[Book Spoilers] The Duel

[Kenyatta]

Am I the only one who is totally disturbed by the idea that any male character that cries in moments of deep sadness or screams in moments of sheer agony is suddenly considered "a little bitch"? Guys, it's called being human.

I agree, the screaming sold it for me. I did like Nikolaj's scene though. With an injury like that (quick and sudden instead of drawn out like Oberyn's eye gorging) there's usually a delay in response. It's that moment where you have not yet quite realized what just happened, but then it finally hits you and that's when the pain comes.

I didn't say Oberyn was a "little bitch", I said he screamed like one. And I also said that it was understandable given the fact that he was getting his eyes gouged out. Now if I would have said "I don't care what happens, you don't scream not matter what because that's what little bitches do", then your argument would have some merit. I just felt he deserved better than that. And now, as recompense, I demand that Tywin scream like a little bitch too. We Oberyn fans are owed a debt, and we better have it paid dammit.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

I didn't say Oberyn was a "little bitch", I said he screamed like one. And I also said that it was understandable given the fact that he was getting his eyes gouged out. Now if I would have said "I don't care what happens, you don't scream not matter what because that's what little bitches do", then your argument would have some merit. I just felt he deserved better than that. And now, as recompense, I demand that Tywin scream like a little bitch too. We Oberyn fans are owed a debt, and we better have it paid dammit.

Are you familiar with the phrase 'distinction without a difference'?

[Ravi Seaworth]

It was horrifying and that was shown by the reaction of many unsullied. I know many of you may not like this approach, but it is that which they decided to adopt, and to be frank it's not that different from the books. Maybe, a little more buildup could have improved the scene, but everything else was not far off from what I expected. Maybe, that's because I don't create unrealistic expectations for the show.

[Boggsy Cyvasse]

I didn't say Oberyn was a "little bitch", I said he screamed like one. And I also said that it was understandable given the fact that he was getting his eyes gouged out. Now if I would have said "I don't care what happens, you don't scream not matter what because that's what little bitches do", then your argument would have some merit. I just felt he deserved better than that. And now, as recompense, I demand that Tywin scream like a little bitch too. We Oberyn fans are owed a debt, and we better have it paid dammit.

Well, you know what they say about Lannisters and debts... but I doubt we'll get that lovely sounding banshee wail from Charles Dance.

Just imagine that though? As the shaft buries itself in Tywin's gut (no homo, for Shae,"ho-no-mo") you hear the wonderful harmony of Tywin shrieking like a 7 year old girl while simultaneously loosing a weeks worth of built up sphincter-blocker.

[Jo cool]

For starters, Opeth is a great band.

I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that ending ending episodes with character reaction shots has happened literally every season. Starting with episode 3 of season one, onwards we're privy to the vast majority of episodes ending with the camera on their face. ESPECIALLY in recent times, in reactions to surprises. Jaime's episode ends with his scream and his face, Red Wedding ends with Cat's face, the episode before this ended with Tyrion and Oberyn's faces, etc.

Every now and then it works, but it's turned into a cheap way to end scenes two seconds after the twist happens - rather than giving us complete scenes.

Ok, I see it more as a trademark (although sometimes unoriginal and/or unsuccessful, I concur) than a way to cop out. Anyway I'm sorry it bothered you, and yeah ... Opeth ... :cheers:

[LordStoneheart]

IMO, their best ending so far has been the march of the Unsullied from Astapor. Not exactly what this last episode should end like, but it's different than just reaction shots

[Glasgowchivas]

Have we had this already?

http://mccomseycomix.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/the-red-viper-vs-the-mountain-that-rides-a-12-page-comic/

[Veltigar]

Have we had this already?

http://mccomseycomix.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/the-red-viper-vs-the-mountain-that-rides-a-12-page-comic/

Wasn't their a black and white version of that comic? I liked that better IIRC

[R'hllor the Fabulous]

A lot of people enjoyed the duel, specially TV-only viewers. Agreed, but I think the reason behind it is that the source material is just extremely good and that is what shows. From an adaptation perspective, I think it was disappointing. I'll try to explain why. I'm going to nitpick. Hell yeah.

The buildup

The whole episode has no King's Landing stuff in it until the end. And then when you finally think the duel is coming, you get 10 minutes of Orson Lannister crushing beetles. Just who thought this was a good idea. I don't care if it has some philosophical meaning, all the audience can think about is just get on with it already. Just sticks out like a sore thumb. The novels were already so good in this regard. You have these awesome Tyrion-Oberyn conversations which were all cut so that Oberyn could get a dumb line 'today is not the day I die'- Jojen's line, in a completely wrong context. And there is so much sub text in Oberyn's conversations , especially if you accept the Tywin poisoning theories 'Your father may not live forever', Cersei would support Myrcella's crowning, etc. The whole background is just cut. Bad, bad bad.

The equipment

Now I understand that you can't have actors wear helmets in film, they have to show their faces. OK, FINE.. as long as you don't DRAW attention to that fact in the freaking script. Now in real life, fighting without helmet would be suicide - it is the most important part of the armor. Sometimes they would fight without a visor just to get a better view, but they would not be bareheaded. Gregors greatsword striking your unprotected top or back of the head would split your skull, with a helm, you could get knocked back and maybe have a concussion but that is a much better deal. In fact in the novels, Oberyn does wear a halfhelm.

Gregor's case is even worse. He has a completely un historical type of helmet which just falls off. Like, what? I once witnessed a dangerous motorcycle accident at 40 kmph. The dude survived with his helmet still on- because that's the freaking point. A helm that just falls off when you need it the most is just self defeating and stupid.

A final comment about the spear. In most sparring situations/videos you'll see people using 6' poles because that's the most you can really fit into a car. A more realistic size would be 8' - the same as in the novels. In the show, the spear he uses is extremely short, like 5' or so max, so the entire point of having a longer reach is completely missed.

Fight choreography

What Martin describes in the novels is actually pretty realistic fight choreography . You can see a video example here of what it should have been like. Now I didn't expect the show to be anywhere as accurate or realistic. But what we did get was just really really bad.

The thing with stage combat is: you are trying to show a combat while being as safe as possible - which is exactly the opposite of what you would be trying to do in real combat, ie, to hurt your opponent. The trick is to do it in as realistic a manner while still looking good. This is difficult. Wu shu on the other hand is mainly for entertainment and acrobatic purposes. So when you use that in a fight supposedly to be to the death, it just ends up looking absurd.

is perhaps the best example of this- the linked video explains clearly why this 'fight' is rubbish. So when you have Oberyn just spinning around and twirling and doing this dance steps, its just hard to take him seriously. If I were in a duel to the death, I would probably learn a martial art that is focused towards, you know, killing people. Not this wu shu or star wars rubbish ( that would instantly get you killed in real life ).

Gregor is even more of a disappointment . I'm sorry, but this dude can't act. He just looks a little fat and round in his armor and totally not menacing in the slightest. Also, is he drunk or something. He just swings it around awkwardly with one hand as if he has no idea what he is doing.

The fight

Now, the fight is already problematic because Gregor is drunk and Oberyn is learning the ballet. But it is also too short and includes none of the cool stuff actually there in the novels that could distract you from the stupid fight choreography. Like the part where Gregor kills the unfortunate bystander, and the Sun comes out and Gregor puts the sun at his back, but Oberyn uses his shield to shine it in his face. Tyrion saying 'I am feeling more innocent every moment'. You know, the cool stuff that's there in the novels. They cut it out for what, Orson Lannister smashing beetles and burping whores and grey worm filler. Yeah..

The issues with the editing and camera angles have already been covered at length in other posts. I don't know much about this so all I'll say is that i just found it really bad, and awkward.

The end

I don't know if is possible to crush a man's skull with bare hands. Certainly it looked very goofy to me. When there was no need for it. They could have had him punch the face with his armored gauntlets, you know, like the novels.

In conclusion I just found it a disappointing end to a disappointing epsiode.

Great post, more or less my exact thoughts.

I was looking forward to this scene, I loved Pedro Pascal as Oberyn, minus the brothel scenes, but those aren't his fault. But they just had to give him Legolas syndrome.

And then there's the Mountain, who seemed to have the opposite problem, he didn't even know how to hold his damn sword. I am not exaggerating when I say that Gregor's choreography was some of the worst I've ever seen.

Such a shame, this could have been a fight which could have ended up on people's "Favourite movie fights" lists for years to come. But they messed up.

[Glasgowchivas]

Wasn't their a black and white version of that comic? I liked that better IIRC

Last year. The artist redrew some panels and coloured it.

[Veltigar]

Last year. The artist redrew some panels and coloured it.

Ah, I see. The guy who made it is very good, I'd think I'd love to see his take on ASOIAF (better than those bad graphic novels they have now). Although for some reason I think his style works better in black and white for this :)

[westerosifitness]

OMG guys. One chance. Once chance they had at this scene and THEY BLEW IT!!

Everyone knows, that in the book, Oberyn had a BUCKLER that he used to his significant advantage against Ser Gregor!

That was key to the Dornish fighting style and now they've ruined the one chance they had to show this important point about the Dornish character.

I mean, without the shield, how was he going to reflect the sun into the Mountain's eyes, giving him time to take a shot at the joints in his armor?

Oh, just CUT IT OUT!

I'm getting tired of all the sloppy, poor writing of this season. First, the Hound doesn't have his helmet, then the moon door is in the wrong location, Lysa isn't fat, Roose doesn't get leeched ONCE in three seasons!!

All those I could have done with, but this whitewashing of Oberyn's character and fighting style was a travesty. I don't know HOW they are going to recover from this one.

Maybe they should try reading the books before they do their take in the show.

I'm gonna go play with my cats and get a fatass shake from McDonald's so I can get over this latest wreck of my childhood.

[Theon_the_original]

Little off topic but if the Red Viper did Kill Gregor by showing how he was a superior fighter and was not foolish enough to get cocky and get killed, would he have been considered the best warrior or where would you rate him. He appears very high on most list despite the outcome.

[Alia of the knife]

Great post, more or less my exact thoughts.

I was looking forward to this scene, I loved Pedro Pascal as Oberyn, minus the brothel scenes, but those aren't his fault. But they just had to give him Legolas syndrome.

And then there's the Mountain, who seemed to have the opposite problem, he didn't even know how to hold his damn sword. I am not exaggerating when I say that Gregor's choreography was some of the worst I've ever seen.

Such a shame, this could have been a fight which could have ended up on people's "Favourite movie fights" lists for years to come. But they messed up.

Agree with this as well as the posters analysis.

[Alia of the knife]

OMG guys. One chance. Once chance they had at this scene and THEY BLEW IT!!

Everyone knows, that in the book, Oberyn had a BUCKLER that he used to his significant advantage against Ser Gregor!

That was key to the Dornish fighting style and now they've ruined the one chance they had to show this important point about the Dornish character.

I mean, without the shield, how was he going to reflect the sun into the Mountain's eyes, giving him time to take a shot at the joints in his armor?

Oh, just CUT IT OUT!

I'm getting tired of all the sloppy, poor writing of this season. First, the Hound doesn't have his helmet, then the moon door is in the wrong location, Lysa isn't fat, Roose doesn't get leeched ONCE in three seasons!!

All those I could have done with, but this whitewashing of Oberyn's character and fighting style was a travesty. I don't know HOW they are going to recover from this one.

Maybe they should try reading the books before they do their take in the show.

I'm gonna go play with my cats and get a fatass shake from McDonald's so I can get over this latest wreck of my childhood.

Your going to need the Oreo flavor to get past this outrage. :)

[sj4iy]

OMG guys. One chance. Once chance they had at this scene and THEY BLEW IT!!

Everyone knows, that in the book, Oberyn had a BUCKLER that he used to his significant advantage against Ser Gregor!

That was key to the Dornish fighting style and now they've ruined the one chance they had to show this important point about the Dornish character.

I mean, without the shield, how was he going to reflect the sun into the Mountain's eyes, giving him time to take a shot at the joints in his armor?

Oh, just CUT IT OUT!

I'm getting tired of all the sloppy, poor writing of this season. First, the Hound doesn't have his helmet, then the moon door is in the wrong location, Lysa isn't fat, Roose doesn't get leeched ONCE in three seasons!!

All those I could have done with, but this whitewashing of Oberyn's character and fighting style was a travesty. I don't know HOW they are going to recover from this one.

Maybe they should try reading the books before they do their take in the show.

I'm gonna go play with my cats and get a fatass shake from McDonald's so I can get over this latest wreck of my childhood.

:lmao: :fencing:

[Ankou]

My Skyrim Oberyn clone is ruined without the buckler! RUINED!

[Greywolf2375]

ok - Guillen needs to decide which voice he is going to use. He goes uses 3-4 voices each episode and it's old.

I don't like the "Lysa killed herself" story, but there weren't any other options at that point since Marillion was already gone.

Sansa's turn to Darth Sansa seemed a little too quick - she's been picking up on the game, but that was very fast.

Hound/Arya - great laugh.

The duel. They did an alright job with it, the thing that stuck out for me though was that the way Oberyn beat him shows that Bronn or any skilled swordsman could have beaten him. There wasn't anything he did that specifically needed the spear to do it. I think the complaint that he did pull a WWE recovery is spot on. I do love Tyrions look of "just fucking kill him".

I am wondering still why Jaime was KGing and was a spectator.

The beetle story went on way too long...but watching those two play off of each other is amazing.

[WTFSalami]

OMG guys. One chance. Once chance they had at this scene and THEY BLEW IT!!

Everyone knows, that in the book, Oberyn had a BUCKLER that he used to his significant advantage against Ser Gregor!

That was key to the Dornish fighting style and now they've ruined the one chance they had to show this important point about the Dornish character.

I mean, without the shield, how was he going to reflect the sun into the Mountain's eyes, giving him time to take a shot at the joints in his armor?

Oh, just CUT IT OUT!

I'm getting tired of all the sloppy, poor writing of this season. First, the Hound doesn't have his helmet, then the moon door is in the wrong location, Lysa isn't fat, Roose doesn't get leeched ONCE in three seasons!!

All those I could have done with, but this whitewashing of Oberyn's character and fighting style was a travesty. I don't know HOW they are going to recover from this one.

Maybe they should try reading the books before they do their take in the show.

I'm gonna go play with my cats and get a fatass shake from McDonald's so I can get over this latest wreck of my childhood.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

WHITEWASHING! AGENCY! SUBTLETY! D+D EVIL DEMONS! HORRIBLE SHOW! LIFE-RUINING EXPERIENCE! WORST THING EVER! KILL ME NOW! I CAN'T USE MY REMOTE PROPERLY! MURDERERS MAKE ME WATCH THIS SHOW! IF I DIDN'T MENTION SUBTLETY THEN THAT AGAIN AS WELL!

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

I didn't say Oberyn was a "little bitch", I said he screamed like one.

I thought you were quoting me for a second, that was my exact response. Nice how we both explained ourselves and no one gave a shit. People hear only what they wanna hear...

Have we had this already?

http://mccomseycomix.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/the-red-viper-vs-the-mountain-that-rides-a-12-page-comic/

Yup. Love it.

Wasn't their a black and white version of that comic? I liked that better IIRC

Yes, I noticed that too. The artist changed it out with a colored version soon after I posted it the first time (around the same time the episode aired). I guess he was getting pretty hyped about the duel or he knew people were going to stumble across it more often than usual due to all the inevitable internet searches the following day. Which is exactly what happened (check the date all the recent comments were posted).

Just imagine that though? As the shaft buries itself in Tywin's gut (no homo, for Shae,"ho-no-mo")

:lol: