R+L=J v.82

[JonCon's Red Beard]

hello everybody, i'm new to the forum, but I've been reading for a while and really enjoying it.

I believe in the R+L=J theory, but there's something I don't get, I was wondering if someone could please explain me or point me to the thread where it is disccused. How come no one in Westeros suspected that Lyanna might get pregnant. It's the most natural thing in the world for a man and woman to make a baby, especially after Lyanna died and Ned showed up with a motherless son.

ETA. Correct the autocorrect

My theory is that everybody's IQ dropped like 50 points after Robert was made King. "When the King laughs, the whole court laughs with him"... when the King's stupid... well... that.

Seriously, I'm sure that many suspected she got pregnant, after all, Rhaegar was "raping her" for a whole year. But such child never surfaced, nor was mentioned by anybody else, so, not child. Many even could have considered that some Targaryen loyalists could have saved him but as such child was nothing but a Targaryen "bastard" (as far as people know), some might not even care. Then, Ned appears with a kid who is identical to him. And Ned never lies. He says "yeah, he's my bastard". What's more credible at that point? That Ned fathered a bastard during the war or that Rhaegar actually left a son and Ned is hiding him somewhere? They don't know all the information we know.

[MtnLion]

But, Ned is the most honorable man in Westeros. Who would question his story?

[Mladen]

hello everybody, i'm new to the forum, but I've been reading for a while and really enjoying it.

I believe in the R+L=J theory, but there's something I don't get, I was wondering if someone could please explain me or point me to the thread where it is disccused. How come no one in Westeros suspected that Lyanna might get pregnant. It's the most natural thing in the world for a man and woman to make a baby, especially after Lyanna died and Ned showed up with a motherless son.

ETA. Correct the autocorrect

hahaha, Yes when you say it like that, it does make everyone in Westeros look sort of stupid.

Not so much. Ned's story was believable especially with the rumors about Ashara and his visit to Starfall. Plus, who wouldn't believe his story? Even Robert who knew him the best immediately bought the story about his bastard. These things happen in war. No one was surprised when Ned came with bastard, because I believe, he wasn't the only one who had bastard. And Ned didn't come with motherless child, he just claimed that kid is his, and mother is some random peasant. Completely believable story.

[Pigeon Pie]

hahaha, Yes when you say it like that, it does make everyone in Westeros look sort of stupid.

True.

1. Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna. Robert spreads the story that he rapes her, but those who know Rhae say he loved her and Ned implies in his narration she ran with him willingly, but all parties agree on the fact that they had sex, consensual or not.

2. No one saw Lyanna for a year and some time.

3. Ned Stark visits Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, a visit only very few witnessed, after which she was dead on a "bed of blood".

4. Ned Stark, the ever so honorable shows up a few months later with a baby who looks very much like the Starks in general, says it's his baby.

Hah. Talk about the Westerosi being stupid. However I do believe someone here or there might have noticed, maybe Varys.

[Mladen]

But, Ned is the most honorable man in Westeros. Who would question his story?

4. Ned Stark, the ever so honorable shows up a few months later with a baby who looks very much like the Starks in general, says it's his baby.

Hah. Talk about the Westerosi being stupid. However I do believe someone here or there might have noticed, maybe Varys.

At the post-RR time, Ned wasn't the most honorable guy. He was just a young man like any other who came home with a bastard. His reputation came later. There was no logical reason to doubt Ned's story and that is one of the reasons why it is such well kept secret.

[Chebyshov]

At the post-RR time, Ned wasn't the most honorable guy. He was just a young man like any other who came home with a bastard. His reputation came later. There was no logical reason to doubt Ned's story and that is one of the reasons why it is such well kept secret.

This mostly. But even if he was viewed as being incredibly honorable, then wouldn't people be less inclined to question his word? If he says this is his bastard, I think people would take that at face value.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

True.

1. Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna. Robert spreads the story that he rapes her, but those who know Rhae say he loved her and Ned implies in his narration she ran with him willingly, but all parties agree on the fact that they had sex, consensual or not.

2. No one saw Lyanna for a year and some time.

3. Ned Stark visits Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, a visit only very few witnessed, after which she was dead on a "bed of blood".

4. Ned Stark, the ever so honorable shows up a few months later with a baby who looks very much like the Starks in general, says it's his baby.

Hah. Talk about the Westerosi being stupid. However I do believe someone here or there might have noticed, maybe Varys.

We know that Lyanna died in a bed of blood, Ned knows, Howland Reed probably knows, but the rest of Westeros doesn't know. They most likely only know that Lyanna died due to a fever.

[Alia of the knife]

I also think the "heart in conflict with itself" is a major theme.

Everyone that is honorable can misstep, and everyone that is not so honorable can have their moments of grace.

Ned isn't dishonorable in matters of the flesh, but he is deceptive in other matters of his life. though to be sure, that deception it is certainly understandable, but it is contradictory and at times seem to take a toll on his peace.

[FittleLinger]

Ned's story combines perfectly him being an honest man (claiming the bastard) with the "oh, he's human after all". People, and especially Robert, are happier to not question something that makes them feel better about themselves.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

We know that Lyanna died in a bed of blood, Ned knows, Howland Reed probably knows, but the rest of Westeros doesn't know. They most likely only know that Lyanna died due to a fever.

But they know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were missing for a whole year, banging. Even if they do believe Jon is Ned's, no one ever wondered if they had a child somewhere? And not everybody believed he raped her. Cersei doesn't. Neither Barristan.

[FittleLinger]

Ned's story combines perfectly him being an honest man (claiming the bastard) with the "oh, he's human after all". People, and especially Robert, are happier to not question something that makes them feel better about themselves.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Not sure if I have anything worthwhile to say on the matter, but... I'm genuinely impressed that you've managed to fill eighty-one threads about this theory. Their combined word count surely must rival ASoIaF itself by now?

[Fool of a Book]

The only person Ned had to convince after the war was Catelyn.

"Ned came home from the war with a bastard who looks just like him! Woe is me!"

This despite evidence Jon may be older than Robb. Easy for Ned to claim a baby is a little younger than his robust son Robb, and Cat would have blinders on, gripe within earshot of staff (we have evidence of that), and perpetuate the myth to her sister father brother uncle...

A couple pats on the back from Robert for whoring around, and Ned was golden.

... yet I agree that there was some moronic plot armor regarding the lack of suspicion that Lyanna could have borne Rhaegar's child, especially considering how long she was missing.

[AlliYoyo]

The only person Ned had to convince after the war was Catelyn.

"Ned came home from the war with a bastard who looks just like him! Woe is me!"

This despite evidence Jon may be older than Robb. Easy for Ned to claim a baby is a little younger than his robust son Robb, and Cat would have blinders on, gripe within earshot of staff (we have evidence of that), and perpetuate the myth to her sister father brother uncle...

A couple pats on the back from Robert for whoring around, and Ned was golden.

... yet I agree that there was some moronic plot armor regarding the lack of suspicion that Lyanna could have borne Rhaegar's child, especially considering how long she was missing.

Mind you, with what happened to Rhaegar's children with Elia, it may be not so much that no one thought of the possibility of a child, but rather that if the thought occurred to them, any such child would have been killed to vouchsafe Roberts claim to the throne.

Edited to get rid of a double quote. Don't know what happened there...

[Fire Eater]

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"
Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."
"Kings and dragons."

Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders

Another possible hint in the same vein as Robert's "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"? With ashes and cinders connected with kings and dragons, and Mel says all she sees in her fires is snow (likely Jon), this could be a hint that under "Snow" lies a king and a dragon (Targaryen).

[TheonGreyjoy]

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"

Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons."

Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders

Another possible hint on the same vein as Robert's "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"? With ashes connected with kings and dragons, and Mel says all she sees in her fires is snow (likely Jon), this could be a hint that under "Snow" lies a king and a dragon (Targaryen).

Always great quotes from you FE.

[FrozenFire3]

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"

Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons."

Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders

Another possible hint in the same vein as Robert's "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"? With ashes and cinders connected with kings and dragons, and Mel says all she sees in her fires is snow (likely Jon), this could be a hint that under "Snow" lies a king and a dragon (Targaryen).

This another fantastic catch. Also, very poetic.

[WexPyke]

Since we are on thread 82 on this...

When does GRRM confirm this? Next book or do we wait for the last? Does Jon die and be resurrected or somehow live through his wounds?

[Mithras]

Bran shook his head. “I was just remembering,” he said. “Jory brought us here once, to fish for trout. You and me and Jon. Do you remember?”

“I remember,” Robb said, his voice quiet and sad.

“I didn’t catch anything,” Bran said, “but Jon gave me his fish on the way back to Winterfell. Will we ever see Jon again?”

“We saw Uncle Benjen when the king came to visit,” Robb pointed out. “Jon will visit too, you’ll see.”

[MtnLion]

Bran shook his head. “I was just remembering,” he said. “Jory brought us here once, to fish for trout. You and me and Jon. Do you remember?”

“I remember,” Robb said, his voice quiet and sad.

“I didn’t catch anything,” Bran said, “but Jon gave me his fish on the way back to Winterfell. Will we ever see Jon again?”

“We saw Uncle Benjen when the king came to visit,” Robb pointed out. “Jon will visit too, you’ll see.”

Yes, how GRRM chortles. He likes his little word plays.

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"

Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons."

Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders

Another possible hint in the same vein as Robert's "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"? With ashes and cinders connected with kings and dragons, and Mel says all she sees in her fires is snow (likely Jon), this could be a hint that under "Snow" lies a king and a dragon (Targaryen).