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Ran

[Book Spoilers] The Duel

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One small detail is that the new Mountain can't speak English very well and they might have to keep what he says to a minimum (not that he said much in the books :P ). Also, I expect that most hardcore fans won't like it, cause they will get hyped and expect too much and will be disappointed anyway. It will definitely be a scene to remember though; here's hoping it will last more than 5 minutes at least :)


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I think there've been some great examples of masterful choreography so far in the show. Short as they were, Hound v Beric and Jon v Quorin spring to mind. Even that Jorah/Grey Worm/Daario fight was well choreographed.

This, in addition to the fact that D&D both love Oberyn and know how much we all love Oberyn, make me confident that they will do the fight justice.

Based on promos, it's already much different than I envisioned years ago while reading ASOS. So if they change details here and there, I'll be neither surprised nor upset. But what I think they have to include is:

-you raped her, you killed her, you murdered her children (repeat)

-Mountain correcting the order or correcting how he killed Elia just before he shows Oberyn firsthand <- it's practically a written-for-tv-scene!

-Tyrion vomiting

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I'd add

-Viserys' "Golden Crown"

-Birth of the Dragons

-Mutiny at Craster's

-Hound vs Beric duel

-Ned vs Jaime

-Jaime's bathhouse speech

-Theon executing Rodrik

-Robb executing Karstark

-Bran getting tossed out the window

-Arrival of the Walkers/Wights at the Fist (even though we didn't get the subsequent battle)

-Wildling climb up the Wall

The only "big" scenes they haven't quite nailed (although I do like elements of them) are:

-House of the Undying (the imagery is masterful but they could have done even more if they weren't planning on including the book prophecies)

-Bear Pit (limited by the choice of working with a real bear)

-Jaime vs Brienne duel (good but could have been better)

-Ramsay's betrayal of Northmen and Theon/Ironborn and sacking of Winterfell (weakened severely by choice not to have Ramsay cast at that point in the story)

-Jon's fight with Halfhand (truncated and not set up adequately beforehand)

Regardless, it's a great batting average and as I said, even when they don't completely stick the landing, there are still things to admire about the scenes.

I did like bear pit but mostly thanks to Locke's hilarious lines and Gwen/Nikolaj acting. It should have been longer. I do think they butchered Jon Arryn/Only Cat thing. Still good scenes but such a far, far cry from the greatness in the book.

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I did like bear pit but mostly thanks to Locke's hilarious lines

"The fuck ya doing te my bear ?" ... Sorry, had to.

Regarding the helmets, it seems unlikely to me that Oberyn will pull it off Gregor's head. I think the Mountain will take it off cause the Viper moves to quickly and he has to keep him in sight.

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I quite liked the moon door- the reason it was so good in the books, at least for me, was because it was a moment we weren't expecting due to the ridiculous amount of turns that had taken place over the last few pages. Lysa being pushed out was therefore quite a big shock for me, and made it extremely memorably. Seen without that, I think the show version was extremely well done.



The one big scene I didn't particularly like was the fight between Jon and Qhorin Halfhand. I thought it started quite abruptly, and the motivations were extremely unclear.


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The one big scene I didn't particularly like was the fight between Jon and Qhorin Halfhand. I thought it started quite abruptly, and the motivations were extremely unclear.

The fact that we lost their whole flight from the Wildlings was so depressing. Some of the best dialogue in the books! Such a shame.

OT, I think the show's gotten more right than "wrong", so I think the fight will be good. Hoping for epic, but as long as we get some Oberyn/Mountain dialogue and Tyrion barf, I'll call it a win.

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The fact that we lost their whole flight from the Wildlings was so depressing. Some of the best dialogue in the books! Such a shame.

And some of the most vivid descriptions. Their ride through glaciers, cliffs, deep dark forests and mountains is really beautifuly written.

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The problem will be that non readers don't know who Elia is. My husband has stopped watching the show as he's sick of me having to keep filling in the blanks for him so he can understand the characters.

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The problem will be that non readers don't know who Elia is. My husband has stopped watching the show as he's sick of me having to keep filling in the blanks for him so he can understand the characters.

I think she' been mentioned enough times. If there are some who don't pay attention, it's their problem.

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The problem will be that non readers don't know who Elia is. My husband has stopped watching the show as he's sick of me having to keep filling in the blanks for him so he can understand the characters.

Anyone who shows the minimum of focus while watching the show should be able to know who Elia is.

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I think she' been mentioned enough times. If they are some who don't pay attention, it's their problem.

Exactly. I'm so sick of the show actually trying to cater to those people. They just assume the audience don't pay attention and that non book readers are dumb (this whole 'your sister' thing was borderline insulting).

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I think the show has set up Elia just fine. Oberyn has mentioned her three times in explicit conversations this season (first meeting with Tyrion, w/Cersei and Tywin at PW, in Tyrion's cell in E7).



It's not like the books gave Elia any kind of significant backstory either.



I'd argue that we've got a better sense of what happened to Elia than what the Mountain's deal is.


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As I've said before , I really hope to see mountain die at the end , or at least drop down after rising up again . You know , he smashes Oberyn's head and then drops down again in severe agony , just screaming .(I fancy an ending with a mixture of Ellaria's crying and Mountain's agony)

It's confirmed that we'll get a pretty brutal death in this season(one of the staff had said it before , don't remember who . Actually he had said that it was so violent that they had to cut some of it off!) . Well , who else can have a worse death than our beloved prince ?
P.S : God , just imagining that moment . I'll break my record of not crying in years :(

My only concern is the possibility of The Mountain not being able to deliver all those feelings(not that he has any!) he had in books during the duel .

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Some of my favorite quotes are from the trial by combat.



"You're going to fight that?" - Ellaria



"I'm going to kill that." - Oberyn



It looks like that will be in there from the promo.



I'm hoping they keep most of the dialogue from the fight, and especially the part where Oberyn tells Gregor he will chase him through all seven hells if he dies before saying Elia's name. That was so badass and I'm sure Pedro would do it justice.


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BTW all, Pedro Pascal has an AMA going on reddit for anyone interested. So far I've read a few duel-related answers, obviously without spoilers in them. Might be of interest to this thread.

OMG!!! A million thanks, I'm reading it now.

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My favourite detail from Pedro Pascal's AMA was that he based Oberyn's accent off of his own dad's. THAT is being a good son.

I liked that and YOU SIR, look like Oberyn Martell. I'm not done reading yet, but ITA, loved the dad thing and all the Chilean love, and NO SPOILERS, LOL

I still can't believe that he not only filmed the Tyrion cell scene on his first day, but the duel as well. That second one surprised me, I'd already heard the cell story. Love the admission of being clumsy sometimes. I'm still in awe how much this guy has made me love Oberyn even more.

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They have alreay messed up a part of the fight.



To me one of the most brutal parts is that, after Obery has shouted "You raped her, you murdered her. You killed her children" numerous times Gregor reveals that he killed the children first, possibly with Elia watching, and then raped her, with her children's blood still on his hands. That is a pretty horrifying thought.



In the shows Oberyn seems to already know that the children were killed first as he tells Tyrion that he killed Elia with their blood on his hands.


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I don't know why Oberyn told Tyrion that the Mountain cut Elia in half. That wasn't in the books and it's just stupid to be honest. I really doubt he brought his greatsword with him when he scaled Maegor's Tower just to kill a defenseless woman and her children. Even if he did, I wonder how that went...



"Here, stand up, Princess. I just raped you and now I have to kill you. By chopping you in half. Step outside of the bedroom, over there in that open space so I can get a clear swing."



No, he was lying on top of her when he murdered her and when he was finished raping her, he just picked up his heavy mailed glove and dropped it down on her face. Because it was that easy for him. Gregor Clegane doesn't need a sword to completely obliterate someone. And the irony is that Gregor kills Oberyn the exact same way. He emasculates him by entering a missionary position and getting right in his face, "close enough to kiss." Then he delivers those disturbing last lines.




“Elia of Dorne,” they all heard Ser Gregor say, when they were close enough to kiss. His deep voice boomed within the helm. “I killed her screaming whelp.” He thrust his free hand into Oberyn’s unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. “Then I raped her.” Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman’s mouth, making splinters of his teeth. “Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this.” As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air. There was a sickening crunch.




It's a revelation. The ultimate final taunt. No one knew quite how gruesome Elia's death was but the Mountain bellows it loud enough for everyone to hear. Then he demonstrates the same savagery on Oberyn as testament. If they cut Oberyn in half, I will be upset. But the fact Lena Headey has her thumbs over Pedro Pascal's eyes in that photoshoot at least shows that the actors are somewhat aware of how he dies in the books. Which tells me that's probably how he will die in the series. Those photos were most likely taken after season four was already filmed. It won't be exactly like his death in the books and that's alright. I had a hard time imagining Gregor beating Oberyn's face in with one hand while the other hand's fingers were gouging out his eyes anyway.



These are the things I want:


  • Gregor's last words to Oberyn - especially "LIKE THIS"
  • Oberyn dying the same way Elia died
  • The use of some sort of special effects on Oberyn's head/face (it has to be absolutely brütal)

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Benioff and Weiss have stated that the duel is one of the best sequences that they have ever done, and I trust them completely. I absolutely believe that they will do it justice and it will quickly become one of the most iconic moments in the history of the series for book readers and Unsullied viewers alike.



That's not to say that the scene will be 100% faithful to the books. While Oberyn will obviously taunt the Mountain and demand that he say Elia's name, I expect that they will be cutting down the number of times that he actually says "You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children." I believe that he says it at least NINE times in the book, which is fine on the page but would be a little excessive on screen. Even before Oberyn volunteered to be Tyrion's champion, many, many people were already making Inigo Montoya comparisons and jokes. I expect that the producers are aware that if they go overboard with using that line, the scene runs the risk of turning into a parody. Benioff and Weiss aren't going to compromise the integrity of the scene, but fair or not, everyone recognizes that The Princess Bride basically has a cultural monopoly on revenge duels/repetitive monologues with "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." If I know the Internet at all, then within 24 hours there are already going to be 10,000 YouTube videos and gifs featuring Oberyn and the Mountain intercut with Inigo and Count Rugen. That's not a guess - that's an inevitability. The writers could be willing to steer into that skid, but I expect that they'll try to soften the comparison - at least somewhat.



I can already anticipate the purist outrage if this happens, but whatever. As long as he says it two or three times, I'm good.



Regardless, I think that the scene will make all but the most rabid book fans quite happy. Ellaria saying "You are going to fight that?" in the trailer basically confirms that we'll be getting at least a variation of Oberyn responding with "I am going to kill that.", which is a nice assurance. There are a few other touches that I hope make it into the show, one of which is the Mountain maiming and killing some unfortunate spectator who gets too close. However, the way that the arena is set up in the show - with the spectators on a elevated platform above the combatants- might preclude that. I'd also like Oberyn to yell "EEEEEEEELLLLLLIIIIIIIIAAAAA" when he deals the Mountain his mortal wound, Cersei to scream in anger when the Mountain falls, and for Oberyn to shoot Tywin and Cersei some taunting looks in the aftermath, while Tyrion quips "I'm feeling more innocent by the moment."



But the only line that I'm truly crossing my fingers for is the one that Oberyn delivers when he believes that he has the Mountain at his mercy. "If you die before you say her name, ser, I will hunt you through all seven hells". Chills, especially when we know what happens next.



The part of the duel that I have the clearest mental image of, however, is the end, which will double as the end of the episode. I've pretty much mapped out my ideal version of that scene, shot for shot, far too many times. ;)



Clegane brutally delivers the finishing blow to Oberyn - whether by smashing his head in, cutting him in half, or some combination of the two. Immediately following that scene we get two reaction shots in quick succession: Ellaria screams in despair and horror, and Tyrion falls to his knees and vomits. Then, interspersed with a few more shots of Oberyn's ruined body, we get a few stunned reaction shots from the people watching - among them Tywin, Cersei, and Jaime. Everyone is too stunned to speak. With the exception of Ellaria's heartbroken cries, the arena is completely and utterly silent.



Then Tyrion starts to laugh - softly at first, then louder and louder until he's basically cackling with hysteria. Those around him stare at him uneasily, convinced that he's lost his mind - which he basically has. His laughter mingles with Ellaria's sobs for several uncomfortable seconds before Tywin motions for the guards to take Tyrion away. Tyrion doesn't resist at all as he's half-marched, half-dragged out of the arena, still laughing uncontrollably. The camera lifts away from the scene into an aerial perspective, revealing the full extent of the carnage in the arena: Oberyn and Gregor Clegane lying next to one another in a slowly expanding pool of their shared blood. A tragedy and mockery of justice in one unforgettable image.



Ellaria's cries and Tyrion's despairing laughter continue to play over this shot until the screen cuts to black. The credits are accompanied by a suitably mournful song, or better yet, total silence.


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But the only line that I'm truly crossing my fingers for is the one that Oberyn delivers when he believes that he has the Mountain at his mercy.

"If you die before you say her name, ser, I will hunt you through all seven hells". Chills, especially when we know what happens next.

:bowdown:

Your ending to the episode is fantastic!

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