Jump to content

does ASOIAF really belong in the fantasy genre?


taem

Recommended Posts

You keep bring up the same points, we keep bringing up the same points. aSoIaF/Harry Potter/Ghormengast is just as much fantasy as Wot or LotR. End of story. What you're really arguing ins that certain types of fantasy are more pure than others. I haven't seen one person here agree with your take on it so far.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

A while back I read The Steel Remains by Richard Morgan, and it definitely casts fantasy in a harsher light. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I guess if I had to call it anything it would be Hardcore Fantasy.

But we're still left with the question... where to put A Song of Ice and Fire within the Fantasy Genre.

Reread the part where the moon is destroyed in a space battle. :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point isn't "if you changed this" the point is the story DOES HAVE THOSE THINGS. Plain and simple.

A huge chunk, an overwhelming share of the books, does not in fact have those things. An overwhelming portion of what's been plotted out so far is pure game of thrones stuff.

And fuck, the main political intrigue to start the series dealt entirely with fictional fantastical genes!

The "seed is strong" plot line is improbable but not it's not necessarily magical. It is in fact genetically possible that Robert could father 16 bastards by 16 different women and they all have his dark hair and physically resemble him. Again, unlikely, but not something that would require magic to effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That being said, there are writers out there who play with the commonly accepted definitions of SF, fantasy, and mainstream literature and mix them up so that you cannot definitively pin it down to a particular genre. One that comes to mind is The Cold Commands by Richard Morgan. I was most of the way through it before I realized what was happening with the setting and I thought it was too cool for words. Roger Zelazny also did something similar with his Amber series and Steven King's The Gunslinger series does it well too. Don't try to hard to pin down what is or is not fantasy, just enjoy a great read.

What is "mainstream literature", though? Anything can be categorised. And on the other hand, almost no book will be "pure" genre, as in, having no elements from other genres.

I wholly agree with the last sentence. It is not important what we categorise it as long as one can enjoy reading it.

About Tolkien, that success was achieved over time and it was never at any point in its history a hot cultural phenomenon like HBO's GoT is today. (Talking about the books, not the movies.) And I'm not sure it ever went beyond its identity as a high fantasy to reach a broader audience; I think the sales figures have more to do with the fact that every fan of fantasy will have these books. Even in a niche genre, if every fan buys your books, you will enjoy good sales. But maybe I'm wrong, it's not like I was alive in the 60s. Maybe back then folks chatted about LotR at the water cooler the way folks do with GoT today. I wouldn't imagine that was ever the case though. Let me put it this way -- I don't know anyone who isn't a fan of fantasy that likes, or has even read, LotR. I know a metric ton of people who don't like fantasy who love GoT, even the books. Oh and edit to add, Jackson was not the first to bring LotR to the screen. Bakshi tried, and that effort failed.

Can you differentiate more clearly between ASOIAF and GOT?

The majority of the readership came to the book series through the TV show, most of whom would have probably not read the books if not for HBO. I think GOT is the "hot cultural phenomenon", ASOIAF not so much. As you have rightfully said, people chat about GOT. ASOIAF, not so much.

And again, the genres are not defined by popularity, but by what the books feature. You want to discuss the reception of ASOIAF, great. But that has absolutely no connection to what genre you define it as (as long as you are not discussing marketing strategies that come with the title "fantasy").

About Harry Potter, juvenile/young adult is an odd thing. I have nieces in that age group and I buy a lot of books for them so I'm somewhat familiar with the industry. It's like pony league soccer; it's almost as if these kids have some sort of collective consciousness and out of the blue they all glom onto one thing. I think the HP books are brilliant, I think Rowling really achieved something special there. But I couldn't place a meaning on how huge that series was, not when it's completely unfathomable to me why millions of kids decide they all like this one thing, and could not care less about another thing, and then the next week what they loved so much it made them sit on the floor and cry is just crap, they've moved on. And they all do it at the same time without even talking to each other beforehand. It's a baffling, almost magical thing these kids do.

In any event, I walked into another digression lol.

It was huge. Huger than GOT is nowadays for certain, at least I feel it that way.

And you are just describing popularity again. HP is popular, ASOIAF/GOT is popular. They both belong to fantasy. Not sure if there is a problem with that.

I'm not saying universal themes render a book not a fantasy, not at all. In fact for any book or story to really resonate it must contain universal themes. Pride and Prejudice and Romeo and Juliet are not timeless because of the way they were plotted, or clever dialogue, but because they speak to universal themes. But, where fantasy is concerned, those themes have to play out in reference to the fantastic. That is what you get in WoT, where Rand is a young man in love, but his destiny as the reincarnation of a man who went mad and slaughtered his own wife and children drives how he relates to the women who love him.

But in ASOIAF? (Again, what we have so far.) The political intrigues have nothing to do with the fantastic. The only real example is Renly's death. But he could have been killed off in another way without affecting the political intrigues. It doesn't take magic to bump Joffrey off for example. The vast majority of the characters, the vast majority of the plot, plays out with no reference whatsoever to the fantastic: House Lannister, Robb, House Tyrell, Martell, the Freys' betrayal, Varys and Littlefinger, Sansa, Sandor Clegane, what happens to Theon. Take out all the magic and and replace them with plot point substitutions, or hell just leave them out altogether, and we still have all that. and what we have is the heart of the story.

Well, my personal favourite thing about Pride and Prejudice is the clever dialogue, it is what makes me love it so much. ;)

"In reference to the fantastic" ... you mean that organisation Jon has joined has no reference to the battling of the humanoid-ish creepy monsters that might be considered phantastic creatures?

You have been told more than once that the quantity of the phantastic elements has no role, just their existence. But if you insist, how many POVs have had to deal with something "phantastic":

All the Starks since direwolves: Eddard, Jon, Brandon, Sansa, Arya

Cat since resurrection.

Melisandre and Davos since leeches, shadowbabies etc.

Theon since the leaves of the weirwood whispering to him.

Dany, duh

Victarion since stuff with Moqorro

Brienne, stuff with Stoneheart

Sammy, white walker business

(Probably also Aeron because of all the droned god nonsense)

All of the prologue POVs, and Merret as epilogue

Out of those that really had nothing to do with it, I can only think of Tyrion, Arianne, Jaime, Cersei and the goddamn Areo Hotah.

(I am likely forgetting some, but you get my point.)

You guys telling me you would not enjoy this series on those terms?

I do not know. This is not the story I have read.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A huge chunk, an overwhelming share of the books, does not in fact have those things. An overwhelming portion of what's been plotted out so far is pure game of thrones stuff.

The "seed is strong" plot line is improbable but not it's not necessarily magical. It is in fact genetically possible that Robert could father 16 bastards by 16 different women and they all have his dark hair and physically resemble him. Again, unlikely, but not something that would require magic to effect.

To your first point, how does that change that fantastical elements still exist? And how does it change that a good chunk of book deals DIRECTLY with fantasy elements? And how does it change that for many people, those fantasy elements are their favorite parts? Your hypotheticals are arbitrary and seem only to keep the part of the books you want. It's not asoiaf without the prophetic dreams, the zombies or the dragons. We here like asoiaf, you seem to care for parts of GoT only.

To your second point, that'd be fine if every house didn't have a distinct look, despite years of intermarrying. Genes in the books don't work like real life genes and have a fantastical component to them.

The bottom line is that fantastic elements exist in the books. Forget everything else. They exist. That's why it's fantasy. If The Wire took place in London it'd be a British story, but it's not, it takes place in Baltimore and it's an American story. That's plain and simple. Arbitrary hypotheticals are arbitrary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A huge chunk, an overwhelming share of the books, does not in fact have those things. An overwhelming portion of what's been plotted out so far is pure game of thrones stuff.

An overwhelming proportion of Lord of the Rings is just a bunch of guys travelling through various towns and wildernesses, occasionally listening to poetry and smoking pipe-weed. It's practically On The Road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You keep bring up the same points, we keep bringing up the same points. aSoIaF/Harry Potter/Ghormengast is just as much fantasy as Wot or LotR. End of story. What you're really arguing ins that certain types of fantasy are more pure than others. I haven't seen one person here agree with your take on it so far.

Actually, I think the argument is more that certain types of fantasy are more real, familiar and intimate than others. I'm just started into the whole world of GoT, and it's quite different from LotR, at least to me it is. We really do need to come to some agreement on what to call ASoIaF.:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, I think the argument is more that certain types of fantasy are more real, familiar and intimate than others. I'm just started into the whole world of GoT, and it's quite different from LotR, at least to me it is. We really do need to come to some agreement on what to call ASoIaF.:)

We don't. Not really. Every fantasy book has things different than another.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A cultural phenomenon to me is something that captures the imagination of a large segment of society at one moment in time, so that it becomes a shared interest and a common basis for dialogue. Everyone is talking about GoT. They are the most downloaded torrent files ever. The actors are all over every talk show. At what point in history did LotR ever capture the imagination of such a large segment of society at one moment in time to such an extent? I don't think that ever happened. Its success is more of a slow boil over time and iconic status as a work that launched a genre.

Well, my personal favourite thing about Pride and Prejudice is the clever dialogue, it is what makes me love it so much. ;)

Me too! That dialogue just snaps.

About the examples you mention, would you say the plotlines and themes play out in reference to those elements? Take Lady Stoneheart. How are themes and plots playing out in reference to her fantastic status? What would change if she were instead a woman driven mad with grief whose vocal chords were cut?

Edit let me expand on that a bit. Iirc Beric's BWB formed before Beric's first death. Their mission, their role, came to be prior to any introduction of the fantastic. And then Beric died, again and again. And the mission and role did not change. And then Beric was replaced by another zombie. And the BWB continues to roll on, nothing has changed. So I don't see anything playing out in reference to the fantastic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A cultural phenomenon to me is something that captures the imagination of a large segment of society at one moment in time, so that it becomes a shared interest and a common basis for dialogue. Everyone is talking about GoT. They are the most downloaded torrent files ever. The actors are all over every talk show. At what point in history did LotR ever capture the imagination of such a large segment of society at one moment in time to such an extent? I don't think that ever happened. Its success is more of a slow boil over time and iconic status as a work that launched a genre.

Again, no idea where you live, because that shit was EVERYWHERE where I was. Also, torrenting is bigger now than it ever was back then, bad comparison. LotR was HUGE. Seriously, where did you live that it wasn't?

I think you're getting confused that because there wasn't the social media presence that there is today that something wasn't as big. That's just false if LotR had been released in the Twitter age you'd see it a lot more than you saw it before, and that's saying something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't. Not really. Every fantasy book has things different than another.

I think what I'm trying to say is that GRRM does a beautiful job of meshing the fantasy elements with the more mundane realities of Life... relationships, political intrigue, etc. I loved reading LotR when I was a kid, but I could never return to that type of epic fantasy, it just doesn't interest me anymore. ASoIaF, though perhaps it's written in the spirit of LotR, is far more interesting and engaging to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have to say I’m puzzled by all this anger at OP. As I got it, he only wanted to say that ASOIAF is different than what is usually considered fantasy. And it is a very good point. Even if you like other fantasy stuff as much as or even more than you like ASOIAF (and OP named least two fantasy series he prefers to ASOIAF), it’s a valid question, that doesn’t present fantasy as something inevitably inferior.



Just compare LOTR and ASOIAF. The former is usually considered great literature. Based on it, Tolkien was even a legitimate Nobel contender. And yet, Tolkien’s work is pure fantasy. It reflects our world very vaguely. Tolkien’s characters are really not like humans from Earth from any period of actual history, nor do societies he created reflect human societies. On the other hand, ASOIAF is based on characters that are endlessly relatable, and on a society that reflects our own very much. The most iconic moments of ASOIAF are about human drama that resulted from some sort of political or social or family intrigue: Ned’s death, The Red Wedding, The Battle of the Blackwater Bay (wildfire is modeled after actual Greek fire), Tyrion murdering Tywin and Shae, Oberyn/Mountain duel, Jon’s stabbing and so on. All of which means that, even though it contains fantasy elements, ASOIAF is essentially different from great many other fantasy works out there. Not to mention that even fantasy elements in ASOIAF are brought with some political or social meaning (Mel’s shadow-babies are a prime example).



ASOIAF is not the first nor the only literature that does that: Gaiman’s “American Gods” and Kay’s “Tigana” and “The Sarantine Mosaic” are similar examples, though, in my eyes, not nearly as good as ASOIAF is. David Gemmell’s two-part series “Lion of Macedon” + “Dark Prince” could fall into the same category, although it is based in actual historical period and depicts actual historical figures so it’s more of a historical fiction than a fantasy (and, again, not as good as Martin’s series).



My answer to the OP question: ASOIAF is a work that clearly transcends genre bounds. It obviously contains numerous elements of a specific genre, but it also fits the most usual descriptions of high literature or literary fiction (as opposite to genre literature and genre fiction). Martin is evidently influenced and inspired by Fitzgerald, Faulkner, Goethe, and also by The Godfather movies, and other works that aren’t considered a genre fiction (not to mention actual history, his biggest source of inspiration) – which probably means that even his ambition is larger than usual ambitions of genre writers. ASOIAF can’t help but fall into fantasy category (and, personally, I don’t see anything wrong with that), but at the same time it also belongs to high literature, or, more precise, it may very well belong there at the end, if Martin completes the story in style. Never Let Me Go is a very good parallel in that regard, and I’d add one more title from the science fiction genre: A Scanner Darkly by Phillip K. Dick.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going off any scientific study here, but while unlikely, I don't think it's inconceivable that every single person I know might have either read or watched Lord of the Rings, and many will have done both.



This isn't even remotely true of aSoIaF/GoT. Yes, it is a big deal, but you appear to be vastly overestimating it because of its disproportionate popularity with the internet-keen demographic.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think what I'm trying to say is that GRRM does a beautiful job of meshing the fantasy elements with the more mundane realities of Life... relationships, political intrigue, etc. I loved reading LotR when I was a kid, but I could never return to that type of epic fantasy, it just doesn't interest me anymore. ASoIaF, though perhaps it's written in the spirit of LotR, is far more interesting and engaging to me.

It's still fantasy. The differences are in style and prose. Tolkien had a prose not everyone likes and uses archaic language and deals with more black and white morality. It's also travelogue.

Prefect example, some horror movies are just interested in blood and death, some are interested in human psychology and social undertones, yet, they're both still horror.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A cultural phenomenon to me is something that captures the imagination of a large segment of society at one moment in time, so that it becomes a shared interest and a common basis for dialogue. Everyone is talking about GoT. They are the most downloaded torrent files ever. The actors are all over every talk show. At what point in history did LotR ever capture the imagination of such a large segment of society at one moment in time to such an extent? I don't think that ever happened. Its success is more of a slow boil over time and iconic status as a work that launched a genre.

Me too! That dialogue just snaps.

About the examples you mention, would you say the plotlines and themes play out in reference to those elements? Take Lady Stoneheart. How are themes and plots playing out in reference to her fantastic status? What would change if she were instead a woman driven mad with grief whose vocal chords were cut?

Maybe you are just watching those talk shows that are likelier to interview GOT actors than those who rather invite other guests? :dunno:

And you again speak of GOT, not ASOIAF. Maybe people are talking of it and download the torrents. Of GOT. Not of ASOIAF.

You are concentrating on the TV show more than on the books. The TV show also toned down the supernatural elements a lot, compared to the books. Coincidence - or not?

And you still have not explained how the popularity proves that something is not fantasy. There are two facts relevant about ASOIAF/GOT for this discussion.

1. It is fantasy.

2. It is popular.

They are not mutually exclusive. It is that simple.

Honestly, I do not know what do you mean that the plotlines should "play out in reference to those elements". The supernatural elements are there and this is what matters. Some truths that we can interpret from the text are shown on the background of phantastic elements. They play in the plot. It is like saying that Harry hated Voldemort because he killed his parents by magic - no he did not, he hated him because he killed his parents.*

Lady Stoneheart was a walking corpse walking around hanging people. If she were not, this would not be ASOIAF.

*Oh wait, but HP is suddenly not qualified to act as comparison either because ... something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate this "it transcends" crap. Everything transcends to a point. Nothing is pure. Asoiaf can be both fantasy and high literature. Being fantasy doesn't mean it can't be captivating, deep and well written.

Zombie movies in large are social commentary, BUT THEY'RE STILL ZOMBIE HORROR.

Edit: The "extra" things you feel comparison other fantasy books doesn't make it not fantasy. It makes it original, more complex, and deeper, and well written, but it doesn't change genre itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate this "it transcends" crap. Everything transcends to a point. Nothing is pure. Asoiaf can be both fantasy and high literature. Being fantasy doesn't mean it can't be captivating, deep and well written.

Zombie movies in large are social commentary, BUT THEY'RE STILL ZOMBIE HORROR.

Edit: The "extra" things you feel comparison other fantasy books doesn't make it not fantasy. It makes it original, more complex, and deeper, and well written, but it doesn't change genre itself.

Are you trying to say that we shouldn't make distinctions between fantasy works? Aren't there genre pieces that do try - and sometimes succeed - to deal with important social and political and psychological issues, opposite to other genre pieces that, although possibly great in their own right, just don't? LOTR is, in my eyes, something that doesn't transcend genre boundaries. It uses genre elements perfectly, and that is why it's so popular even among non-fantasy fans, just like Romeo and Juliet are popular among and respected by people who otherwise don't care about romances. So, transcending genre boundaries isn't a success on its own, nor is not transcending a failure, but it is something that can be noted.

Also, the show you took the avatar from, is a clear example of a story that transcended the cop procedural genre.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...