SerArthurHeath Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Maybe to some people it does, but then read my defensive post above! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Doesn't "speculative fiction" have some negative connotations?Not really, there have even been Nobel prizes for some spec fic writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Okay, let's leave out all thaw magic and see what remains of the story.The Doom never happens and the Targaryens never conquer Westeros. The Iron Throne is never forged and we would have seven independent kingdoms.Most of the characters wouldn't even exist. We would have a totally different story.And second: like others said before. Magic does not equal fantasy. Even without all the magical elements, the story would still be fantasy, because it takes place in an alternate world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 By the way, I see the OP keep repeating the hypothetical of dropping fantastical elements from ASOIAF, refusing again and again to address the fact that the world itself is a fantastical element, but in the end there is no hypothetical: nobody can drop the fantastical elements, ASOIAF is written like that, there is no essence or "heart" of ASOIAF: what is written is what ASOIAF is... you drop the Fantasy, you are simply writing fanfiction. Know with which book this happened? Twilight. That's right, Fifty Shades of Grey is a fanfiction of Twilight removing the Fantastical element. You can argue the "heart" of that shitpile is intact in the fanfiction, but guess what, although it's not Urban Fantasy anymore, it's also not Twilight anymore. I see the argument that in ASOIAF magic and stuff is less meshed in with the story, ignoring again the fact the world is fantastical in itself, but even if you were Martin there is absolutely no way to unmesh the stuff after publication. There is no "if", you cannot, the Fantastical elements are in, and nobody can extricate them out. When you need to ignore what is written and need produce a new story and then argue that new and old story are the same to make a point, then you're wrong, totally, utterly wrong. But yeah, I have no doubt some story following the Yorks and the Lancasters in old England wouldn't be Fantasy. It would not be ASOIAF either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I can't believe a version of ASoIaF in which winter isn't coming would be anywhere near as effective. The fantasy elements (aside from the secondary world setting) might not take centre stage in most threads of the plot, but they certainly inform them. And I'd be very surprised if the conclusion of the series is something that could be rewritten as non-fantasy without being altered beyond recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 good thread. I read asoiaf as the inversion of clute & grant's model secondary world high fantasy as described in their encyclopedia: instead of a pure land protected from the corruptive thinning of a dark lord by secret guardians and hidden monarchs, we get a 'thickening' of a messed up land by open monarchs and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 There are fantasy elements sure. But this series just doesn't feel like fantasy to me. Don't get me wrong, I love the series. I haven't really wrapped my head around why this series doesn't feel like fantasy to me, but let me put it this way. Fantasy is a window into a different world. But ASOIAF is more like a mirror being held up to our own. It's a dirty warped mirror, but a mirror nonetheless.I think that's why the tv series is enjoying such success. I don't think it's the dire wolves and dragons. It's the politics and intrigue and warfare and human interactions. Take out the dragons and dire wolves, the series would still be insanely popular -- maybe even more so. Take out the political intrigue and leave the dragons, I think this series doesn't even get made.So, it feels more like historical drama to me. A fake history sure, though so much of this is ripped from the pages of history, which is why it resonates so strongly I think.Perhaps I'll feel differently as the series progresses and the fantasy quotient increases. Ummm....why can't a fantasy novel do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 rather, which fantasy novel fails to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 rather, which fantasy novel fails to do that? Yes. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowyn Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 You're obviously not the only one who's having that reaction. I am rather startled by that. I get the sense that fans of this genre are quick to see insult where none is intended or expressed. For whatever it's worth, while I don't read much fantasy anymore, it's my favorite genre from childhood and I have a deep love and appreciation for it. I've even read that Andre Norton book with Gulth the Lizardman lol.I would not consider Gormenghast fantasy. Don't take it to heart... it seems some folks get so attached and protective of GRRM and Game of Thrones. It's sort of geeky I know, but it's better than being a StarTrek dork.:) I've just started the books and the television series, and thus far the book A Game of Thrones feels more like an Alternate History than Fantasy. As for fantasy stories with precious little "fantasy" elements... you may want to try The Crown Conspiracy by Michael Sullivan. Fantasy is like Porn; it's not always easy to define or categorize... but you'll know it when you see it.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Fantasy is like Porn; it's not always easy to define or categorize... but you'll know it when you see it. :) Porn = artwork (either written or visual) whose primary purpose is to arouse sexual excitement in the audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Ummm....why can't a fantasy novel do this?I would say that this is the very purpose of a fantasy novel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Don't take it to heart... it seems some folks get so attached and protective of GRRM and Game of Thrones. It's sort of geeky I know, but it's better than being a StarTrek dork. :) I've just started the books and the television series, and thus far the book A Game of Thrones feels more like an Alternate History than Fantasy. As for fantasy stories with precious little "fantasy" elements... you may want to try The Crown Conspiracy by Michael Sullivan. Fantasy is like Porn; it's not always easy to define or categorize... but you'll know it when you see it. :) Come on. The first chapters feature Zombies, Others and Direwolfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowyn Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Porn = artwork (either written or visual) whose primary purpose is to arouse sexual excitement in the audience. Yes, but what arouses one person may not another. And where does the line get drawn on what is considered pornography?.. same with fantasy. I think Taem brings up some good points, especially as the fantasy genre seems to be growing up and becoming bolder, and less generic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yes, but what arouses one person may not another.And where does the line get drawn on what is considered pornography?.. same with fantasy. I think Taem brings up some good points, especially as the fantasy genre seems to be growing up and becoming bolder, and less generic.I disagree. I think there have always been generic and non-generic works, and what is generic is constantly in fluxAs a few examples, take The Gunslinger, Titus Groan and the Sandman as older completely different fantasy stories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yes, but what arouses one person may not another. And where does the line get drawn on what is considered pornography?.. same with fantasy. I think Taem brings up some good points, especially as the fantasy genre seems to be growing up and becoming bolder, and less generic. Okay, let me put it like this: The series features magic, fictional races and people, it takes place in a fictional world in which fictional laguages are spoken. That's fantasy for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yes, but what arouses one person may not another. Porn isn't defined by its substantive content. It's defined by its intended purpose: was the intent of this piece of art to arouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Don't take it to heart... it seems some folks get so attached and protective of GRRM and Game of Thrones.Now that is condescending baloney. It does not change anything whether ASOIAF is Fantasy or not, a lot of those in the lit forum actually read and like stuff from every genre, there is nothing to be protective about in how a book is labelled, a category does not make it better or worse (in any case, in your "protective" scenario you would more likely have people claim it's not Fantasy to make it distinguish itself from Fantasy, as Fantasy has that geeky/negative connotion about it.) It's just that the OP is objectively wrong. I think Taem brings up some good points, especially as the fantasy genre seems to be growing up and becoming bolder, and less generic.I'm stumped as to what that is supposed to mean in regard to ASOIAF:If you mean less "generic" Fantasy works ought to not be called Fantasy, you are indeed implying it's Fantasy only when it's generic. Bullshit, so, and moving on from that you would have to provide a definition for "generic"; if "generic" means a story where prophesied kid heroes (hidden heir, princess(es), wizard, swordsman...) go on a journey, get magical pets and items, marshall armies and defeat the dark lord, goddam, ASOIAF is right there.If you mean Fantasy is starting to encompass works it would not have encompassed before, and it's interesting to examine those works: ASOIAF is not among those works, it is squarely in classic Fantasy area: Dragons, magical beasts, zombies, magic, prophecies, different world, different seasons, genetics, physics, it's all here, on top of the usual "bunch of prophesied kids party together and save the world". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gormenghast Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 It's always the same with these types of debates: - definitions are spectrums, not binary states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 It's always the same with these types of debates:- definitions are spectrums, not binary states.Excellent post, and indeed the spectrum can be seen on a number of overlapping dimensions, to a degree even more complex than spectra. And i am sorry, but it is spectra, like media. I'm a pedant and it doesn't really matter, I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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