TheCrannogDweller Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 There was a sample (don't know if it was an authorized one or a leak) of the World of Ice and Fire book, and there was a Stark lineage. It was said it was not finished, but no, they don't have a Targ ancestor, at least not in the last 9 or 10 generations (which, methinks, rules out having a Targ ancestor at all). Yes, that preliminary family tree was making the rounds but even if it remains the same in the worldbook, it would still leave the question open. As Rhaenys above me said, the tree still leaves a few generations unaccounted for - though I think it's more like 100 years, not 80, since the tree starts with Cregan's father and Cregan has to be a contemporary of Aemon the Dragonknight, who was born somewhere in the 130s-140s. Edit: Sorry, the tree starts with Cregan's grandfather, but both his and his son's wives are unknown, so for the purposes of this discussion, the known Stark wives start with Cregan himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bori Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Two questions about Littlefinger: 1. Did we ever learn who was the merchant Littlefinger killed (or wanted to kill) using the Faceless Men? He was surprizingly well informed about the prizes of their services and I don't think it is a kind of "common knowledge". 2. What the heck Littlefinger wants with Robert's tapestries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Seed Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 If Varys had Daeny and her brother killed when they were in pentos and Young Griff is a Blackfrye as many think, would YG be the next in line for the IT by blood not conquest? If so, why wouldn't Varys just present him as who he is instead of Aegon. I know Blackfryes are bastards but I thought that they would inherit before some one outside of the bloodlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Second question - we all wonder about the tapestries.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 2. What the heck Littlefinger wants with Robert's tapestries? Threads: Littlefinger's Tapestries: What Gives? 20 posts 14 Oct 2013 LF Requests Robert's Tapestries? 20 posts 24 Nov 2012 The Mad Genius Of Petyr Baelish 20 posts 7 Jun 2011 Those Tapestries Littlefinger Asked For 20 posts 30 Jan 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Two questions about Littlefinger: 1. Did we ever learn who was the merchant Littlefinger killed (or wanted to kill) using the Faceless Men? He was surprizingly well informed about the prizes of their services and I don't think it is a kind of "common knowledge". 2. What the heck Littlefinger wants with Robert's tapestries? I think he was just giving an example, and it seems to me at least that he doesn't really understand their uuh...pricing structure. They demand whatever you value most, not just a shitload of money. Nobody knows about the tapestries, but there are threads where people discuss possibilities. If Varys had Daeny and her brother killed when they were in pentos and Young Griff is a Blackfrye as many think, would YG be the next in line for the IT by blood not conquest? If so, why wouldn't Varys just present him as who he is instead of Aegon. I know Blackfryes are bastards but I thought that they would inherit before some one outside of the bloodlines. Well a lot of people probably have negative opinions of the Blackfyres. Also if the Blackfyre theory is true, Young Griff is not even a Blackfyre. He'd be the son of Illyrio and a whore with some degree of Blackfyre blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 If Varys had Daeny and her brother killed when they were in pentos and Young Griff is a Blackfrye as many think, would YG be the next in line for the IT by blood not conquest? If so, why wouldn't Varys just present him as who he is instead of Aegon. I know Blackfryes are bastards but I thought that they would inherit before some one outside of the bloodlines. The Blackfyres are descended from Aegon IV's legitimized bastard - which should put them behind any descendants of his trueborn children. And those include not only Viserys and Dany, but also the Baratheon brothers (and their children) and even the current Martells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Yes, that preliminary family tree was making the rounds but even if it remains the same in the worldbook, it would still leave the question open. As Rhaenys above me said, the tree still leaves a few generations unaccounted for - though I think it's more like 100 years, not 80, since the tree starts with Cregan's father and Cregan has to be a contemporary of Aemon the Dragonknight, who was born somewhere in the 130s-140s. Edit: Sorry, the tree starts with Cregan's grandfather, but both his and his son's wives are unknown, so for the purposes of this discussion, the known Stark wives start with Cregan himself. Yeah, I was just going by those Starks who aren't listed on the tree at all. With Cregan probably being a child during the Dance, he would have been of the generation of Rhaenyra's sons, with Cregan's father of the generation of Rhaenyra, and Cregan's grandfather of the generation of Viserys I, whose brother was born in 81AC.. So roughly 80 AC. Very roughly. Two questions about Littlefinger: 1. Did we ever learn who was the merchant Littlefinger killed (or wanted to kill) using the Faceless Men? He was surprizingly well informed about the prizes of their services and I don't think it is a kind of "common knowledge". 2. What the heck Littlefinger wants with Robert's tapestries? Threads: Littlefinger's Tapestries: What Gives? 20 posts 14 Oct 2013 LF Requests Robert's Tapestries? 20 posts 24 Nov 2012 The Mad Genius Of Petyr Baelish 20 posts 7 Jun 2011 Those Tapestries Littlefinger Asked For 20 posts 30 Jan 2011 The tapestries from Darry are not the ones from Robert (which is what one of those threads suggests, as spotted in a very quick glance through those threads). Those tapestries at Darry had hung on the the walls until it became clear Robert was coming. They had been taken down very recently, and remained in the basements. There is no way Robert would have let Darry get away with keeping Targaryen stuff around. The tapestries might be LF showing Cersei he is still loyal to her (which we know isn't true). Asking her for a gift for his wedding.. but nothing too expensive or grand, because he's only a humble man of low birth - at least, that is the idea LF wants Cersei to get from this, I suspect. This way, Cersei has no reason to suspect LF is trying to usurp a spot in ruling, which, in reality, is what he is trying to do. If Varys had Daeny and her brother killed when they were in pentos and Young Griff is a Blackfrye as many think, would YG be the next in line for the IT by blood not conquest? If so, why wouldn't Varys just present him as who he is instead of Aegon. I know Blackfryes are bastards but I thought that they would inherit before some one outside of the bloodlines. No, probably not. The Blackfyres have died out in the male line, so if YG is a Blackfyre (and there are still many who think he's real, btw ;) ) he would descend from the female line. That isn't a problem, and it would most likely place him somewhere in the official line of inheritance, but Daeron and Daemon had a sister too, a trueborn sister, Daenerys, who's descendants are still alive today. I think as far as inheritance goes, her descendants would come before those of Daemon's daughters. Of course, all descendants of Rhaella Targaryen, born in later generations, would have an even better claim, which kind of got broken by usurping the throne and becoming a kingslayer, but as shown, only the maesters care about that. The rest of Westeros cares about the rights of conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bori Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Thanks all of you!I've never thought these tapestries evoked so much interest (although I should have known better...).Paraphrasing Stannis: Only GRRM could vex me so with a piece of textile. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Yeah, I was just going by those Starks who aren't listed on the tree at all. With Cregan probably being a child during the Dance, he would have been of the generation of Rhaenyra's sons, with Cregan's father of the generation of Rhaenyra, and Cregan's grandfather of the generation of Viserys I, whose brother was born in 81AC.. So roughly 80 AC. Very roughly. I'm curious, where do you get that Cregan is from Viserys' generation? He is obviously either older or at least of age with the Dragonknight - what makes you think that the former is the case? Edit: Come to think of it, why couldn't Cregan be younger than Aemon? Do we know when they fought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Two questions about Littlefinger: 1. Did we ever learn who was the merchant Littlefinger killed (or wanted to kill) using the Faceless Men? He was surprizingly well informed about the prizes of their services and I don't think it is a kind of "common knowledge". 2. What the heck Littlefinger wants with Robert's tapestries?Regarding #1 this is my best guess what was going on...http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89914-littlefinger-hired-a-faceless-man-to-kill-ned/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 How long did the comet remain in the sky? Days? Weeks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm curious, where do you get that Cregan is from Viserys' generation? He is obviously either older or at least of age with the Dragonknight - what makes you think that the former is the case? Edit: Come to think of it, why couldn't Cregan be younger than Aemon? Do we know when they fought? Cregan was Lord of Winterfell, but didn't join the fighting during the Dance, instead sending Manderly's and Roddy Dustin as commanders. Since the band of Northmen was called the "winter wolves", to me, and to several others, that has suggested that Cregan, though a lord, was too young to lead his own men into battle, and was thus a child during the Dance. With the generationgaps of 20 to 25 years a person, and with Cregan being a few years old at least during the Dance, his grandfather would have been born roughly around 80AC. It's not Cregan I placed in 80AC :p but his grandfather ;) The Dragonknight was a captive in Dorne until 161, so before then, is not an option. GRRM has also commented once on the fight between Aemon and Cregan, saying something like "Aemon was an example of chivalry". In that SSM (which at the moment I can't find with google), it was also suggested (by the person asking the question, IIRC) that Cregan was older than Aemon. Cregan cannot be younger than Aemon, because Cregan was already alive during the Dance, whereas Aemon was born in or between 139AC and 144AC. How long did the comet remain in the sky? Days? Weeks? Weeks. IIRC, it is mentioned in a Jon chapter once they have reached the Fist of the First Men, or are close to that location. The Comet had been visible since they left the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 RT - I didn't look at the threads, I confess, I just searched and linked. But when I read that LF wanted the tapestries, I wondered (as have lots of people) if there is some clue that we don't know about depicted in the scenes of the tapestries. On one hand, you know that GRRM plants ideas way ahead of events on occasion, but you also know he gives details that are just background stuff. To me, the question is, which one is the request for the tapestries going to turn out to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Cregan was Lord of Winterfell, but didn't join the fighting during the Dance, instead sending Manderly's and Roddy Dustin as commanders. Since the band of Northmen was called the "winter wolves", to me, and to several others, that has suggested that Cregan, though a lord, was too young to lead his own men into battle, and was thus a child during the Dance. With the generationgaps of 20 to 25 years a person, and with Cregan being a few years old at least during the Dance, his grandfather would have been born roughly around 80AC. It's not Cregan I placed in 80AC :P but his grandfather ;) Thanks. I had forgotten that he was mentioned in TPATQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 The Dragonknight was a captive in Dorne until 161, so before then, is not an option. GRRM has also commented once on the fight between Aemon and Cregan, saying something like "Aemon was an example of chivalry". In that SSM (which at the moment I can't find with google), it was also suggested (by the person asking the question, IIRC) that Cregan was older than Aemon. Not a SSM, but were you thinking of this? Nothing prevents Cregan Stark from being an old man when he fought Aemon... nor does anything prevent the Dragonknight from being, perhaps, somewhat exaggerative about an old man's ability; he was the very soul of courtesy, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Not a SSM, but were you thinking of this? Ah, yes, that's it.. :) RT - I didn't look at the threads, I confess, I just searched and linked. But when I read that LF wanted the tapestries, I wondered (as have lots of people) if there is some clue that we don't know about depicted in the scenes of the tapestries. On one hand, you know that GRRM plants ideas way ahead of events on occasion, but you also know he gives details that are just background stuff. To me, the question is, which one is the request for the tapestries going to turn out to be?Yeah, true. That is why I proposed that the tapestries themselves aren't anything special, but the meaning the request will have to Cersei is. I could be wrong.. GRRM is the only one who knows. I didn't just read them all either :P But I saw the Darry tapestries mentioned, and the suggestion that they are the same as the tapestries LF was getting from Cersei, and I felt I had to correct that. The other threads seems to have been talking about the actual hunting tapestries.. Though again, we can't be sure yet what they mean, though it is my small little pet theory that the request was made to make Cersei feel safe, to make her feel LF can be trusted, because she can make him happy by giving him small things, unlike, for example, Mace, who keeps wanting more things, like being Hand and such, which has lead to Cersei mistrusting him. LF can't have that (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Have any of you seen a thread comparing and contrasting Viserion's and Rhaegal's behavior, I mean in detail, not just Viserion was more docile and Rhaegal more vicious, but actually going through each reference to them in five books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripod18 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Are we ever given any insight into why Davos saved Storm's End during the Siege? It seems like there were so many risks (getting caught by the Redwynes, getting stuck in a besieged, starving castle for an unknown length of time, Stannis just taking his onions and executing him), and as good of a guy Davos is I can't imagine he just did it just to be nice. Davos' character is largely defined by 1) his loyalty to Stannis and 2)his general sense of honor. But during the Siege he didn't know Stannis and certainly hadn't sworn loyalty to him, and I feel like even the most honor-obsessed dude (much less a smuggler) wouldn't feel he had a duty to save a castle to which he had no connections at great personal risk. My only guess is that he was banking on Stannis rewarding him, thereby letting him give up his illicit and dangerous lifestyle, and take better care for his family. This just seems a little thin to me, and was wondering if anyone has any other insights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Are we ever given any insight into why Davos saved Storm's End during the Siege? It seems like there were so many risks (getting caught by the Redwynes, getting stuck in a besieged, starving castle for an unknown length of time, Stannis just taking his onions and executing him), and as good of a guy Davos is I can't imagine he just did it just to be nice. Davos' character is largely defined by 1) his loyalty to Stannis and 2)his general sense of honor. But during the Siege he didn't know Stannis and certainly hadn't sworn loyalty to him, and I feel like even the most honor-obsessed dude (much less a smuggler) wouldn't feel he had a duty to save a castle to which he had no connections at great personal risk. My only guess is that he was banking on Stannis rewarding him, thereby letting him give up his illicit and dangerous lifestyle, and take better care for his family. This just seems a little thin to me, and was wondering if anyone has any other insights. During Robert's rebellion, what brought a simple smuggler like Davos to take sides in the war by helping Stannis and the starving garrison at Storm's End? (George laughs) Because he had onions! And so he thought to himself: "Where can I sell these at the best price? If I take them to King's Landing they'll pay me the price of onions, but i I take them to people duing of hunger they'd certainly pay me better." http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.