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KCenturion

(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

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Isn't the normal procedure that you squire for someone and then they knight you? But yeah I guess I was making an assumption there, that Walder was angling for the extra prestige in being knighted by a king.

There are some knights among the Northerners like the Manderlys, Ser Helman Tallhart or Ser Rodrik Cassel. I always thought, that Robb would be knighted by one of his fellow Northerners or one knight from the Riverlands and then knight Olyvar himself.

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As Ran has pointed out, there are those lords who push their sons to become knights, and others do not. There are certainly princes and kings unsuited for the knightly stuff, but whether they were knighted (forced to be become a knight, rather) would depend on their fathers. For instance, I imagine that Daeron II did not push Aerys and Rhaegel to become knights and participate in tourneys and such. On the other hand, Prince Maekar did force all his sons to do exactly that. At Ashford, Aerion and Daeron most certainly were already knights.



I can easily see Aerys II being knighted when the preparation for the war began. It seems that he was House Targaryen's representative on the Stepstones (that is, if Jaehaerys did stay at home, which I assume he did). So technically Aerys would have had the supreme command of the Iron Throne's forces, and it's easily imaginable that people wanted him to be a knight if he was de facto a war leader.



And we should also keep in mind that the whole knightly thing is not only warrior thing, but feudal thing, too. Landed knights most likely have to knight their heirs, or else they won't be 'landed knights' when their inherit the lands. Does this mean, by the way, that daughters cannot inherit the lands of a landed knight?


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Isn't the normal procedure that you squire for someone and then they knight you? But yeah I guess I was making an assumption there, that Walder was angling for the extra prestige in being knighted by a king.

Jaime squired for Lord Crakehall, but he was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne.

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Ser Gregor Clegane didn't squire for Rhaegar either, I am sure. It seems to me that it is more prestigious to be knighted by a famous knight, whether he is the one you have squired for or not.

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Jaime squired for Lord Crakehall, but he was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Gregor Clegane didn't squire for Rhaegar either, I am sure. It seems to me that it is more prestigious to be knighted by a famous knight, whether he is the one you have squired for or not.

True, still Jamie we know was knighted "on the battlefield" for feats of valor, I would assume the same for Clegane. It's easier to imagine Gregor earning his knighthood because he preformed amazingly in battle than for any other reason.

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Just for fun, let's try to think of other Lords/Kings who were definitely not knights.



First one to come to mind that hasn't been already suggested is Janos Slynt.



I am going to guess Aegon IV was knighted, as he was supposedly a decent fighter before he became all fat and corrupt. That's from memory though and I could be wrong. Some of that might be from the MUSH, but Ran/Linda are always very good at not going too far with those sorts of details, so I tend to trust it like it's almost canon.



("Ser" Duncan the Tall doesn't count since he's not a Lord/King but I like to throw that out there, hah)



I wonder if Doran Martell was ever knighted.

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True, still Jamie we know was knighted "on the battlefield" for feats of valor, I would assume the same for Clegane. It's easier to imagine Gregor earning his knighthood because he preformed amazingly in battle than for any other reason.

But which battle?

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Like Alekyne, Patrek Mallister is an heir but not a knight either but he was one of Robb's bodyguards during the Whispering Wood/Camps so he clearly wasn't a wimp or a nerd.


Hallyne is another landless Lord.

Larys 'Clubfoot' Strong was probably not a knight before becoming Lord of Harrenhal or Whispers.

Other than the semi/non-canon Hedge Knight graphic novel tourney rolls, no Blackwoods are stated to be knights or knighted. From what I remember, that includes Bloodraven aswell. He is only referred to as Lord Bloodraven in D&E.

Maybe the Master of Whispers is meant to be a landless lord? Larys, Varys and Qyburn all fit that criteria. While Bloodraven's position as MoW on Daeron II's council has been brought to question because of Ran's comments, he would fit the mold aswell. Nymeria Sand was probably going to take the position if Kevan lived to welcome her in so she could have fit this possible criteria aswell.

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Most of the people there are questions about seem to have or claim titles superior to "ser," so it makes sense they aren't referred to as ser. But we don't really know if they are knights or not, and people seem to speculate how they hope the case to be, which doesn't amount to anything.

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But which battle?

I dunno, but it could have been something like the Kingswood Brotherhood situation. Something about enforcing the law rather than a war. There's always conflict somewhere right?

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I wonder if Doran Martell was ever knighted.

“I was the oldest,” the prince said, “and yet I am the last. After Mors and Olyvar died in their cradles, I gave up hope of brothers. I was nine when Elia came, a squire in service at Salt Shore. When the raven arrived with word that my mother had been brought to bed a month too soon, I was old enough to understand that meant the child would not live. Even when Lord Gargalen told me that I had a sister, I assured him that she must shortly die. Yet she lived, by the Mother’s mercy. And a year later Oberyn arrived, squalling and kicking. I was a man grown when they were playing in these pools. Yet here I sit, and they are gone."

He squired for Lord Gargalen. I think he was knighted as well.

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I dunno, but it could have been something like the Kingswood Brotherhood situation. Something about enforcing the law rather than a war. There's always conflict somewhere right?

Most time. But the goal of king is supposed to be King´s Peace, and no conflict, and if conflicts break out then quickly suppressed with small forces. Peacetime makes nobles bored and restless, but are they supposed to go without knighthood?

I suggest that people can be and are knighted based on tournament performances. The battle-tested people may look down on "summer knights", but they are valid knights, legally entitled to be called "ser" and to dub others knight.

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I dunno, but it could have been something like the Kingswood Brotherhood situation. Something about enforcing the law rather than a war. There's always conflict somewhere right?

Actually I think that it was Jaime's performance during the fight against the outlaws, that convinced Ser Arthur that he has to be knighted.

And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he’d performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner’s life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he’d held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him.

Performing those deeds were notable accomplishments for a young squire.

Then Merret feels that he failed to do something notable during the time he was a squire, therefore ruining his chances of becoming a knight.

In the last ten years he had grown soft and fleshy, he knew, but when he’d been younger Merrett had been almost as robust as Ser Hosteen, his eldest full brother, who was commonly regarded as the strongest of Lord Walder Frey’s brood. As a boy he’d been packed off to Crakehall to serve his mother’s family as a page. When old Lord Sumner had made him a squire, everyone had assumed he would be Ser Merrett in no more than a few years, but the outlaws of the Kingswood Brotherhood had pissed on those plans. While his fellow squire Jaime Lannister was covering himself in glory, Merrett had first caught the pox from a camp follower, then managed to get captured by a woman, the one called the White Fawn. Lord Sumner had ransomed him back from the outlaws, but in the very next fight he’d been felled by a blow from a mace that had broken his helm and left him insensible for a fortnight. Everyone gave him up for dead, they told him later.

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For Olyvar, it seems evident that Robb was going to knight him himself. I guess being squiring and being knighted by the Lord of Winterfell gives more prestige than being knighted by a proper knight such as Ser Helman Tallhart or Ser Wylis Manderly.



And for Jaime, it was his prowess in battle that made ser Arthur knight him on the spot


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Most time. But the goal of king is supposed to be King´s Peace, and no conflict, and if conflicts break out then quickly suppressed with small forces. Peacetime makes nobles bored and restless, but are they supposed to go without knighthood?

I suggest that people can be and are knighted based on tournament performances. The battle-tested people may look down on "summer knights", but they are valid knights, legally entitled to be called "ser" and to dub others knight.

I didn't mean to suggest that knights are only made in times of conflict, just that conflict allows opportunities for people who are good at fighting to get knighted on the battlefield. Otherwise you have to prove yourself with years of faithful squiring.

Actually I think that it was Jaime's performance during the fight against the outlaws, that convinced Ser Arthur that he has to be knighted.

And for Jaime, it was his prowess in battle that made ser Arthur knight him on the spot

Right. That was what I was trying to say, that Jamie and Gregor may have circumvented the "serve as a squire to somebody and then get knighted by them" system that way.

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Doh. Who cares about who knights who? Seriously ppl :stillsick:

You're right, we'd better get back to all the important conversations we normally have around here.

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You're right, we'd better get back to all the important conversations we normally have around here.

Exactly.

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“I was the oldest,” the prince said, “and yet I am the last. After Mors and Olyvar died in their cradles, I gave up hope of brothers. I was nine when Elia came, a squire in service at Salt Shore. When the raven arrived with word that my mother had been brought to bed a month too soon, I was old enough to understand that meant the child would not live. Even when Lord Gargalen told me that I had a sister, I assured him that she must shortly die. Yet she lived, by the Mother’s mercy. And a year later Oberyn arrived, squalling and kicking. I was a man grown when they were playing in these pools. Yet here I sit, and they are gone."

He squired for Lord Gargalen. I think he was knighted as well.

Yeah you're right, nice find. I doubt he remained a squire.

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I guess being squiring and being knighted by the Lord of Winterfell gives more prestige than being knighted by a proper knight such as Ser Helman Tallhart or Ser Wylis Manderly.

There is no indication that any lord can knight people, if he is not a knight himself. And Robb wasn't, nor did he intend to become one.

And the Blackfish was certainly a notable knight, it should have been rather prestigious for Olyvar to be knighted by him.

And for Jaime, it was his prowess in battle that made ser Arthur knight him on the spot

Nope, Dayne didn't knight Jaime on the spot. Jaime remembered spending a night of vigil in a sept before he was knighted. Generally, it seems like it is better to be knighted by a famous knight, than merely by one that you have squired for. And as publicly as possible, of course.

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