(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Lord Varys]

GRRM confirmed that kings can knight people, even if they are not knights themselves. Of the Targaryen kings, I guess Aenys, Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, Aegon III, Baelor I, Daeron II, Aerys I, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II may not have been knights (not so sure about Viserys II and Aegon IV). Although it's also very likely that many of these were still knighted by courtesy.

Up to this day, we still don't know if Stannis is a knight. He could be, if he's not, he either still had the authority to make Davos a knight, or another knight did it in Stannis' stead.

[Maia]

Or any kings, for that matter? I thought that kings who weren't themselves knights had KG or other notable knights in their service do the dubbing.

Also, if Aerys was only a "knight by courtesy" and didn't participate in the fighting, then him knighting Tywin wasn't such a great thing for Tywin. It made it look unearned, a favor between friends. Maybe it was another reason why Reynes and Tarbecks didn't take Tywin as seriously as they should have, when he returned home.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok, I had missed that statement from GRRM.

As to Stannis, doesn't Davos mention specifically that Stannis had knighted him? Stannis wouldn't have been able to do so if he hadn't been a knight himself. Davos wanted Stannis to cut the fingers tips off himself, so I'd say it would have been important to Davos that Stannis had done the knighting himself as well, right?

[Lord Varys]

The phrase 'knighted by courtesy' is not supposed to be 'Lord by courtesy' (i.e. Varys and Qyburn, who are called 'Lord', but don't actually own any lands).

Rather, that they were knighted because they were princes despite the fact that they did not actually excel at the at arms. So, if they weren't princes/kings no one would ever have knighted them, but they got knighted because it looked better and people following them wanted it to be that way.

To be knighted by a king/prince should always be a great honor, especially if said king did not knight other people on a regular basis. Think about it, Rhaegar knighted Gregor Clegane - it's more than fitting (one could even say expected) that Aerys would knight Tywin...

Stannis did the punishment stuff personally, just like a First Man would, with a cleaver to make it cleaner, but it's nowhere stated, at least not as far as I remember, that Stannis himself did the knighting.

I'd still Aerys leading the forces of the Iron Throne on the Stepstones, either from behind the lands, or from horseback/litter. But the picture of Aerys actually participating in the fighting is wrong.

[RumHam]

Before Lord Stannis had knighted him, he had been the most notorious and elusive smuggler in all the Seven Kingdoms.

That doesn't count?

[Lord Varys]

I stand corrected. Stannis is the greatest knight that ever was, anyway. He doesn't have to ride in a tourney to prove that...

[Bael's Bastard]

In the case of Rhaegar and Gregor, I'm pretty sure Rhaegar was already a knight himself and not just a prince when he knighted Gregor.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaegar wad knighted at age 17. A few years later he knighted Gregor, who was then 17

[Lord Varys]

I know that Gregor was a knight. I just found the irony priceless - Aerys knights Tywin, and Rhaegar knights Gregor. I'm pretty sure this was the case. Either Aerys was a knight himself at this time (not unlikely - Jaehaerys could have knighted him, when he ascended the Iron Throne), or Aerys knighted Tywin after his father's death upon his own ascension to the Iron Throne.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Also, one thing I'd certainly like to know is why the hell Rhaegar knighted Gregor in the first place.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also, one thing I'd certainly like to know is why the hell Rhaegar knighted Gregor in the first place.

Drunk? Lost a bet?

[Maia]

Either Aerys was a knight himself at this time (not unlikely - Jaehaerys could have knighted him, when he ascended the Iron Throne), or Aerys knighted Tywin after his father's death upon his own ascension to the Iron Throne.

Well, the reading revealed that Tywin was already a knight at 19, when he eradicated Tarbecks and Reynes. And that it was during the reign of Jahaerys the Second.

Practically speaking, given Tywin's social position, he would have been knighted at 18 at the latest, IMHO, even if his martial abilities were average and at the time of peace.

Being knighted by Rhaegar was a honor, but Rhaegar was a proper knight, not a courtesy one. I guess that Rhaegar must have knighted a bunch of westerners as a favor to Tywin, and Gregor happened to be one of them?

BTW, where did GRRM say that kings could knight people without being knights themselves? Is it in the App?

Oh, and why the doubts re: Stannis's status? From what we have seen, all somewhat martial southern nobles are knights. IIRC, for some reason, people have been doubting Tywin's knighthood too, in the past.

[RumHam]

BTW, where did GRRM say that kings could knight people without being knights themselves? Is it in the App?

I don't know of a SSM, but that is definitely the case. Robb's deal with the Freys requires him to take a Frey squire and knight him within a reasonable amount of time.

Oh, and why the doubts re: Stannis's status? From what we have seen, all somewhat martial southern nobles are knights. IIRC, for some reason, people have been doubting Tywin's knighthood too, in the past.

Yeah. There was also a thread recently questioning Robert's knighthood. I used to think all southern lords would be knighted at least as a courtesy. I think Tytos is the first one we hear about who definitely isn't, but I might be wrong.

[Ran]

Littlefinger isn't a knight, but a lord. Lord Florent's heir Alekyne isn't a knight either. I think there's an ambivalence about knighting people undeservedly that most families feel in Westeros feel, which prevent them from putting themselves up for ridicule by pushing for the advancement of someone who isn't suited. (Not all families, necessarily.)

[RumHam]

oh right how could I forget Littlefinger.

Edit: while you're here I don't suppose you wanna chime in on the question of whether Rickard Stark was a knight?

[Maia]

Robb's deal with the Freys requires him to take a Frey squire and knight him within a reasonable amount of time.

It didn't sound to me like Robb was supposed to dub Olyvar himself. He had some notable knights in his service, who could have done it, after all.

And until now we have never heard about Aerys personally knighting anybody. Rhaegar did, but then, he was a proper knight himself.

I used to think all southern lords would be knighted at least as a courtesy. I think Tytos is the first one we hear about who definitely isn't, but I might be wrong.

I used to think the opposite - namely, that pure courtesy knightings didn't happen even for the royal family and that kings, who weren't themselves knights, just had KG doing the honors. After all, even Daeron the Drunken was supposed to participate in tourneys and such, so he must have had the training, for all the good it did him. But now it seems that courtesy knightings did happen, after all.

How do we know this, BTW? Is it in SSM or in the World book?

And, as Ran points out, we had Lord Baelish as an example of a lord, who wasn't knighted. Also, Alekyne Florent and Willas Tyrell as examples of adult heirs to lordships, who weren't knighted. BTW, is there any info as to what is the deal with Alekyne? I mean, all other men in his family are/were knighted and he is no third son, suddenly come into prominence.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It didn't sound to me like Robb was supposed to dub Olyvar himself. He had some notable knights in his service, who could have done it, after all.

And until now we have never heard about Aerys personally knighting anybody. Rhaegar did, but then, he was a proper knight himself.

I used to think the opposite - namely, that pure courtesy knightings didn't happen even for the royal family and that kings, who weren't themselves knights, just had KG doing the honors. After all, even Daeron the Drunken was supposed to participate in tourneys and such, so he must have had the training, for all the good it did him. But now it seems that courtesy knightings did happen, after all.

How do we know this, BTW? Is it in SSM or in the World book?

And, as Ran points out, we had Lord Baelish as an example of a lord, who wasn't knighted. Also, Alekyne Florent and Willas Tyrell as examples of adult heirs to lordships, who weren't knighted. BTW, is there any info as to what is the deal with Alekyne? I mean, all other men in his family are/were knighted and he is no first son, suddenly come into prominence.

It should be noted that Willas was trying for knighthood.. but due to his accident, couldn't continue that training.

[RumHam]

It didn't sound to me like Robb was supposed to dub Olyvar himself. He had some notable knights in his service, who could have done it, after all.

Isn't the normal procedure that you squire for someone and then they knight you? But yeah I guess I was making an assumption there, that Walder was angling for the extra prestige in being knighted by a king.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Isn't the normal procedure that you squire for someone and then they knight you? But yeah I guess I was making an assumption there, that Walder was angling for the extra prestige in being knighted by a king.

There are some knights among the Northerners like the Manderlys, Ser Helman Tallhart or Ser Rodrik Cassel. I always thought, that Robb would be knighted by one of his fellow Northerners or one knight from the Riverlands and then knight Olyvar himself.

[Lord Varys]

As Ran has pointed out, there are those lords who push their sons to become knights, and others do not. There are certainly princes and kings unsuited for the knightly stuff, but whether they were knighted (forced to be become a knight, rather) would depend on their fathers. For instance, I imagine that Daeron II did not push Aerys and Rhaegel to become knights and participate in tourneys and such. On the other hand, Prince Maekar did force all his sons to do exactly that. At Ashford, Aerion and Daeron most certainly were already knights.

I can easily see Aerys II being knighted when the preparation for the war began. It seems that he was House Targaryen's representative on the Stepstones (that is, if Jaehaerys did stay at home, which I assume he did). So technically Aerys would have had the supreme command of the Iron Throne's forces, and it's easily imaginable that people wanted him to be a knight if he was de facto a war leader.

And we should also keep in mind that the whole knightly thing is not only warrior thing, but feudal thing, too. Landed knights most likely have to knight their heirs, or else they won't be 'landed knights' when their inherit the lands. Does this mean, by the way, that daughters cannot inherit the lands of a landed knight?