R+L=J v.82

[MtnLion]

The only person Ned had to convince after the war was Catelyn.

"Ned came home from the war with a bastard who looks just like him! Woe is me!"

This despite evidence Jon may be older than Robb. Easy for Ned to claim a baby is a little younger than his robust son Robb, and Cat would have blinders on, gripe within earshot of staff (we have evidence of that), and perpetuate the myth to her sister father brother uncle...

A couple pats on the back from Robert for whoring around, and Ned was golden.

... yet I agree that there was some moronic plot armor regarding the lack of suspicion that Lyanna could have borne Rhaegar's child, especially considering how long she was missing.

Everything points to Lyanna dying of puerperal fever, which kills 5 to 10 days after childbirth. That child cannot be older than Robb. Jon's nameday is about a fortnight after Robb's. Jon is younger than Robb. There is no evidence that Jon is older.

[Golden Rose]

The reason why Ned went to Starfall, except to return Dawn to Ashara Dayne, another reason was to confuse people of Jon's parentage. He would let everyone think that Jon can be Ashara's child, having nursed by Wylla, or not. He was fulfilling his promise to Lyanna as he promised to keep Jon safe from Robert and others who want to kill off the Targaryens. He would do anything to live up to it even if it meant risking Ashara and his own names. Ashara was already pregnant at that time and was the perfect "scapegoat" for Ned to use as his smoke and mirrors.

[Woofless]

"And Ned expected that Robert would name him the Hand...

Robert looked at him. “I think you do. If so, you are the only one, my old friend.” He smiled. “Lord Eddard Stark, I would name you the Hand of the King.”

Ned dropped to one knee. The offer did not surprise him; what other reason could Robert have had for coming so far? - AGoT p. 47)."

He may, or may not, have expected it, but I don't think he was at all happy about it. I can't remember at this point had he given his answer to Robert, or was he still wondering how he could get out of it?

[Bloodrobin]

At the post-RR time, Ned wasn't the most honorable guy. He was just a young man like any other who came home with a bastard. His reputation came later. There was no logical reason to doubt Ned's story and that is one of the reasons why it is such well kept secret.

Actually, Ned's reputation seems to have come quite early...

--

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. More's the pity. And yet there was that one time...what was her name, that common girl of yours? [...] You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would rather not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. "You never told me what she looked like..."

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy. You scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well I'll not press you if you feel so strong on it, though I swear at times, you're so prickly you should take the hedgehog as your sigil."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

To me, it's not about Ned's honour but his personality.

On one hand, he's the guy who couldn't even ask Ashara Dayne to dance with him due to being shy. On the other, there is Robert Baratheon, the guy who keeps dreaming about his lost love sixteen years later. Robert, while Lyanna was been raped hundreds of times, found time to bed whores and father a daughter. Ned, is cold (or was, at least) even with his own wife, and he lacked the passion of Brandon and Robert. Does he look like a man who would look for comfort in some woman's bed? Maybe. But lightly improbable.

There is Robb, though. Robb lost his baby brothers and his sisters were kidnapped by the King and Queen. Ned lost his father and brother while his sister was kidnapped by the Prince. Robb found solace with Jeyne and married her because he didn't want to make his father's same mistake, fathering a bastard. And considering GRRM's love for tragic irony, there is a big chance that Ned never actually did that, and his own actions and the lie he had to keep for years caused his own son's doom.

[Nozlym]

im not gonna lie, when i first read about the real reason of why Robb married Jeyne because he didn't want to make his fathers mistake and his love for Jon, i wanted to cry. Such a tragic tale, but excellent story telling.

[corbon]

Actually, Ned's reputation seems to have come quite early...

--

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. ....

Thats character, not reputation though. Thats a close friend's personal knowledge, his best friend and closest companion, fellow ward of Jon Arryn, growing up together as peers more or less.

Reputation is what the people who don't personally know you think.

I very much doubt Ned had much reputation at all before the rebellion. He's a relatively insignificant second son, with the type of character that is the least easily reputation-forming, living almost the shadow of a highly reputable (flamboyant even, in his own way) best friend.

Very few people outside of Jon Arryn's household are likely to have any basis at all to have given Ned Stark a 'reputation' in their eyes.

[Yuki_no_JonI]

hello everybody, i'm new to the forum, but I've been reading for a while and really enjoying it.

I believe in the R+L=J theory, but there's something I don't get, I was wondering if someone could please explain me or point me to the thread where it is disccused. How come no one in Westeros suspected that Lyanna might get pregnant. It's the most natural thing in the world for a man and woman to make a baby, especially after Lyanna died and Ned showed up with a motherless son.

ETA. Correct the autocorrect

I would think that there are two possibilities. One that since noone talked of a baby there wouldn't be a baby ;). not every rape/consectual sex has to end to a child (even in westerosi society.... moon tea etc)

But what I personally believe is that very few people (and especially highborn) where aware of the fact that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna... and even them were wrapped up in the fog of war. So the abduction (and what is the unity between Rhaegar and Lyanna) seemed ages/eons ago compared to the most recent events of RR, Trident, War, Suck of KL, Kingslaying..

so seeing Eddard coming back with a bastard (sth that especially in the north would be shown as even a year after the events... whereas I suppose that the news of Lyanna's death would be transfered immediately (eg via Maester's Crows)) was sth like a rational thing of a man going to war. So, the death of Lyanna was unconnected with the bringing of the bastard. The only irrational think was that Ned claimed his bastard and brought it with him.

I know my post does not make a lot of sense but I'm really bored to make it in essay form...

[Mithras]

“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like…”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

Ned’s dishonoring himself is about hiding Jon from Robert. The mention of gods gives us the idea that he confessed everything in front of a heart tree. Bran must surely bring it up from the archives.

[Ygrain]

Looking at the passages relating to promise me and Lyanna's death, I noticed that while the mention of blood in the room comes fairly early, the actual "bed of blood" appears only much later:

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. (the talk in the crypts)
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (the ToJ dream)
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. (in the Black Cells)

The introduction of "bed of blood" was probably postponed so as not to give away anything too early, but I find it curious that both mentions actually come at a time when Ned is not in control of himself, as if he forbade himself to think about it and the detail creeped in only when his control was slipping.

[Mladen]

Actually, Ned's reputation seems to have come quite early...

--

quote snipped

Actually no. Ned's honor and reputation couldn't have been established that early, since no one knew him. Robert is just expressing what he knows in general about Ned and the quote is not about Ned's honor back then, but as the general term. The story was believable just because no one knew Ned that well, and there were even rumors of Ashara all over Westeros. What Ned did isn't in any way different than what thousands of others did, and that is why Catelyn believed him.

[Ser Leftwich]

Actually no. Ned's honor and reputation couldn't have been established that early, since no one knew him. Robert is just expressing what he knows in general about Ned and the quote is not about Ned's honor back then, but as the general term. The story was believable just because no one knew Ned that well, and there were even rumors of Ashara all over Westeros. What Ned did isn't in any way different than what thousands of others did, and that is why Catelyn believed him.

Agreed. The reputation would be from actions in the war: marrying Catelyn in place of Brandon, objecting to the cutting of Barristan Selmy's throat, and bringing Dawn back to the Dayne's. He may have done other things as well.

[Alia of the knife]

It seems that with the few snippets that we are hearing on Brandons character from the book, Lady D. and TV, crazy Lysa, (and I would take what both said with a grain of salt), but that said, if Brandon is the "cruel" Stark, it pulls it all together even more that he would dishonor/seduce/toy with Ashara Dayne, only to abandon her.

She then turns up pregnant, and turns to Ned or Rickard as the only ones who had any sway over Brandon.

[Ygrain]

From over here, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110805-jon-is-neds-son-hlmj-crackpot-maybe/?p=5827785

awoiaf clearly makes every event leading up to the calling for the heads of Ned and Robert happen before Aegon's birth.

Could someone take a look what exactly is stated over there?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

From over here, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110805-jon-is-neds-son-hlmj-crackpot-maybe/?p=5827785

Could someone take a look what exactly is stated over there?

I've thrown some timeline logic in there ;)

[Ygrain]

I've thrown some timeline logic in there ;)

I meant, what's stated in AWOIAF, but your timelines are always welcome :-)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But they know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were missing for a whole year, banging. Even if they do believe Jon is Ned's, no one ever wondered if they had a child somewhere? And not everybody believed he raped her. Cersei doesn't. Neither Barristan.

Yes this was my main point. 2 people locked in passion for a year, maybe the result would be a kid?? I'm just saying it is kind of obvious.

[sj4iy]

But they know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were missing for a whole year, banging. Even if they do believe Jon is Ned's, no one ever wondered if they had a child somewhere? And not everybody believed he raped her. Cersei doesn't. Neither Barristan.

Well, even if they did think there might be a child, what evidence was there? No one was going to doubt someone like Ned Stark when he said that the child was his bastard with everything that it would cost him to raise the child as his own. I wouldn't be surprised if some people had looked, but it wasn't as if there was anything to find.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps part of the reason no one suspected Jon was actually Lyanna's was the vagueness that surrounded the location of Jon's mother. We have theorized before here that Ned might have kept Jon hidden as far as Greywater Watch (where Jon perhaps traveled with only Howland Reed while Ned visited KL to tell Robert about Lyanna's death). If Ned suddenly appears with a child mid-Westeros, after having been seen carrying around Lyanna's remains without a babe, people might not make the connection that quickly. After all, Howland Reed not being present with Ned if Ned indeed went to KL should have gone reasonably unnoticed. Howland is not such a well known man in Westeros after all.

[Mithras]

The mud was such a dark brown it appeared almost black, but there were swathes of golden sand as well, upthrust rocks both grey and red, and tangles of black and green seaweed.

The upthrust rock both grey and red is the stone dragon (Jon Snow) who is both Stark (grey) and Targaryen (red).