[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[andrew_]

I can't say I approve of all those spear twirls before and during the fight, if they wanted to show that Oberyn was a great warrior, they should've had Jaimie and Tyrion talk about how he got his nickname and more about his reputation, but still, the fight was done very well, thank the lord they didn't keep season 2 Gregor, that would've been a travesty. Also love Ellaria screaming as she watched Oberyn die. I would've loved to see Tyrion collapse as he does in the book if I remember correctly. The scene was a solid 8.5/10.

[Relic]

I would've loved to see Tyrion collapse as he does in the book if I remember correctly. The scene was a solid 8.5/10.

In the books he vomits peppered eggs, prepared dornish style. Which i would have preferred to watch over the shit in this episode.

[KalibakCruel]

Personally I don't see the reason for the backlash, I thought it was a great episode.

[D-A-C]

Well, all I can say is, I am very, very glad that I was able to read this fight before watching it, that was incredibly disappointing compared to the fight we get in the books.

I actually now feel really bad for the majority of my friends who haven't read the books and rely solely on the T.V show for advancing the story.

Well, where to begin? I suppose lets discuss the positives:

1. Oberyn's Darth Maul Acrobatics - Almost perfect, (there will be a slight complaint about it in the negatives though lol) he nailed his fighting style, Pedro has been an absolute revelation this season, making is early departure even more heart wrenching.

2. Eye Gouge / Death Scream / Lover's Scream - All were absolutely soul destroying and brutal as it they should be.

Now, onto the many negatives:

1. Lack of build up - As always with this show we spend 80% of the episode in other places doing some very boring exposition and general crap, much of which is starting to deviate badly from the books.

2. No Emphasis on Poison - I will re-watch it, but my initial impression is that it is going to be hard for people to understand Oberyn had a fight strategy of wearing his opponent down, nicking the weak points of his armour, arguably (my own book interpretation) using Poison to increase the likely hood of gaining a confession in public, implicating Tywin for all to see. I mean, we actually had someone cleaning his spear and I immediately thought 'hey, you'll wipe the poison off idiot!'

3. Over too quickly / Too Much Cutting - There needed to be more time for The Mountain to become exhausted, to fall because of his many wounds, for the words, the importance, the meaning of this fight to be made fully clear to audience members unfamiliar with the books.

Also I will agree, that there was too much cutting, and for example, moments when Oberyn caught Claganes knee needed close ups to emphasise 'this is the plan people!' death by 1000 cuts until he gets the confession and also wears him down.

4. Crushing Oberyns head - In a word awful, and for me actually detracted from the horror of seeing Oberyn die in such a way. The punch was spot on, the eye gouging awful but powerful, but he then should have either smashed his head in by repeatedly slamming it on the ground or with crushing blows from a mailed fist not squeezing it like that which is actually just silly now that I think about it.

5. Tyrion didn't vomit - Enough said, it needed to happen to both reinforce the disgusting spectacle but also as the 'I'm fucked' moment that he experiences

6. Audience not getting caught up in things - With all the reaction shots being fired around, you would think this would have been a given. It added such a chaotic element to the fight, why not have it?

7. Lannister Reactions - This one could be completely on me, and because of how I read all the stuff around this fight, both in the build up AND crucially in the aftermath. But Cersie and Tywin both reacted too happily, too nonchalant about the fact a Prince of Dorne just got obliterated in front of them and that the Mountain sort of confessed publicly. Like I said this criticism is probably a very personal nitpicking one, but there was just somthing about the cut to the stands at the end, and I just felt 'is that it? That's you reaction? A smug sense of satisfaction just didnt seem justified, but again, that could entirely be me and my interpretation.

8. No Passion - Just to remphasise, using star wars an example, it has often been said the Lightsaber fights in New Hope / Empire Strikes are much better than the dazziling display in Episode 1, 2, 3 because they had such emotional charge behind them. This is another example I think were there needed to be more emotion, more passion, more build up to really raise the stakes. Now don't get me wrong I loved Oberyn's fighting style, but if there had been some added passion, some more emphasis on the emotion of this fight for everyone involved it would have been better.

There are probably a few other negatives, and maybe one positive somewhere when I give the scene a closer look, this post is just my initial 'I have just watched it and want to comment post' lol.

Overall I am, as I said, in the position of someone who is incredibly disappointed.

For me the T.V show now is nothing more than a tolerable accompanying piece, but the books will be the real Game of Thrones for me. Everything is more rich, more detailed, and better layed out.

GRRM doesn't keep things going because the T.V crowd just love Arya and the Hound, wasted trips to crastors keep because the audience needs 'action' or will fall asleep, doesn't have to follow this ridiculous 'wait till episode 9 for big battles policy' or play about with constant meeting chances between Starks and he can take as many pages as he likes to set thinks up and then follow them through to their completion.

For such a pivotal moment I think this one has to go down as a complete f*ck up by the T.V producers, directors etc.

However, well done Pedro Pascal, you were phenomenal!!! Its just a shame the converting of the source material didn't give you as much to work with as it should have, but fuck me did you nail it anyway! Pedro is now officially who I will be picturing Oberyn as during my re-reads of the series.

Overall though I am completely disappointed by tonights weak effort, not just with the fight itself, but with the decisions made about what stories to include and advance all with it. It was poorly paced, poorly done ... do you guys get that I didn't like it by now :) ?

[KalibakCruel]

The books being better than the filmed version? Well that's just unheard of.

[Kungsmurfen]

I can't say I approve of all those spear twirls before and during the fight, if they wanted to show that Oberyn was a great warrior, they should've had Jaimie and Tyrion talk about how he got his nickname and more about his reputation, but still, the fight was done very well, thank the lord they didn't keep season 2 Gregor, that would've been a travesty. Also love Ellaria screaming as she watched Oberyn die. I would've loved to see Tyrion collapse as he does in the book if I remember correctly. The scene was a solid 8.5/10.

I didn't have anything against the spear twirls but I really wanted them to speak of how Oberyn got his nickname :frown5:

4. Crushing Oberyns head - In a word awful, and for me actually detracted from the horror of seeing Oberyn die in such a way. The punch was spot on, the eye gouging awful but powerful, but he then should have either smashed his head in by repeatedly slamming it on the ground or with crushing blows from a mailed fist not squeezing it like that which is actually just silly

:agree: That's probably my only problem with the fight.

[NightStark]

4. Crushing Oberyns head - In a word awful, and for me actually detracted from the horror of seeing Oberyn die in such a way. The punch was spot on, the eye gouging awful but powerful, but he then should have either smashed his head in by repeatedly slamming it on the ground or with crushing blows from a mailed fist not squeezing it like that which is actually just silly now that I think about it.

He did smash his head on the ground, he was squeezing Oberyn's head and he said 'then I smashed her head in like this' and boom he slammed it down on the ground.

Edit: Actually now that I watch it on YT he didn't slam it he just pressed on his head.

[clawson24]

Didn't dig the Mountain's "WWE-esque" turnaround. Went from seemingly playing dead/not reacting in any way to tripping Oberyn and taking the upper hand instantaneously. Would've preferred to see him struggling to get back up or something.

Also, the fight didn't last long enough to look like Oberyn wore Gregor down. He basically just flat out beat him with a couple stabs and a spear slash to the ankle/achilles. His victory seemed easier on the show than in the books where it's clear that one little slip and Oberyn's toast. In the show Gregor looked like a somewhat uncoordinated oaf who just happened to be massive.

[Envie]

Even though I knew it was coming and even told myself I would not watch the end - I did, and I'm still in shock. I can only imagine what non-book readers must have felt at that moment.

I really don't see how (yet. maybe tomorrow) people can be so casually nitpicking away at the scene's every tiny detail as if they're putting up white cards that say 6.5, 5.5, 7.0 and remarking on a missed double axle at an ice skating competition. You guys are cold to the core haha.

But for me, it was one of the most powerful moments in the book and I cried through it long before I read the gruesome ending for Oberyn. I was crying for Elia and tonight I cried again. I don't know why this one gets me so much but I wish I could thank Pedro for bringing it to life as George wrote it. The emotion and desire to avenge her and her children was there. And it ends as sadly as the rest. Pointless but powerful.

:(

[Rhaquentis]

Epicness. It was a bit short, but still amazing. :bowdown:

[Titan]

The pacing of cuts tears the content to pieces, is the thing. You can't treat a guy with a two meter sword and another with an 8 foot spear as if they're punching one another -- room is needed for the weapons. And yes, while I hate the wushu acrobatics as a concept for Dornish fighting, in practice it was terrible for the fight because all of those stunts were from a stunt double, meaning they had to resort to various techniques to hide it -- like those crane shots way up in the air that basically just pull you way out so you can't see much of anything.

Bad decisions lead to poor content, basically.

I'll do a proper count tomorrow, as prep for our video review.

Wonderful. (Irony alert) And entirely predictable, Ran. You've clearly built up this moment in the book and expected it to be like the Rob Roy duels for YEARS in your head. This seems perfectly clear based on your endless tweets and postings here with links to the Rob Roy duel over the last two weeks.

That the show fails to live up to that is not the show's fault. It is yours.

And the idea that you will do a proper "cut count" is to prove how un-Rob-Roy this duel is just so endlessly predictable. But go ahead.

-----------

For me this duel was extremely satisfying, and visceral on a level I have never seen. It definitely lived up to my expectation after reading the book. But that is just my take.

[D-A-C]

The books being better than the filmed version? Well that's just unheard of.

If your not being sarcastic I apologize, but if I am right in interpretating you that way:

http://www.totalfilm.com/features/50-movies-that-were-better-than-the-books/donnie-brasco-1997

There are plenty of examples of films exceeding the source material. So giving the director, etc a pass because the books will 'always be better and deeper' isn't a valid excuse.

In my own experiennce my viewing of Shawshank Redemption is a perfect example, I watched the film, then read the book and wnt, 'damn, that was a million times better on screen' :)

However if you weren't being sarcastic, once again, I do apologize.

He did smash his head on the ground, he was squeezing Oberyn's head and he said 'then I smashed her head in like this' and boom he slammed it down on the ground.

He doesn't actually, and if that's what we are supposed to get, then the directors are really messing up how we are supposed to view things alot this season (cersie rape anyone?).

My interpretation was he has both his fingers gouging his eyes and then squeezed his skull between his hands till it popped in a ridiculous way.

[KalibakCruel]

If your not being sarcastic I apologize, but if I am right in interpretating you that way:

http://www.totalfilm.com/features/50-movies-that-were-better-than-the-books/the-firm-1993

There are plenty of examples of films exceeding the source material. So giving the director, etc a pass because the books will 'always be better and deeper' isn't a valid excuse.

In my own my Shawshank Redemption is a perfect example, you watch the film, then read the book and go, 'damn, that was a million times better on screen' :)

However if you weren't being sarcastic, once again, I do apologize.

He doesn't actually, and if that's what we are supposed to get, then the directors are really messing up how we are supposed to view things alot this season (cersie rape anyone?).

My interpretation was he has both his fingers gouging his eyes and then squeezed his skull between his hands till it popped in a ridiculous way.

No worries i was mostly just joking with my sarcasm. But yeah it's rare that film surpasses the source material, even rarer even the source material is as well written as asoiaf.

Edit: Shawshank was beyond great lol

[NightStark]

He doesn't actually, and if that's what we are supposed to get, then the directors are really messing up how we are supposed to view things alot this season (cersie rape anyone?).

My interpretation was he has both his fingers gouging his eyes and then squeezed his skull between his hands till it popped in a ridiculous way.

Yeah I edited to that effect.

[Pod The Impaler]

They basically did the fight as I expected, but it seemed to come off as less intense than I had hoped.

Ditch the spear twirling, I agree.

More reaction from the audience - especially Lannisters - would have been nice. These are high stakes. Cersei wants Tywion to die; Tyrion wants to live; and Tywin does not want Gregor confessing about who ordered Elia & her children to be killed.

A longer fight would have been nice, more emphasis on the fact that by the middle Gregor was frustrated and enraged, and then at the end, in agony.

Okay, so he crushed his head instead of punching it with an armoured fist, but I can live with that.

On a positive note, we got to hear "I'm going to kill that.", and see Oberyn run Gregor through with the spear.

[PhoenixFlame]

Just to comment on the Rob Roy comparisons, it's a very different scene. The first big "WTF!" is the clothes-obsessed fop being a murder monkey, then it's the lack of any Hollywood sword banter. Awesome, but notable for it's lack of dialogue and staccato pacing. I don't think it would've worked....Oberyn going from Princess Bride to Rob Roy...

In the moment, my two quibbles were the odd slowness (and positioning) of slicing the Mountain's calf...total nitpick but kind of weird, and juicing his face. Teeth skittering, AWESOME! Squeezing was a wee bit too X-men for me. But, la, I still squealed when we saw his ruined face and Tyrion's perfect "WTF" expression.

[Red Raven]

The editing was pretty crappy. Not impressed with this episode.

Did Pedro have a stunt double? He trained pretty hard for the fight, taking lessons from a wu-shu master and practicing the choreography for weeks and weeks.

[Stonering]

I was sorely disappointed in the fight choreography - it should have been longer and given us a sense of the progression of the duel. The producers succumbed to flashy cuts, overhead shots (due to the double), lots of corny twirls etc. Cuts are fine if they are used to cut in quickly to a significant bit of movement, but this didn't happen. We didn't get to see the Mountain being worn down, didn't even get to see that he really should have been too close to death to do anything. Someone said they saw a squire putting something on Oberyn's spear, but I didn't catch that and I wonder how many did. We really should know there was poison on the spear.

The long scene between Jamie and Tyrion was not that elucidating and should have been cut to give more time to the fight and the build up to it. All in all, a disappointing end of the episode. Hope the battle at the Wall next week is much, much better.

[Relic]

Well, all I can say is, I am very, very glad that I was able to read this fight before watching it, that was incredibly disappointing compared to the fight we get in the books.

I

8. No Passion - Just to remphasise, using star wars an example, it has often been said the Lightsaber fights in New Hope / Empire Strikes are much better than the dazziling display in Episode 1, 2, 3 because they had such emotional charge behind them. This is another example I think were there needed to be more emotion, more passion, more build up to really raise the stakes. Now don't get me wrong I loved Oberyn's fighting style, but if there had been some added passion, some more emphasis on the emotion of this fight for everyone involved it would have been better.

There are probably a few other negatives, and maybe one positive somewhere when I give the scene a closer look, this post is just my initial 'I have just watched it and want to comment post' lol.

Overall I am, as I said, in the position of someone who is incredibly disappointed.

For me the T.V show now is nothing more than a tolerable accompanying piece, but the books will be the real Game of Thrones for me. Everything is more rich, more detailed, and better layed out.

GRRM doesn't keep things going because the T.V crowd just love Arya and the Hound, wasted trips to crastors keep because the audience needs 'action' or will fall asleep, doesn't have to follow this ridiculous 'wait till episode 9 for big battles policy' or play about with constant meeting chances between Starks and he can take as many pages as he likes to set thinks up and then follow them through to their completion.

For such a pivotal moment I think this one has to go down as a complete f*ck up by the T.V producers, directors etc.

However, well done Pedro Pascal, you were phenomenal!!! Its just a shame the converting of the source material didn't give you as much to work with as it should have, but fuck me did you nail it anyway! Pedro is now officially who I will be picturing Oberyn as during my re-reads of the series.

Overall though I am completely disappointed by tonights weak effort, not just with the fight itself, but with the decisions made about what stories to include and advance all with it. It was poorly paced, poorly done ... do you guys get that I didn't like it by now :) ?

Totally agree. Especially about the Darth Maul spear twirling. Same exact reaction I had. Honestly, in an episode devoted to filler,they reeeeallllly could have spent an extra 3 minutes building tension and showing tactics in a fight that pitted two of Westeros's biggest badasses against one another. OK so they ditched the Viper's shield, I figured they were going to do that because the viewers with a.d.d. wouldn't like it. But the subtle aspects of OM's approach to beating the Mountain were completely cast aside in favor of cheap theatrics. It looked sort of cool, I s'pose, but took away from any cerebral approach the Viper might have had.

Par for the course tho, sadly.

[D-A-C]

I was sorely disappointed in the fight choreography - it should have been longer and given us a sense of the progression of the duel. The producers succumbed to flashy cuts, overhead shots (due to the double), lots of corny twirls etc. Cuts are fine if they are used to cut in quickly to a significant bit of movement, but this didn't happen. We didn't get to see the Mountain being worn down, didn't even get to see that he really should have been too close to death to do anything. Someone said they saw a squire putting something on Oberyn's spear, but I didn't catch that and I wonder how many did. We really should know there was poison on the spear.

The long scene between Jamie and Tyrion was not that elucidating and should have been cut to give more time to the fight and the build up to it. All in all, a disappointing end of the episode. Hope the battle at the Wall next week is much, much better.

Yes there is someone wiping down his spear.

But that actually had the opposite effect for me. It TOOK AWAY from the fact that there was poison on the spear, and I am not sure those unfamaliar with the books will realise that was happening.

Besides, who the hell entrusts a squire coat your weapon with a poison that is beyond awful (Tywin's possible poison aside lol) in a fight of such importance for the character, it's his vengence for his sister afterall. I think the show de-emphasised this guy was a master of poisons, and the fight scene did nothing to help explain that.

Even the hits with spear on The Moutain, were brutal and seemed more piercing, not cuts, scratches and scrapes designed to inflict poison on the opponent.

At least thats my interpretation.