R+L=J v.82

[MtnLion]

Looking at the passages relating to promise me and Lyanna's death, I noticed that while the mention of blood in the room comes fairly early, the actual "bed of blood" appears only much later:

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. (the talk in the crypts)

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (the ToJ dream)

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. (in the Black Cells)

The introduction of "bed of blood" was probably postponed so as not to give away anything too early, but I find it curious that both mentions actually come at a time when Ned is not in control of himself, as if he forbade himself to think about it and the detail creeped in only when his control was slipping.

That is odd, Ygrain. Ned has several moments, early on, where he hesitates. He brought Lyanna . . . flowers often.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

That is odd, Ygrain. Ned has several moments, early on, where he hesitates. He brought Lyanna . . . flowers often.

He is always hesitating when Lyanna comes up because he always has to be ultra careful what he says about her, he can't let anything slip. He has to plan every word carefully to everyone. Also he is still very remorseful about the whole thing :( poor guy.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

And what if....

Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" were nothing but what lady Dustin tells herself to cope with the idea of Brandon AND Ned rejecting her? Pretty much like Cersei said that Aerys's reason to reject her for Rhaegar was his own madness.

"Southern Ambitions" is being over analyzed IMO. Everthing below the Northern Realm is south. So the Tullys could be a southern ambition. Pair that with Lyanna's betrothal to the heir to Storm's End being another form of southern ambition. It comes off, to me at least, as common tribalism.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"Southern Ambitions" is being over analyzed IMO. Everthing below the Northern Realm is south. So the Tullys could be a southern ambition. Pair that with Lyanna's betrothal to the heir to Storm's End being another form of southern ambition. It comes off, to me at least, as common tribalism.

Yep. Many consider their souther ambitions as a political/military goals. It could be economical, knowing that eventually a long winter was coming and he needed powerful allies from the south to survive.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

"Southern Ambitions" is being over analyzed IMO. Everthing below the Northern Realm is south. So the Tullys could be a southern ambition. Pair that with Lyanna's betrothal to the heir to Storm's End being another form of southern ambition. It comes off, to me at least, as common tribalism.

Well you could be right about the first part, but as Lady Dustin said, Rickard had southron ambitions he didnt want to mess up by not marrying Brandon to Catelyn. So the Southron ambitions were something separate from the Brandon/Catelyn match.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Hi again, R+L people, can you please explain this line?

"[Jon] was dark where Robb was fair...." AGOT Bran I

Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna was "dark", they were both considered fair-skinned. Sure, Lyanna had dark hair but since when is Auburn hair considered light? Sounds like this means skin tone.

Contrasting Robb and Jon, what could be considered "fair in contrast to Jon"?

Full passage:

"Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast."

So, dark versus fair. The eyes were already mentioned, so that leaves skin and hair.

I've never heard anyone call someone with auburn hair fair... unless they were referring to skin color.

fair

fe(ə)r

adjective

2. (of hair or complexion) light; blond.

synonyms: blond/blonde, yellowish, golden, flaxen, light, light brown, ash blond

"fair hair"

pale, light, light-colored, white, creamy

It can absolutely refer to the hair. Robb has blue eyes and bright auburn hair. Jon has dark eyes and hair color. Standing side-by-side it would be acceptable to describe one as fair and one as dark.

Thanks for hitting the point home harder for us R+L=J fans. Jon is described as lean and agile, just like his papa, Rhaegar! Plus, Jon is often described as sullen and thoughtful, just like Rhaegar.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

True.

1. Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna. Robert spreads the story that he rapes her, but those who know Rhae say he loved her and Ned implies in his narration she ran with him willingly, but all parties agree on the fact that they had sex, consensual or not.

2. No one saw Lyanna for a year and some time.

3. Ned Stark visits Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, a visit only very few witnessed, after which she was dead on a "bed of blood".

4. Ned Stark, the ever so honorable shows up a few months later with a baby who looks very much like the Starks in general, says it's his baby.

Hah. Talk about the Westerosi being stupid. However I do believe someone here or there might have noticed, maybe Varys.

Haha. About that dying in a "bed of blood." It's always been my belief, immediately as I was reading A Game of Thrones the first time, that the bed of blood completely symbolized child birth. If it resulted from one of her "captors" stabbing her or causing her to bleed out or whatever, that Ned would have gone to the king and said "Rhaegar AND THAT OTHER ASSHOLE killed my sister, your betrothed." The omission of guilt and complete lack of blame against Rhaegar from Ned's perspective make no sense if he also thought she was kidnapped and raped and murder, all by the same man. In contrast, at times he thinks of Rhaegar in a positive light. Which begs the question:

If someone kidnaps, rapes and murders your sister, could you ever feel anything but pure hatred for said person? Robert's reactions are very appropriate if his world view reflects the realities of that world. Given Ned's perspectives, it's easy to conclude that Ned does not believe Rhaegar kidnapped, raped and murdered his sister.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well you could be right about the first part, but as Lady Dustin said, Rickard had southron ambitions he didnt want to mess up by not marrying Brandon to Catelyn. So the Southron ambitions were something separate from the Brandon/Catelyn match.

Yeah, but her opinion makes the difference:

Reality: Let's marry Brandon to a southern girl, Cat. That would make a good alliance, and unify the North and our southern neighbours.

What LD thinks: Of course he would marry Brandon to Cat, is OBVIOUS he's doing it because he wants political and military power. What else would he be rejecting ME when Brandon LOVES and ENJOYS ME. Brandon wouldn't lie to me!

That's pretty much what Cersei thinks. "Aerys rejected ME because he's mad". Aerys rejected her because 1. He didn't want to give Tywin more power, 2. He wanted Rhaegar married to another "dragon".

[sj4iy]

It can absolutely refer to the hair. Robb has blue eyes and bright auburn hair. Jon has dark eyes and hair color. Standing side-by-side it would be acceptable to describe one as fair and one as dark.

Thanks for hitting the point home harder for us R+L=J fans. Jon is described as lean and agile, just like his papa, Rhaegar! Plus, Jon is often described as sullen and thoughtful, just like Rhaegar.

Yeah, I've never read that line as anything but hair color and eyes.

[Ygrain]

If someone kidnaps, rapes and murders your sister, could you ever feel anything but pure hatred for said person? Robert's reactions are very appropriate if his world view reflects the realities of that world. Given Ned's perspectives, it's easy to conclude that Ned does not believe Rhaegar kidnapped, raped and murdered his sister.

Pure hatred till the end of my days, and I'd never, ever, draw a comparison between my sister's rapist and her betrothed, in favour of the rapist :-)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah, but her opinion makes the difference:

Reality: Let's marry Brandon to a southern girl, Cat. That would make a good alliance, and unify the North and our southern neighbours.

What LD thinks: Of course he would marry Brandon to Cat, is OBVIOUS he's doing it because he wants political and military power. What else would he be rejecting ME when Brandon LOVES and ENJOYS ME. Brandon wouldn't lie to me!

That's pretty much what Cersei thinks. "Aerys rejected ME because he's mad". Aerys rejected her because 1. He didn't want to give Tywin more power, 2. He wanted Rhaegar married to another "dragon".

I agree LD could have been slightly wrong. I just think that Rickard had other Southron ambitions besides the Catelyn/Brandon marriage is all.

Edit: because the Robert/Lyanna match was not Rickards idea, it was Roberts idea brought to Rickard by Ned.

[J. Stargaryen]

Haha. About that dying in a "bed of blood." It's always been my belief, immediately as I was reading A Game of Thrones the first time, that the bed of blood completely symbolized child birth. If it resulted from one of her "captors" stabbing her or causing her to bleed out or whatever, that Ned would have gone to the king and said "Rhaegar AND THAT OTHER ASSHOLE killed my sister, your betrothed." The omission of guilt and complete lack of blame against Rhaegar from Ned's perspective make no sense if he also thought she was kidnapped and raped and murder, all by the same man. In contrast, at times he thinks of Rhaegar in a positive light. Which begs the question:

If someone kidnaps, rapes and murders your sister, could you ever feel anything but pure hatred for said person? Robert's reactions are very appropriate if his world view reflects the realities of that world. Given Ned's perspectives, it's easy to conclude that Ned does not believe Rhaegar kidnapped, raped and murdered his sister.

:agree:

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”

There was nothing Ned could say to that. After a quiet, he said, “We should return, Your Grace. Your wife will be waiting.”

- AGoT, Eddard I

This is very telling, imo.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is very telling, imo.

Ned is very protective of Robert, too. He couldn't tell him how his wife has cheated on him, which could have saved the realm. And probably, he realised he couldn't kill the only fantasy Robert desperately wanted to believe. Letting him know Lyanna loved Rhaegar would have destroy Robert completely.

[J. Stargaryen]

Ned is very protective of Robert, too. He couldn't tell him how his wife has cheated on him, which could have saved the realm. And probably, he realised he couldn't kill the only fantasy Robert desperately wanted to believe. Letting him know Lyanna loved Rhaegar would have destroy Robert completely.

Exactly. Which is why I think it's telling.

[Ser Leftwich]

I agree LD could have been slightly wrong. I just think that Rickard had other Southron ambitions besides the Catelyn/Brandon marriage is all.

Edit: because the Robert/Lyanna match was not Rickards idea, it was Roberts idea brought to Rickard by Ned.

Wasn't there something in the App that implied that Rickard was trying to entice Robert to ask for Lyanna's hand? I may be recalling the exact language incorrectly.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Pure hatred till the end of my days, and I'd never, ever, draw a comparison between my sister's rapist and her betrothed, in favour of the rapist :-)

Quote

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”

There was nothing Ned could say to that. After a quiet, he said, “We should return, Your Grace. Your wife will be waiting.”

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

:agree:

- AGoT, Eddard I

This is very telling, imo.

:agree:

and of course there's this:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not

The lie of this is that Ned actually thinks of Rhaegar frequently. In seven out of nine of his POV chapters to that point, Ned thinks about or mentions Rhaegar, and never with a negative. In fact he thinks of Rhaegar's murdered children, of Rhaegar's death and the Battle of the Trident but in spite of the fact that he recalls his sister's death on a number of occasions, not once does he actively blame Rhaegar, as Robert does, or even think of him with regard to it. In fact the above is his clearest sustained thought of Rhaegar, in which he compares him to his best friend and the friend comes up wanting.

Telling indeed.

[J. Stargaryen]

:agree:

and of course there's this:

The lie of this is that Ned actually thinks of Rhaegar frequently. In seven out of nine of his POV chapters to that point, Ned thinks about or mentions Rhaegar, and never with a negative. In fact he thinks of Rhaegar's murdered children, of Rhaegar's death and the Battle of the Trident but in spite of the fact that he recalls his sister's death on a number of occasions, not once does he actively blame Rhaegar, as Robert does, or even think of him with regard to it. In fact the above is his clearest sustained thought of Rhaegar, in which he compares him to his best friend and the friend comes up wanting.

Telling indeed.

I knew I was forgetting something. ;)

[Alia of the knife]

This from tPatQ on the death of a dragon:

"Stormcloud had been terribly wounded as he fled, arriving with the stubs of countless arrows embedded in his belly and a scorpion bolt through his neck. He died within the hour, hissing as the hot blood gushed black and smoking from his wounds."

Also found this image which is apt:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/3b/fc/c83bfcfef043cdb6d6c9dc0c7b70be41.jpg

[Fire Eater]

This from tPatQ on the death of a dragon:

"Stormcloud had been terribly wounded as he fled, arriving with the stubs of countless arrows embedded in his belly and a scorpion bolt through his neck. He died within the hour, hissing as the hot blood gushed black and smoking from his wounds."

Also found this image which is apt:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/3b/fc/c83bfcfef043cdb6d6c9dc0c7b70be41.jpg

Once a man had said the words his blood was black.

In the cold night air the [Jon's] wound was smoking.

Stormcloud received a scorpion bolt to the neck, and arrows in his belly whereas Jon got struck in the neck by Wick Whittlestick and Marsh put a dagger in his belly.