Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

KCenturion

(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

Recommended Posts

When I came up with my claim that 'Aerys fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings', I got carried away by the fact that Prince Aerys was actually there. I didn't really expect that. I never imagined Aerys in any war-like situation whatsoever.



By this time, Aerys was Prince of Dragonstone (i.e. he had a seat of his own) - and was also possibly a knight 'by courtesy' - so he could really have knighted people (we already know that kings can make knights even if they are not knights themselves, and this may also be true about the Prince of Dragonstone). Tywin being his squire would have been a huge honor, despite the fact that they were of the same age. He was the Prince of Dragonstone, after all.



That said, Tywin spending much of his youth in KL, in the care of Aegon V (possibly Jaehaerys II) and as friend of Aerys, Kevan thinking that Aerys would recall Tywin after the Battle of the Bells and Connington's exile, may indicate that Tywin had no intention of joining the Rebellion until after the Trident. And it's also possible that Tywin was also suffering very much from the Ellyn-Barbrey-syndrom ('I want so desperately be part of that family, that I'll turn against them, if they don't accept me').



Think about it, he lived at court Egg's court, possibly knew some of his other grandchildren besides Rhaella and Aerys. His wish to marry Cersei to Rhaegar may have come from the fact that he wanted to marry a Targaryen princess, but couldn't, because Aerys had only one sister, and other granddaughters of Egg's may have disappeared/died at Summerhall.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM confirmed that kings can knight people, even if they are not knights themselves. Of the Targaryen kings, I guess Aenys, Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, Aegon III, Baelor I, Daeron II, Aerys I, Jaehaerys II, and Aerys II may not have been knights (not so sure about Viserys II and Aegon IV). Although it's also very likely that many of these were still knighted by courtesy.



Up to this day, we still don't know if Stannis is a knight. He could be, if he's not, he either still had the authority to make Davos a knight, or another knight did it in Stannis' stead.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or any kings, for that matter? I thought that kings who weren't themselves knights had KG or other notable knights in their service do the dubbing.

Also, if Aerys was only a "knight by courtesy" and didn't participate in the fighting, then him knighting Tywin wasn't such a great thing for Tywin. It made it look unearned, a favor between friends. Maybe it was another reason why Reynes and Tarbecks didn't take Tywin as seriously as they should have, when he returned home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I had missed that statement from GRRM.



As to Stannis, doesn't Davos mention specifically that Stannis had knighted him? Stannis wouldn't have been able to do so if he hadn't been a knight himself. Davos wanted Stannis to cut the fingers tips off himself, so I'd say it would have been important to Davos that Stannis had done the knighting himself as well, right?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The phrase 'knighted by courtesy' is not supposed to be 'Lord by courtesy' (i.e. Varys and Qyburn, who are called 'Lord', but don't actually own any lands).



Rather, that they were knighted because they were princes despite the fact that they did not actually excel at the at arms. So, if they weren't princes/kings no one would ever have knighted them, but they got knighted because it looked better and people following them wanted it to be that way.



To be knighted by a king/prince should always be a great honor, especially if said king did not knight other people on a regular basis. Think about it, Rhaegar knighted Gregor Clegane - it's more than fitting (one could even say expected) that Aerys would knight Tywin...



Stannis did the punishment stuff personally, just like a First Man would, with a cleaver to make it cleaner, but it's nowhere stated, at least not as far as I remember, that Stannis himself did the knighting.



I'd still Aerys leading the forces of the Iron Throne on the Stepstones, either from behind the lands, or from horseback/litter. But the picture of Aerys actually participating in the fighting is wrong.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before Lord Stannis had knighted him, he had been the most notorious and elusive smuggler in all the Seven Kingdoms.

That doesn't count?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I stand corrected. Stannis is the greatest knight that ever was, anyway. He doesn't have to ride in a tourney to prove that...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that Gregor was a knight. I just found the irony priceless - Aerys knights Tywin, and Rhaegar knights Gregor. I'm pretty sure this was the case. Either Aerys was a knight himself at this time (not unlikely - Jaehaerys could have knighted him, when he ascended the Iron Throne), or Aerys knighted Tywin after his father's death upon his own ascension to the Iron Throne.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either Aerys was a knight himself at this time (not unlikely - Jaehaerys could have knighted him, when he ascended the Iron Throne), or Aerys knighted Tywin after his father's death upon his own ascension to the Iron Throne.

Well, the reading revealed that Tywin was already a knight at 19, when he eradicated Tarbecks and Reynes. And that it was during the reign of Jahaerys the Second.

Practically speaking, given Tywin's social position, he would have been knighted at 18 at the latest, IMHO, even if his martial abilities were average and at the time of peace.

Being knighted by Rhaegar was a honor, but Rhaegar was a proper knight, not a courtesy one. I guess that Rhaegar must have knighted a bunch of westerners as a favor to Tywin, and Gregor happened to be one of them?

BTW, where did GRRM say that kings could knight people without being knights themselves? Is it in the App?

Oh, and why the doubts re: Stannis's status? From what we have seen, all somewhat martial southern nobles are knights. IIRC, for some reason, people have been doubting Tywin's knighthood too, in the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, where did GRRM say that kings could knight people without being knights themselves? Is it in the App?

I don't know of a SSM, but that is definitely the case. Robb's deal with the Freys requires him to take a Frey squire and knight him within a reasonable amount of time.

Oh, and why the doubts re: Stannis's status? From what we have seen, all somewhat martial southern nobles are knights. IIRC, for some reason, people have been doubting Tywin's knighthood too, in the past.

Yeah. There was also a thread recently questioning Robert's knighthood. I used to think all southern lords would be knighted at least as a courtesy. I think Tytos is the first one we hear about who definitely isn't, but I might be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Littlefinger isn't a knight, but a lord. Lord Florent's heir Alekyne isn't a knight either. I think there's an ambivalence about knighting people undeservedly that most families feel in Westeros feel, which prevent them from putting themselves up for ridicule by pushing for the advancement of someone who isn't suited. (Not all families, necessarily.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robb's deal with the Freys requires him to take a Frey squire and knight him within a reasonable amount of time.

It didn't sound to me like Robb was supposed to dub Olyvar himself. He had some notable knights in his service, who could have done it, after all.

And until now we have never heard about Aerys personally knighting anybody. Rhaegar did, but then, he was a proper knight himself.

I used to think all southern lords would be knighted at least as a courtesy. I think Tytos is the first one we hear about who definitely isn't, but I might be wrong.

I used to think the opposite - namely, that pure courtesy knightings didn't happen even for the royal family and that kings, who weren't themselves knights, just had KG doing the honors. After all, even Daeron the Drunken was supposed to participate in tourneys and such, so he must have had the training, for all the good it did him. But now it seems that courtesy knightings did happen, after all.

How do we know this, BTW? Is it in SSM or in the World book?

And, as Ran points out, we had Lord Baelish as an example of a lord, who wasn't knighted. Also, Alekyne Florent and Willas Tyrell as examples of adult heirs to lordships, who weren't knighted. BTW, is there any info as to what is the deal with Alekyne? I mean, all other men in his family are/were knighted and he is no third son, suddenly come into prominence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It didn't sound to me like Robb was supposed to dub Olyvar himself. He had some notable knights in his service, who could have done it, after all.

And until now we have never heard about Aerys personally knighting anybody. Rhaegar did, but then, he was a proper knight himself.

I used to think the opposite - namely, that pure courtesy knightings didn't happen even for the royal family and that kings, who weren't themselves knights, just had KG doing the honors. After all, even Daeron the Drunken was supposed to participate in tourneys and such, so he must have had the training, for all the good it did him. But now it seems that courtesy knightings did happen, after all.

How do we know this, BTW? Is it in SSM or in the World book?

And, as Ran points out, we had Lord Baelish as an example of a lord, who wasn't knighted. Also, Alekyne Florent and Willas Tyrell as examples of adult heirs to lordships, who weren't knighted. BTW, is there any info as to what is the deal with Alekyne? I mean, all other men in his family are/were knighted and he is no first son, suddenly come into prominence.

It should be noted that Willas was trying for knighthood.. but due to his accident, couldn't continue that training.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It didn't sound to me like Robb was supposed to dub Olyvar himself. He had some notable knights in his service, who could have done it, after all.

Isn't the normal procedure that you squire for someone and then they knight you? But yeah I guess I was making an assumption there, that Walder was angling for the extra prestige in being knighted by a king.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×