[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[The Mountain That Posts]

It's intriguing to me that after reading this whole thread, 99% of the complaints have to deal with:

1. The pre-battle buildup
2. The battle itself
3. Oberyn's death

I only saw one comment which addressed what disappointed me, the point the episode ended at. I get that that's where it ended in the books too, but I would've liked to have seen Tyrion being dragged away and maybe more reactions out of characters(perhaps the show could pull a music-only montage as if it were Lost or something. :P )

I don't know, ending the episode with Tyrion wide mouthed just seems like they're intentionally skipping what would naturally come after, as a way to avoid writing it. Eh.

Hell, in that regard, I actually think the beetle speech(which was EASILY the best part of the episode for me personally) would've worked better AFTER the fight, rather than before it.

[MarieAntoinette]

I don't get it. People complain that head crushing was not realistic, I get that, but on the other hand a man getting his eyes gouged out has to die in total noble silence. The screams helped to make the death scene more horrifying and realistic in my opinion.

[Konradsmith]

^Yeah, a lot of people on reddit, imdb, PTV etc. have said that the scream is what sold the horror of the moment for them.

As for complaints about how they shot it, we knew from early on that they were doing a lot more crane work this season and doing a lot more multi-camera set ups with new the Arri digital cameras they got their hands on. So of course they're going to utilize all of that in this scene. Most of the show's previous sword fights have also featured a lot of cuts, sometimes cutting every time the swords lock or to get a better look at the space they're in. Okay, so some people like it all to be wider and to see all of the action in the frame at all times, but we can't say it was done badly overall because some of us would have done it differently.

[The Mountain That Posts]

The screams are easily the best part of the whole situation.

If only Nikolaj had this to take hints from when he lost his hand, and that they didn't ruin the moment with jarring pop punk one second later.

[Konradsmith]

^In fairness it wasn't pop punk it was kindof pub rock inflected punk. And D and D and GrrM all danced around listening to it after it was recorded so that makes it worthwhile IMO.

As for the screams, Pedro's were great but Indira Varma's were top notch. And the movement of her hands over her face was perfect with her fingers fluttering, it looked involuntary. She sold that moment. If you look at how Unsullied responded to it be it on internet comments or reaction videos or just through talking to them, they feel like we did reading the chapter. Which is the point, I thought.

[LordStoneheart]

Oberyn may have had great anger delivery, the Mountain may have pulled off his cruelty in the last moments, and Stuntman may have great wushu moves, but in the end it was Ellaria's scream that stole the show for me...

[Konradsmith]

^This. I demand that Indira Varma be given some shit to do in episode 410 and in season five. She's a great actress and she's Niobe.

[Adhara]

Indira was so lovely, even in her abject horror.

I only know this, by watching a second time.

The first go round, my fingers were busy protecting my eyes.

The eyes won, but the ears also blacked out.

Fun little scene.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

I don't get it. People complain that head crushing was not realistic, I get that, but on the other hand a man getting his eyes gouged out has to die in total noble silence. The screams helped to make the death scene more horrifying and realistic in my opinion.

Yeah. There is no cool way to get eyes gouged out and your skull crushed.

[Alia of the knife]

Two problems I had with the duel:

1) Oberyn's scream at the end. Understandable given the eye gouging thing, but he deserved better than that. He didn't get his vengeance (or ,forgive the pun, he didn't live to see his vengeance), but give the guy the gosh darn courtesy to not go out screaming like a little bitch. And now I'm left with that as my lasting memory of Oberyn. Thanks a lot HBO!! Assholes...

2) With all the agility and reflexes of a ninja, you mean to tell me Oberyn gets knocked on his back and doesn't have the quicks to roll away from his opponent? Don't they teach you that the first day of martial arts? And don't get me started about the Mountain rolling over and grabbing him with a spear in his chest...let me repeat...HE HAD A SPEAR IN HIS CHEST!! I understand the "suspension of disbelief" that goes with watching tv and film but this is asking a whole hell of a lot from me.

AND HOW DO YOU KNOCK SOMEONE'S TEETH OUT WHILE LYING ON YOUR BACK???? You can't possibly cock your arm back far enough to get the power you need to do such a thing.

Really? Come on Man...

Edited to add: I guess that's three problems I had with the duel. LOL!!

I have two words, (well kind of):

Jason X

:)

[gvewolf243]

I'm pretty sure Oberyn was on top through the whole thing, in the books. Correct me if I'm wrong, somebody. It's been a while since I read the chapter.

Prince Oberyn moved closer. "Say the name!" He put a foot on the Mountain's chest and raised the greatsword with both hands. Whether he intended to hack off Gregor's head or shove the point through his eyeslit was something Tyrion would never know.

Clegane's hand shot up and grabbed the Dornishman behind the knee. The Red Viper brought down the greatsword in a wild slash, but he was off-balance, and the edge did no more than put another dent in the Mountain's vambrace. Then the sword was forgotten as Gregor's hand tightened and twisted, yanking the Dornishman down on top of him. They wrestled in the dust and blood, the broken spear wobbling back and forth. Tyrion saw with horror that the Mountain had wrapped one huge arm around the prince, drawing him tight against his chest, like a lover...

... He thrust his free hand into Oberyn's unprotected face, pushing steel fingers into his eyes. "Then I raped her." Clegane slammed his fist into the Dornishman's mouth, making splinters of his teeth. "Then I smashed her fucking head in. Like this." As he drew back his huge fist, the blood on his gauntlet seemed to smoke in the cold dawn air. There was a sickening crunch.

[JagLover]

Personally I thought the Duel was well executed and acted from start to finish.

Many of people's criticism of the scene could only be addressed by allocating more time to the duel and I think they gave it enough time to establish what was going on.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maycie/heres-how-sundays-game-of-thrones-episode-should-have-actual?s=mobile

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I have found a much better version of the Mountain vs. Oberyn online :D The guy who made this is brilliant, though the cuts are still annoying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwPvGezWrVY

PS after this fight, you can really see where the choreographers got their inspiration from.

why does Oberyn's Lightsaber change colors?

edit-nvm, he gave into the dark side. Guess hate really does lead to suffering.

[DaveyJoe]

^Yeah, a lot of people on reddit, imdb, PTV etc. have said that the scream is what sold the horror of the moment for them.

As for complaints about how they shot it, we knew from early on that they were doing a lot more crane work this season and doing a lot more multi-camera set ups with new the Arri digital cameras they got their hands on. So of course they're going to utilize all of that in this scene. Most of the show's previous sword fights have also featured a lot of cuts, sometimes cutting every time the swords lock or to get a better look at the space they're in. Okay, so some people like it all to be wider and to see all of the action in the frame at all times, but we can't say it was done badly overall because some of us would have done it differently.

:agree: In typical fashion, people wanted something very specific and when the show goes in a different direction, they dismiss it as bad editing, bad directing, etc. as if it's an objective fact. There is nothing wrong with the editing in this scene. I like how the multiple angles didn't just emphasize Oberyn, but the spectacle of the entire scene, often showing the audience watching. The audience reactions reflected our own as the tone of the fight shifted drastically.

[Jo cool]

I don't know, ending the episode with Tyrion wide mouthed just seems like they're intentionally skipping what would naturally come after, as a way to avoid writing it. Eh.

Interesting. I thought ending the episode with Tyrion wide mouthed was a great idea. The viewers are left in Tyrion's shoes, disoriented, dismayed, scared (and staring blankly at the credits). It's a powerful ending imo.

[Peter George Stewart]

Interesting. I thought ending the episode with Tyrion wide mouthed was a great idea. The viewers are left in Tyrion's shoes, disoriented, dismayed, scared (and staring blankly at the credits). It's a powerful ending imo.

Absolutely, both the screams and Tyrion's expression are obviously intended to mirror the likely (and intended) audience reaction.

[Veltigar]

I'd probably go with lean over scrawny, but yeah :)

Bjornsson is really thick, but he must carry it well because you don't really notice. It's hard to believe he's 5 inches shorter yet almost 100 lbs heavier than Conan Stevens.

Still strange that Conan looks a hell of a lot scarier than Teddybear Bjornsson :)

Thats perfect.

And you and I both know that Bjornsson will likely have a future on "Vikings." :)

He would make a good minor antagonist :) Though, I don't think he's really good enough as an actor to be anything else ;)

1) Oberyn's scream at the end. Understandable given the eye gouging thing, but he deserved better than that. He didn't get his vengeance (or ,forgive the pun, he didn't live to see his vengeance), but give the guy the gosh darn courtesy to not go out screaming like a little bitch. And now I'm left with that as my lasting memory of Oberyn. Thanks a lot HBO!! Assholes...

I have made my disappointment of this fight quite clear in this thread, but here I have to disagree. The scream was very great addition. If I could redo the whole fight, I'd still keep that in.

Yep, from the prequels containing the least emotionally involving fights in movie history...

True, but the Darth Maul fight was nicely staged at the very least (IIRC, it's been a couple of years since I last saw it).

Yes, wushu became a big part of what they envisioned lightsaber combat as involving during the prequels. In part because Ray Park (Maul) was a wushu expert and was capable of all those moves. So when he somersaults and the like, that's him actually doing it, so the camera stays close in...

Not-so-random fact: the average shot length of the "Duel of the Fates" is 2.2 seconds (from its start to the point where Maul and Qui-gon are separated by the force field), and features a lot of medium long shots featuring the full bodies of the performers.

Alas, they didn't follow that approach here :(

[Half Man]

I don't get it. People complain that head crushing was not realistic, I get that, but on the other hand a man getting his eyes gouged out has to die in total noble silence. The screams helped to make the death scene more horrifying and realistic in my opinion.

People who think that it wasn't realistic obviously haven't read the books and don't understand how strong the Mountain really is. The fight was perfect for me and it was my favorite part in the books.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

anyone seen the Denial/Alternate ending of the fight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8oOi6JOXEQ