until he was delirious.

Proof enough that he was next, for sure. Can't prove anything when you are dead, can you?

How can Stannis protect Robert from his enemies? "Oh err, Robert, Jon Arryn was poisoned and your kids aren't yours they're actually Jaime Lannisters, I know right we fought a war to kick incests off the Throne and now they're going to be back on it, I'd appreciate the humour if I actually had any, but yeah you better chuck that bitch in a cell and do something about those kids. I can't prove any of this by the way." So, how is Stannis being removed from the Small Council and potentially of his head helping Robert in any way?

Does anybody who spent a year with him on Dragonstone even think that was his game?

Again, this is a poor decision, when the alternatives were all poor decisions. And you still don't know what he was doing on Dragonstone, but drawing on 15 years of a Stannis loyal to Robert dynamic its likely he was planning something, but of course, lets have the man who's always done right by his elder brother act woefully out of character and suddenly become hilariously self interested because it suits your interpretations. Brilliant!

Jon Arryn did not have proof. We have nothing to suggest he thought he had proof. Hair colour is not proof. He was hunting for it.

When he died, for Stannis that was proof. Between that and his ravens rationalizing his bid for the throne, he adds exactly nothing to the case. And yet he feels it's strong enough to tell everyone. After Robert.

So here we go, a 'poor decision' to explain a straight line. Like a 'hard choosing' to explain treason. All of these gymnastics.

Whereas when you ask: what's best for Stannis' interests, no gymnastics are needed. It's a straight line. He doesn't need to make a 'bad decision'....and go on making it for months and months, by the way....he simply has to look out for number one.

I don't doubt he was mostly loyal to Robert. It would be high among his priorities. It would just fall second to his own interests, or when he feels not given his due, as per Ned as Hand. Which he himself mentions was very important to him right around the time he makes his 'bad decision ', and presumably lasting throughout the months when that 'bad decision' is maintained. No ravens, not a word to anyone. Just silence.

Until he makes a bid for the throne. Then ravens with w/e proof he'd had all along.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, when the situation changed completely. When you've suddenly become the highest authority in the realm its probably time to speak up.

When your brother and king are in danger, it's probably time to speak up.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Jon Arryn did not have proof. We have nothing to suggest he thought he had proof. Hair colour is not proof. He was hunting for it.

When he died, for Stannis that was proof. Between that and his ravens rationalizing his bid for the throne, he adds exactly nothing to the case. And yet he feels it's strong enough to tell everyone. After Robert.

So here we go, a 'poor decision' to explain a straight line. Like a 'hard choosing' to explain treason. All of these gymnastics.

Whereas when you ask: what's best for Stannis' interests, no gymnastics are needed. It's a straight line. He doesn't need to make a 'bad decision'....and go on making it for months and months, by the way....he simply has to look out for number one.

I don't doubt he was mostly loyal to Robert. It would be high among his priorities. It would just fall second to his own interests, or when he feels not given his due, as per Ned as Hand. Which he himself mentions was very important to him right around the time he makes his 'bad decision ', and presumably lasting throughout the months when that 'bad decision' is maintained. No ravens, not a word to anyone. Just silence.

Until he makes a bid for the throne. Then ravens with w/e proof he'd had all along.

When your brother and king are in danger, it's probably time to speak up.

Yeah, Arryn had the same proof Eddard did, and Eddard thought it was good enough. Stannis had no proof.

I am tired of this. Stannis didn't march under the chopping block by throwing wild accusations of incest and murder around during a time when killing the King would be an awful move from the perspective of those who needed him dead the most, so clearly he only acts in self interest. He didn't send ravens to the Grand Maester Pycelle controlled ravenry, that would have been an ultra smart idea by the way, instead he gathered his measly strength, twirled his moustache and waited for his brother to die so everyone could tell him to fuck off after sending the ravens. It all makes sense now. Absolutely no chance he was weighing his options to see what he could do while negating the threat to his own life and the threat the information he possessed had to Roberts.

Now if you want to talk about sulking at yet another slight done to him by Robert, well, I won't argue with that, the man is a sulker. I'd also say you're an idiot if you think he's given up on Robert, you know, with their history, and Stannis' well known tenacity.

And how is agonising over a hard decision gymnastics? I didn't realise there was an easy option, well there is, if it includes getting yourself killed with probably no positive outcome. But he didn't do that, because he's a human being... Well actually he's a book character, but you get what I am saying.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

Yeah, Arryn had the same proof Eddard did, and Eddard thought it was good enough. Stannis had no proof.

I am tired of this. Stannis didn't march under the chopping block by throwing wild accusations of incest and murder around during a time when killing the King would be an awful move from the perspective of those who needed him dead the most, so clearly he only acts in self interest. He didn't send ravens to the Grand Maester Pycelle controlled ravenry, that would have been an ultra smart idea by the way, instead he gathered his measly strength, twirled his moustache and waited for his brother to die so everyone could tell him to fuck off after sending the ravens. It all makes sense now. Absolutely no chance he was weighing his options to see what he could do while negating the threat to his own life and the threat the information he possessed had to Roberts.

Now if you want to talk about sulking at yet another slight done to him by Robert, well, I won't argue with that, the man is a sulker. I'd also say you're an idiot if you think he's given up on Robert, you know, with their history, and Stannis' well known tenacity.

And how is agonising over a hard decision gymnastics? I didn't realise there was an easy option, well there is, if it includes getting yourself killed with probably no positive outcome. But he didn't do that, because he's a human being... Well actually he's a book character, but you get what I am saying.

I think he left KL because of Robert's decision to choose Ned Stark over Stannis as Hand of the King. He was tired of being passed over. The issue of Robert's succession wasn't urgent. He had no evidence to suggest that Robert was going to get gored. The only reason I could see Stannis being scared and fleeing is if Mel told him he was going to die if he stayed in KL. That I could buy.