(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[RumHam]

There is no indication that any lord can knight people, if he is not a knight himself. And Robb wasn't, nor did he intend to become one.

And the Blackfish was certainly a notable knight, it should have been rather prestigious for Olyvar to be knighted by him.

But Robb was a king, not a lord. I'm not knocking the Blackfish, but I don't think he's that notable. I doubt people will remember him years after he's gone. (Unless he does something totally awesome in the future.)

Nope, Dayne didn't knight Jaime on the spot. Jaime remembered spending a night of vigil in a sept before he was knighted. Generally, it seems like it is better to be knighted by a famous knight, than merely by one that you have squired for. And as publicly as possible, of course.

He didn't knight him on the spot, but he was still knighted "on the battlefield" for feats of valor.

There were two tourneys between the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the start of the Rebellion (so about 1,5 years). One tourney in Storms End, one in Oldtown. Rhaegar seems to have been present at the Storms End one at least. Isn't it possible Gregor was knighted at one of those events?

Like how Barristan was knighted by King Aegon V during/after a Tourney.

Totally possibly, assuming they weren't knights only tourneys. Somehow it still seems more likely to me that he won his knighthood in battle, just because of who he is.

Edit: wow I forgot which thread this was, we've really gone off the rails.

[Maia]

But Robb was a king, not a lord.

When agreement re: Olyvar's eventual knighting was made, Robb was just a heir to Winterfell. Also, it is still not clear to me if non-martial kings, who were followers of the Faith could dub people without being knights themselves, or if they they got "courtesy knighted" despite not fulfilling the normal requirements and could knight people because of that.

Frankly, we just have Aerys's example from the Westerlands reading so far (when he was a crown prince) and even in that case, there appears to be some confusion and uncertainty. Not to mention, that young Aerys may have been somewhat more martial than he became later and it is not out of question that he could have been a proper knight. Average and knighted earlier than normal, but not very different from, say, Prince Quentyn.

I'm not knocking the Blackfish, but I don't think he's that notable.

Young Jaime thought that he was, and IIRC, the Blackfish was highly respected in Robb's host, and not just because he was a Tully. Very few people are so legendary that they are talked about long after they are dead. Doesn't mean that it isn't a honor to be knighted by them.

He didn't knight him on the spot, but he was still knighted "on the battlefield" for feats of valor.

Jaime was knighted for valor in battle, but not on the battlefield. He stood a night of vigil in a sept. Just like people knighted after the Battle of the Blackwater.

As to Gregor, from what we have seen, most tourneys are open to squires, or at least melee and archery events are. And yes, people do get knighted after showing their prowess in them, if they are old enough. Gregor was also of an age with Jaime, IIRC, also 17 at the sack of KL. So, he may have participated in the campaign against the Kingswood brotherhood. But as far as we know, Rhaegar didn't. So, it couldn't have been "on a battlefield" dubbing.

[RumHam]

When agreement re: Olyvar's eventual knighting was made, Robb was just a heir to Winterfell.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Young Jaime thought that he was, and IIRC, he the Blackfish highly respected in Robb's host, and not just because he was a Tully. Very few people are so legendary that they are talked about long after they are dead. Doesn't mean that it sn't a honor to be knighted by them.

I don't think Tully knighting him would be as prestigious as being knighted by a king or prince, regardless of their martial ability. I might be wrong on this. Anyway it's sorta a moot point since you pointed out Robb wasn't king at the time.

Jaime was knighted for valor in battle, but not on the battlefield. He stood a night of vigil in a sept. Just like people knighted after the Battle of the Blackwater.

As to Gregor, from what we have seen, most tourneys are open to squires, or at least melee and archery events are. And yes, people do get knighted after showing their prowess in them, if they are old enough. Gregor was also of an age with Jaime, IIRC, also 17 at the sack of KL. So, he may have participated in the campaign against the Kingswood brotherhood. But as far as we know, Rhaegar didn't. So, it couldn't have been "on a battlefield" dubbing.

I see the distinction you're trying to make, and I'm not sure if the post-Blackwater dubbings qualify as being "on the battlefield." However Jaime himself says he was knighted on the Battlefield.

At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I see the distinction you're trying to make, and I'm not sure if the post-Blackwater dubbings qualify as being "on the battlefield." However Jaime himself says he was knighted on the Battlefield.

But isn't it so that you say the vows, and then stand vigil in a sept?

Or is it the other way around? Because then my scenario doesn't work :p

[HexMachina]

So, in Elio and Linda's recent review of S04 E10, there was a 15 minute part at the end where they discuss the books, and Lord Bloodraven (who they seem quite the fans of :D). In the video they make mention of his being sent to the Wall with Aemon, and mention that Aegon V released him from the Black Cells when he became King. Is this just the way its worded making it seem like he was not at the Great Council?

[Bael's Bastard]

Maybe they are just stating what has previously been stated, and are not using material from the book, since it is not going to be released for over four months? Or perhaps he was only intended to be released temporarily to partake in the council, but when Aegon won he had him released and sent to the Wall? I admit, the thing about Bloodraven taking part in the council caught my off guard.

[HexMachina]

Maybe they are just stating what has previously been stated, and are not using material from the book, since it is not going to be released for over four months? Or perhaps he was only intended to be released temporarily to partake in the council, but when Aegon won he had him released and sent to the Wall? I admit, the thing about Bloodraven taking part in the council caught my off guard.

In the video they do.mention that we (the reader but not them) dont know why he was there so that could be it...I was hoping they would slip up and tell something :lol:

[Bael's Bastard]

It could be so much worse than four months, but I still can't wait. :D

[Ran]

I know, I know, oh oh oh.

[Lord Varys]

Have to watch the video soon, am occupied elsewhere. Perhaps Egg was pissed at becoming king...?

[History of Westeros]

Lord Brynden had a reputation for ruling through Aerys I etc, so I think it was crucial for Aegon V's administration to not have that same situation, especially given how he was "the Unlikely" and how he was nominated rather than being an heir who inherited. When there's an established heir, everyone has had time to get used to the idea of that Prince/Princess being on the Iron Throne eventually. Aegon came out of nowhere, so I suspect he was particularly vulnerable to rumor and questions of right to rule, strength, etc. He probably already had a reputation for being unusual, given his time slumming around with Dunk.

I suspect he was very popular with the commons, and very unpopular with many Lords. We know his reign was marked with turmoil, so this all adds up.

So everyone would assume it was Bloodraven calling the shots if he stuck around. Even if this is not true, or if Aegon was willing to accept that kind of talk, it is a reasonable fear for someone to complain about. Enough that someone powerful who hated Bloodraven could push the issue. Some Lords may have strongly objected to any sort of rule by Bloodraven, so sending him to the Wall may have been a political necessity.

[Toccs]

Or Bloodraven, while in the sensory depravation of the Black Cells, was visited by the 3 Eyed Raven and told he should head North.

[Lion of the West]

By the way is it just me or does Tywin's campaigns against the rarbecks and Reynes and the one against the Stark and Tullys look kind of similar in outline?

Rebellion

1. Tywin moves fast against the Tarbecks and knocks them out before anyone can interfiere

2. The Reynes arrives to help the Tarbecks but only to late and make an ill-fated attack to break throught, which is defeated ad they are broken when Tywin leads the counter-attack

3. The Reynes are destroyed by Tywin and the war is over

WoFK

1. Tywin moves fast and lets Jaime pretty much knock them out, with Edmure captured, the Riverlords scattered and Riverrun under siege, before anyone can interfiere

2. The Starks arrives in what seems to be to late with the Freys blocking one way and Tywin the other, Tywin march north face and defeat what he thinks is the Stark army which is broken when Tywin leads the counter-attack

3. Plan goes to hell and the Tullys are releived by the Starks

[RumHam]

Also, it is still not clear to me if non-martial kings, who were followers of the Faith could dub people without being knights themselves, or if they they got "courtesy knighted" despite not fulfilling the normal requirements and could knight people because of that.

I couldn't find this SSM back when we were debating this, but I just stumbled across it looking for something else so here it is:

To settle an old debate on EZBoard, any king can make a knight but any lord cannot. That lord must be a knight as well. So Baelor I could make knights but Eddard could not. George said the more important thing for kings is making lords. The problem is giving lands.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, that was the SSM I remembered from which I gained my deep insight knowledge that kings can make knights, even if they are no knights themselves.

But Aerys was not yet king during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. And thinking about the whole thing, perhaps Ran's remark that something was wrong with the Aerys/Tywin thing did not refer to the line that Aerys fought in the war, but to knighting itself? Could it be that Aziz/Ashaya got it wrong who knighted who? If that's the case then perhaps Aerys was knighted by Tywin, not Tywin by Aerys?

I guess it was a huge honor to be chosen to dub the Prince of Dragonstone a knight, and it would be a great display of the friendship between Aerys and Tywin if Aerys had chosen Tywin to make him a knight.

We'll have to wait and see.

[Toccs]

I thought that Tywin earned his own knighthood during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It would be a little out of place to have some teenager who just got his own knighthood be the one to knight the crown prince.

[sertravisredbeard]

As adept as we've seen Tywin be at achieving ends politically as well as strategic war planning, it's not too crazy to think he told Aerys or whowever else was in charge some good advice while they were at war. I know that wouldn't be enough by itself for him to get knighted, but it could have contributed if he also displayed a modest amount of warrior skills and courage in battle.

This makes me think of a similarity between the Aerys/Tywin and Robb/Theon relationships. Both grew up close (wasn't Tywin a youth companion of Aerys?) but the one of the lower end of the relationship ended up betraying and contributing to the destruction of the more nobly born one. Robb took Theon's advice seriously, only to have Theon betray him later. Tywin certainly advised Aerys for a long time before he sacked his seat and contributed to him ultimately losing the war and his life.

[Maia]

I couldn't find this SSM back when we were debating this, but I just stumbled across it looking for something else so here it is

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232

Thanks! That's very interesting. Particularly the part about tree-worshipping Kings in the North apparently being able to make knights too. Which is odd... But in any case, Robb wouldn't have been expected to be in position to knight Olyvar Frey himself, when he first took him on as a squire.

But the true bombshell is this:

"The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion."

Mwa-ha-ha! And some people are _so_ sure that Dany is going to fight Aegon and generally contribute to devastation of Westeros! While heroic Stannis and heroic northmen deal with the Others on their own, of course :).

This makes me think of a similarity between the Aerys/Tywin and Robb/Theon relationships. Both grew up close (wasn't Tywin a youth companion of Aerys?) but the one of the lower end of the relationship ended up betraying and contributing to the destruction of the more nobly born one. Robb took Theon's advice seriously, only to have Theon betray him later. Tywin certainly advised Aerys for a long time before he sacked his seat and contributed to him ultimately losing the war and his life.

Well, certainly both Tywin and Theon wanted to belong to Targaryen/Stark families via marriage. But otherwise, Theon betrayed Robb at the height of their friendship and the latters' trust, while It took lots of slights and mistreatment before Tywin turned on Aerys.

[MoIaF]

Thanks! That's very interesting. Particularly the part about tree-worshipping Kings in the North apparently being able to make knights too. Which is odd... But in any case, Robb wouldn't have been expected to be in position to knight Olyvar Frey himself, when he first took him on as a squire.

But the true bombshell is this:

"The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion."

Mwa-ha-ha! And some people are _so_ sure that Dany is going to fight Aegon and generally contribute to devastation of Westeros! While heroic Stannis and heroic northmen deal with the Others on their own, of course :).

Well, certainly both Tywin and Theon wanted to belong to Targaryen/Stark families via marriage. But otherwise, Theon betrayed Robb at the height of their friendship and the latters' trust, while It took lots of slights and mistreatment before Tywin turned on Aerys.

Well that's a revaluation. I've suspected for a while that it wouldn't be a simple Dany vs. Aegon in Westeros and this procides other considerations.

[Maia]

Well that's a revaluation. I've suspected for a while that it wouldn't be a simple Dany vs. Aegon in Westeros and this procides other considerations.

Yea, I have been quietly convinced for some time that Dany won't be involved in Second Dance at all, and that it will be a fairly perfunctory affair in any case.

Also, that some secret and plain obscure Targaryen descendants are going to come out of woodwork to provide the "dragon" component. Personally, I have grave suspicions about Lord Rosby's ward...

Anyway if I am right, there is going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth among certain parts of teadership, for sure.