(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Lord Varys]

The Manderlys claim the Mander was named after them. If that's the case, then they may also be First Men house, perhaps as old as the Hightowers.

[RumHam]

Yeah, but they only came north like a thousand years ago (and worship the seven) so they would have been Andalized.

[SerArthurHeath]

Do we know who was on the Great Council of 233?

Was it just Maekar's Small Council, or the Wardens or did Bloodraven summon the 8 Great Lords to King's Landing?

I assume this was already answered but Great Council is by definition in addition to the small council so there will have been extra people (probably the great lords) there

[Bael's Bastard]

I understand that the north was not conquered by the Andals, but even if northerners were more likely to marry northerners, there could still be marriages to Andals here and there, especially Andal women, no?

[RumHam]

I understand that the north was not conquered by the Andals, but even if northerners were more likely to marry northerners, there could still be marriages to Andals here and there, especially Andal women, no?

Yeah but nothing on the level of what went on in the south.

[Bael's Bastard]

Do we know where the Great Council of 233 was held?

I thought it was interesting to find out that the Great Council of 101 was held at Harrenhal in light of the whispers of Rhaegar using the Harrenhal tourney to plot with lords against Aerys, and the possible implications of his comment to Jaime about calling a council, making changes, and meaning to do it long ago prior to the Battle of the Trident.

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah but nothing on the level of what went on in the south.

Agreed. I suppose something could have been built to accommodate a wife that served the seven before, but I find it interesting that the current sept in Winterfell was only built in the last 17 years, for Catelyn.

[Lord Varys]

I'd be very surprised if the Kings in the North did not take brides from various 'Andalized Houses' in the South, to make alliances - for instance, against the Arryns during that century-long war against the Vale.

The Lannisters would be a very good match for this kind of thing, since both the North and the West suffered from the Ironborn attacks, and could also make common cause against the River Kings (whoever ruled the Riverlands at the time of their alliance).

In that sense, the Starks - and many other Northern houses - should be nearly as Andalish as the so-called Andals themselves. Especially since most Andal houses would have also married First Men daughters, so they would also no longer be pure-blooded Andals.

The only difference between the South and the North seems to be the fact that Andal Faith was never established there. Pretty much everything else was.

[Jaak]

The claim that Lann was supposed to an Andal adventurer, was always at odds with the broad strokes of Westerosi history. He is a character from the Age of Heroes, which, according to common belief, occurred thousands of years before the Andal Invasion, even before the Long Night.

But it would make to sense to try claim that Lann may have been an Andal if 1. the blond hair is common among the Andals, and 2. the Andal dominated high culture of southern Westeros tried to make Andals appear more important/influential etc. than they were originally in history.

Did "Age of Heroes" end before the Long Night by definition, and Lann live before Long Night?

IF that was the case, you could have expected the story and name of the Lannister ruler who survived the Long Night, and how Casterly Rock and the fugitives under it stayed warm and fed and safe from Others and wights.

If there is none then the reason could be that Lann lived and operated after Long Night, so the line of Lannisters after him did not deal with Long Night.

Also: Lann seized Casterly Rock armed with nothing but his wits. The various stories - marrying a Casterly daughter, creeping into Casterly Rock and feeding Casterlies to lions, frightening them that the castle was haunted, etc., are stories of a lone adventurer who did not have an army along with him... or witnesses from home. So if, for example, Lann had come from Vale and Vale was known to have been conquered by Andals at that time, it does not follow that Lann the Golden was an Andal. He may have been an Andal retainer of House Arryn, or a First Man retainer of Royce, or a Clansman of Mountains of Moon - nobody in Westerlands knew his actual family in Vale, and he never told. But if he was a foreign adventurer then he may have been neither First Man nor Andal but from somewhere beyond - a Rhoynar, or a Valyrian, or a Ghiscari or a Qartheen.

But he did not bring a retinue along - and did not bring any septons along either. Even if he had worshipped Seven back home in Vale or in Andalos, once established in Casterly Rock he worshipped the Old Gods of local First Men and shut up about whatever gods he may have had back home.

[Frey family reunion]

Did "Age of Heroes" end before the Long Night by definition, and Lann live before Long Night?

IF that was the case, you could have expected the story and name of the Lannister ruler who survived the Long Night, and how Casterly Rock and the fugitives under it stayed warm and fed and safe from Others and wights.

If there is none then the reason could be that Lann lived and operated after Long Night, so the line of Lannisters after him did not deal with Long Night.

Also: Lann seized Casterly Rock armed with nothing but his wits. The various stories - marrying a Casterly daughter, creeping into Casterly Rock and feeding Casterlies to lions, frightening them that the castle was haunted, etc., are stories of a lone adventurer who did not have an army along with him... or witnesses from home. So if, for example, Lann had come from Vale and Vale was known to have been conquered by Andals at that time, it does not follow that Lann the Golden was an Andal. He may have been an Andal retainer of House Arryn, or a First Man retainer of Royce, or a Clansman of Mountains of Moon - nobody in Westerlands knew his actual family in Vale, and he never told. But if he was a foreign adventurer then he may have been neither First Man nor Andal but from somewhere beyond - a Rhoynar, or a Valyrian, or a Ghiscari or a Qartheen.

But he did not bring a retinue along - and did not bring any septons along either. Even if he had worshipped Seven back home in Vale or in Andalos, once established in Casterly Rock he worshipped the Old Gods of local First Men and shut up about whatever gods he may have had back home.

Could he have been an exiled descendant of the last Griffin King?

[Lion of the West]

I would think that Lann was most likely a First Man due to him arriving in the Westerlands centuries before any other Andals and also showing no connection with Andal culture whatsoever. The only possible idea that he could be an Andal would be his blond hair but since there are blond people north of the Wall as well I would think that the color of hair don't really tell much.

[RumHam]

I'd be very surprised if the Kings in the North did not take brides from various 'Andalized Houses' in the South, to make alliances - for instance, against the Arryns during that century-long war against the Vale.

The Lannisters would be a very good match for this kind of thing, since both the North and the West suffered from the Ironborn attacks, and could also make common cause against the River Kings (whoever ruled the Riverlands at the time of their alliance).

In that sense, the Starks - and many other Northern houses - should be nearly as Andalish as the so-called Andals themselves. Especially since most Andal houses would have also married First Men daughters, so they would also no longer be pure-blooded Andals.

The only difference between the South and the North seems to be the fact that Andal Faith was never established there. Pretty much everything else was.

I dunno about that. I know the fact that the Starks are different and "the blood of the First Men still runs through their veins" comes up a few times. (they still execute people themselves, for example) Anyway maybe we should start another thread instead of derailing this one.

I would think that Lann was most likely a First Man due to him arriving in the Westerlands centuries before any other Andals and also showing no connection with Andal culture whatsoever. The only possible idea that he could be an Andal would be his blond hair but since there are blond people north of the Wall as well I would think that the color of hair don't really tell much.

Personally I would think that Lann most likely never existed...

[Lord Annaly]

The claim that Lann was supposed to an Andal adventurer, was always at odds with the broad strokes of Westerosi history. He is a character from the Age of Heroes, which, according to common belief, occurred thousands of years before the Andal Invasion, even before the Long Night.

But it would make to sense to try claim that Lann may have been an Andal if 1. the blond hair is common among the Andals, and 2. the Andal dominated high culture of southern Westeros tried to make Andals appear more important/influential etc. than they were originally in history.

Yeah exactly, the Age of Heros is said to pre-date the Andal invasion yet a lot of the myths, stories & ballads told of then and the great persons of the era are very Andalised. The story of Ser Serrwyn of the Mirror is a case in point. In this story that is supposed to be from the AoH has a knight before the chivarlic tradition had arrived in Westeros, this knight is said to have been a kingsguard which seems to be a very recent Order (post-Conquest), and this kingsguard knight was saving a princess with a very Valyrian/Targaryen name, Daeryssa. And the dragon he slew had a name, Urrax, which would hint that it was not an indigenous wild dragon.

Basically all the Age of Heros legends seem to be have been written or created thousands of years after the fact with composite histories to show favourably on the lordly Houses millenia later.

[RumHam]

Yeah exactly, the Age of Heros is said to pre-date the Andal invasion yet a lot of the myths, stories & ballads told of then and the great persons of the era are very Andalised. The story of Ser Serrwyn of the Mirror is a case in point. In this story that is supposed to be from the AoH has a knight before the chivarlic tradition had arrived in Westeros, this knight is said to have been a kingsguard which seems to be a very recent Order (post-Conquest), and this kingsguard knight was saving a princess with a very Valyrian/Targaryen name, Daeryssa. And the dragon he slew had a name, Urrax, which would hint that it was not an indigenous wild dragon.

Basically all the Age of Heros legends seem to be have been written or created thousands of years after the fact with composite histories to show favourably on the lordly Houses millenia later.

Actually I remember checking the books, there's nothing to indicate that Serwyn was from the Age of Heroes. Except possibly that he battled giants, but we know that giants are still around.

[Bael's Bastard]

And even if Lann did exist, or a basis for him did, stuff like blonde hair and the name Lann could be projected back onto him by later propaganda.

[illrede]

Yeah but nothing on the level of what went on in the south.

It was probably just imperceptible in rate. Then you stand a Year 300 Stark up against a Year 300 Thenn and go "huh".

[Lion of the West]

I dunno about that. I know the fact that the Starks are different and "the blood of the First Men still runs through their veins" comes up a few times. (they still execute people themselves, for example) Anyway maybe we should start another thread instead of derailing this one.

Personally I would think that Lann most likely never existed...

I agree entirely but decided to not open with it since it tends to kill alot of the exictment with myths.

[Dofs]

Age of Heroes was apparently thousand of years before Andal invasion so it's pretty a stretch that he was a lone Andal that somehow appeared on the Sunset sea cost. Really, Lann's backstory is just guessing, nobody knows from where he appeared and who he was and nobody will know. For all means and purposes he was a First Man. Blond hair means nothing. Val is blond and she has arguably a pure First Men blood. And it does not matter anyway. I agree, Lann may have not even existed. What matters is that in the reading it is said that Andals never managed to conquer Westerlands and were just allowed to settle there by the kings of the Westerlands while intermarrying in the process. Thus, the current Lannisters should be the same house that existed before Andals had come.

The first Andals to arrive saw a bloody end by King Tybolt Thunderbolt.

However, the Westerlands became worn down by the arriving Andals, and Tyrion III and Gerold II saw that they would be doomed, so they married some Andals and gave lands and wives to them. They also took young Andals as wards/hostages.

Thus, many young men were turned from foes to friends. It was said that their blood ran gold.

Houses with Andal roots mentioned: Jast, Lefford, Drox, Brax, Serrett, Sarsfield, Marbrand. Also named were House Kindle (Kindel? no prior mention of this house, so unsure of spelling) and Stackspear (unsure, went by memory with Stackspear).

This contradicts the previous Lann's female descendant's origin. Sure, there is a chance that it's Lannister propaganda, but what's the point for George to publish a history full of bullshit?

[Lion of the West]

Age of Heroes was apparently thousand of years before Andal invasion so it's pretty a stretch that he was a lone Andal that somehow appeared on the Sunset sea cost. Really, Lann's backstory is just guessing, nobody knows from where he appeared and who he was and nobody will know. For all means and purposes he was a First Man. Blond hair means nothing. Val is blond and she has arguably a pure First Men blood. And it does not matter anyway. I agree, Lann may have not even existed. What matters is that in the reading it is said that Andals never managed to conquer Westerlands and were just allowed to settle there by the kings of the Westerlands while intermarrying in the process. Thus, the current Lannisters should be the same house that existed before Andals had come.

The first Andals to arrive saw a bloody end by King Tybolt Thunderbolt.

However, the Westerlands became worn down by the arriving Andals, and Tyrion III and Gerold II saw that they would be doomed, so they married some Andals and gave lands and wives to them. They also took young Andals as wards/hostages.

Thus, many young men were turned from foes to friends. It was said that their blood ran gold.

Houses with Andal roots mentioned: Jast, Lefford, Drox, Brax, Serrett, Sarsfield, Marbrand. Also named were House Kindle (Kindel? no prior mention of this house, so unsure of spelling) and Stackspear (unsure, went by memory with Stackspear).

This contradicts the previous Lann's female descendant's origin. Sure, there is a chance that it's Lannister propaganda, but what's the point for George to publish a history full of bullshit?

I think its about GRRM changing his mind rather than anything else. Or maybe well learn some details that some lord Lannister had no male children, so the children of one of his daughters inherited after him, took the name Lannister and things went on as it were.

[Lord Annaly]

"but what's the point for George to publish a history full of bullshit?"

Is that not GRRM's whole thing..the unreliability of history and those who record it. Everything he writes about rests on the Unreliable Narrator and the Victor Writes the History.