(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Lord Varys]

I guess it took also quite some time to decide that a Great Council should be called. I guess the Targaryens were at first intent to settle the succession among themselves, rather than allowing the Lords of the Realm a say in the matter. This could have been especially interesting if both Aerion's and Daeron's wives were still alive at this point.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

Well, I figure that in this particular situation they thought that Tytos was going to whistle Tywin back, if they only stalled him long enough. And then Tywin would have faced a dilemma between backing down and openly rebelling against his father.

Though, it seems that even in this latter case, he would have had a lot of support in the West and the crown may not have minded.

However! They had to realize that when/if Tywin succeeded his father, he'd be unleashed and they'd be in a very hot soup. It isn't like he was an unknown quality either - he expressed his views frequently and forcefully and he had proved himself in war on the Stepstones. He was also close to the royal family.

Well, they have witnessed a drastic change from Gerold to Tytos... they had to know that things would be different again once the Lord Paramount changed. But maybe they thought that they'd be able to openly challenge Lannisters for paramountship of the West, at this point? Did they actually have enough allies for something like this? They have pissed off a lot of Western lords with their land grabs, after all...

Yes, indeed. I used to think that Kevan could have done it too, but now it seems that he was something of a late-bloomer, not to mention had personal entanglements with the Reynes, that would have made it even more difficult. Yes, Tywin was definitely shaped by his circumstances in major ways. He still should have known not to rely on over-the-top brutality too much, after he made his initial statement.

I can only hope that we are going to learn a bit about Joanna too. There was distressingly little so far.

Maia,

the thing is, it may not be mentioned, but I guess Tywin was ridiculed directly (and indirectly) just as often as Tytos, and he would have suffered that from a very early age onwards. As the eldest son, he would have gotten the full force of it, since people obviously gradually started to disrespect Tytos. Tywin would have be old enough to get the full force when things really started to deteriorate.

Even more importantly, since Tywin was not Tytos himself, he would have heard how people laughed and joked behind his father's back, and his peers would have also have made fun of him because of his weak-willed father.

I really believe by the time Tywin took charge, the West was so accustomed to Tytos misrule, that they simply did not take Tywin seriously. They would have believed that his threats were empty, too. After all, how strong willed could a son of such a father be. There could have been signs, I guess, but the Red Lion either ignored them or failed to recognize them.

If Tywin's youth was really a constant fight to be taken seriously as a man/leader/lord, then it's really no surprise that he cannot back down later on under any circumstances, since he considers any such a sign of weakness to be exploited by the other party. Even when he is not actually dealing with enemies or people who are challenging him.

This is very true as far as people underestimating Tywin. He is the son of a laughingstock and though somewhat tested, still very much unproven. This whole affair seems to be his coming out party, stating 'I am MuthaFreaking Tywin Lannister!' It's easy to look at someone young and underestimate them...in fact...I seem to recall an older version of Tywin underestimating the military savvy of another young Lord...history repeats itself in the funniest of ways!!

[Ibbison from Ibben]

on the sparing of the Peakes -

It's not that hard to imagine a scenario where they manage to survive. The fact that Maekar was besieging Starpike indicates that the Peakes were no doubt heavily involved in Blackfyre III. Certainly whoever their head of house was at that time would have to pay with his life. The punishment of the rest of the house, however, would be a matter for discussion. Maekar presumably chose to take extreme measures against all the Peakes, but the beginning of a new reign is always a fertile time for changes. Aegon V may have decided that showing some mercy would make him look magnanimous. He may also have taken hostages.

We hear nothing about any Peakes misbehaving since Aegon V's ascension. Maybe his policy worked.

[Bael's Bastard]

Tywin was squire to Prince Aerys, and he was knighted by him. (this is apparently wrong, Ran just posted on the forum saying as much)

So, did GRRM say the wrong name, or was it just perhaps recorded incorrectly?

Do we know any other prince than Aerys who was still alive after Summerhall? Perhaps Egg's youngest son was a knight and was still alive? Or perhaps it was a Dornish prince? Or perhaps the prince part is a mistake as well?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So, did GRRM say the wrong name, or was it just perhaps recorded incorrectly?

Do we know any other prince than Aerys who was still alive after Summerhall? Perhaps Egg's youngest son was a knight and was still alive? Or perhaps it was a Dornish prince? Or perhaps the prince part is a mistake as well?

I would have a hard time picturing Tywin as the squire of a Dornish knight.. Can anyone see him as the squire of Prince Lewyn..? :P

[Bael's Bastard]

Not necessarily, but Aegon V's cupbearer also came out of left field for me, lol.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Not necessarily, but Aegon V's cupbearer also came out of left field for me, lol.

True :p

[Maia]

Not necessarily, but Aegon V's cupbearer also came out of left field for me, lol.

I have always thought that Tywin must have squired for Aegon V or Jahaerys II. The whole "friend of his youth" thing re: Aerys suggested to me that they were close before Tywin was named Hand, so Tywin must have grown up at court.

And, frankly, it seemed to me that nobody was going to name a 20-year-old his Hand unless there was a pre-existing friendship, Rains of Castamere or not. So, yea, TWOIAF reveals were pretty much expected by me, apart from the twist that, apparently, Tywin was sent to court as a punishment (?!) for physically attacking his father.

[HexMachina]

So, did GRRM say the wrong name, or was it just perhaps recorded incorrectly?

Do we know any other prince than Aerys who was still alive after Summerhall? Perhaps Egg's youngest son was a knight and was still alive? Or perhaps it was a Dornish prince? Or perhaps the prince part is a mistake as well?

Perhaps it should be "was a squire WITH Prince Aerys." They were both of round about the same age weren't they?

[Lion of the West]

I would have a hard time picturing Tywin as the squire of a Dornish knight.. Can anyone see him as the squire of Prince Lewyn..? :P

Why would that be problematic? Tywin thinks nothing special about the Dornish, its the Dornish that hates his guts, not the other way around.

[Bael's Bastard]

Perhaps it should be "was a squire WITH Prince Aerys." They were both of round about the same age weren't they?

I don't think they are more than a year or two apart. I suppose that could be, but the wording seems to indicate that Tywin squired for and was knighted by such and such.

[HexMachina]

I don't think they are more than a year or two apart. I suppose that could be, but the wording seems to indicate that Tywin squired for and was knighted by such and such.

But if its come from notes, its possible that is one of the errors Ran mentioned

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Tywin was born in 242AC, Aerys in 243AC (though memory is failing now as to what the source for that is... IIRC he was 19 when he ascended to the throne)

[HexMachina]

Tywin was born in 242AC, Aerys in 243AC (though memory is failing now as to what the source for that is... IIRC he was 19 when he ascended to the throne)

So it is more likely that Tywin squired WITH Aerys than FOR Aerys? I'm not ruling out squiring for Aerys of course, it just makes more sense this way to me

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So it is more likely that Tywin squired WITH Aerys than FOR Aerys? I'm not ruling out squiring for Aerys of course, it just makes more sense this way to me

Yeah, I think so.. Especially with only 1 year difference in age at the most. Just like Rhaegar squired with Jon Connington, not one for the other..

It's really starting to annoy me now that I can't seem to remember the source for Aerys' birth.. Memory fail...

[History of Westeros]

So, did GRRM say the wrong name, or was it just perhaps recorded incorrectly?

Do we know any other prince than Aerys who was still alive after Summerhall? Perhaps Egg's youngest son was a knight and was still alive? Or perhaps it was a Dornish prince? Or perhaps the prince part is a mistake as well?

I think we misunderstood Ran's correction/clarification. I think he was only correcting Lord Varys on the notion that Aerys *fought* in the Wo9PK, not about the knighting.

So to be clear: I think Aerys did knight Tywin, but Aerys did not fight in the war. Ashaya and I both had "Aerys knighted Tywin" in our notes. Would be pretty odd for us both to have gotten that wrong, but possible.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yeah, I think so.. Especially with only 1 year difference in age at the most. Just like Rhaegar squired with Jon Connington, not one for the other..

It's really starting to annoy me now that I can't seem to remember the source for Aerys' birth.. Memory fail...

Ah, my mind is at ease again.

Found it!

[Bael's Bastard]

I think we misunderstood Ran's correction/clarification. I think he was only correcting Lord Varys on the notion that Aerys *fought* in the Wo9PK, not about the knighting.

So to be clear: I think Aerys did knight Tywin, but Aerys did not fight in the war. Ashaya and I both had "Aerys knighted Tywin" in our notes. Would be pretty odd for us both to have gotten that wrong, but possible.

Thank you for the clarification, that makes sense.

[Lord Varys]

When I came up with my claim that 'Aerys fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings', I got carried away by the fact that Prince Aerys was actually there. I didn't really expect that. I never imagined Aerys in any war-like situation whatsoever.

By this time, Aerys was Prince of Dragonstone (i.e. he had a seat of his own) - and was also possibly a knight 'by courtesy' - so he could really have knighted people (we already know that kings can make knights even if they are not knights themselves, and this may also be true about the Prince of Dragonstone). Tywin being his squire would have been a huge honor, despite the fact that they were of the same age. He was the Prince of Dragonstone, after all.

That said, Tywin spending much of his youth in KL, in the care of Aegon V (possibly Jaehaerys II) and as friend of Aerys, Kevan thinking that Aerys would recall Tywin after the Battle of the Bells and Connington's exile, may indicate that Tywin had no intention of joining the Rebellion until after the Trident. And it's also possible that Tywin was also suffering very much from the Ellyn-Barbrey-syndrom ('I want so desperately be part of that family, that I'll turn against them, if they don't accept me').

Think about it, he lived at court Egg's court, possibly knew some of his other grandchildren besides Rhaella and Aerys. His wish to marry Cersei to Rhaegar may have come from the fact that he wanted to marry a Targaryen princess, but couldn't, because Aerys had only one sister, and other granddaughters of Egg's may have disappeared/died at Summerhall.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wait, which Targaryen Kings have been confirmed to not have been knights, but did knight people?