(Spoilers) The History of the Westerlands

[Fat Mac]

It never said if the Lannisters are a First Men House but it did say that Lann was rumored to be an Andel, or did I miss it somewhere

And Tytos sounded like a really mellow person he laughed with the people making a fool out of him. Also Tywin does not sound like a person who would hit someone so that rumor that he hit Tytos I can believe because it must have been very frustrating watching his family and father be laughed at and used.

I was more of thinking at how Tybolt Thunderbolt beat back the first Andals. Even if Lann was an Andal, he married ad had offspring with First Men houses.

[The Wolves]

I was more of thinking at how Tybolt Thunderbolt beat back the first Andals. Even if Lann was an Andal, he married ad had offspring with First Men houses.

Okay

[Elkrider]

On the con thread it was mentioned that Ellyn Reyne was trying real hard to be a Lannister but failed.

In this respect, she reminds me of Barbrey Dustin nee Ryswell, who also wanted to marry into the local Lord Paramount family, with somewhat less success. They both seem like ambitious, driven women, who ended up ruling their husbands' Houses. They both end up in antagonistic positions to that LP House because of the failed romances, and use their House's strength against the LPs.

I wonder if aspects of Ellyn Reyne could be used to figure out what the heck Lady Dustin is up to. Does the rebellion of the Tarbecks foreshadow Barbrey being on the Bolton's side (as they have risen up against the Starks) or her eventually taking the Stark's side as part of the GNC, as some people have theorized (and rising up agains the Bolton's who are technically the LP House right now)?

Other possible similarities--fertility issues--Ellyn had no children with her Lannister husband, Barbrey has no children. I'm kinda iffy on this one, since Ellyn did have lots of Tarbeck kids.

[sertravisredbeard]

Now I want to know more about a character I'd halfway forgotten about, Rohanne Webber. Seriously, how many other wives of Lords Paramount have just "disappeared" with apparently no clue as to what happened to them? I hope she ran off to become Dunk's paramour in King's Landing.

Also, I hope the histories of the other regions are as detailed as this one, especially the Riverlands. From what we've already seen of the main series and the Princess and the Queen, it just gets used and abused every time any is pissed at someone else. I wonder how many houses from risen and fallen from that region alone.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So that confirms Joanna and Stafford are first cousins of Tywin. :)

Tyland became the hand to Aegon III. People thought that he would be weak, but he was not. He died of winter fever in 133 AC, two years after the war. (this is what Rhaegar would later die of, hah)

Rhaegar? Which Rhaegar? Not Rhaegar Targaryen. Did I miss one?

[Mithras]

The Grey Lion’s son Lord Tybolt Lannister did not live long, and had no male heir of his body, just a three year old daughter named Sarelle (unsure of spelling, but this one is likely) when he died.

Gerold the Golden, Tybolt’s brother, became regent, only for Sarelle to die in 212. It was whispered that he murdered Sarelle, and also rumored that he had murdered Tybolt.

Gerold was an able lord, genial and clever. He ruled for 31 years, but there was no love for him, as he was still hated as a rumored kinslayer. People said that the tragedies he faced were proof enough that he was indeed a kinslayer. In 230 AC, Gerold lost his beloved second wife, Rohanne, who simply vanished, and some of his sons within the year’s span. (some confusion in our notes on how many sons he had, but he definitely lost at least one here)

Was this Rohanne the Red Widow from the TSS? We know that Gerold did want to marry her to get her lands. Eustace was an old man and I do not expect him to live long after marrying Rohanne. I think it is possible that Gerold married Rohanne after Eustace died (or killed by Rohanne) and they killed Tybolt and his daughter to have the Rock. I always suspected the rumors about her to be dealing with sorcery to be true and the latest information revealed might give basis to these suspicions.

[Hardstone]

So Genna is now 9, not 7, when she was betrothed to Emmon Frey?

When Viserys I ascended, he made Jason’s twin brother Tyland his master of ships.

Does this mean at some point during his reign? Because Tyland would have been a boy in 103AC!

Adrian Tarbeck was caught between three armies and crushed.

So was he part of Lord Lefford's army during the Battle by the Lakeshore?


Great write-up guys. Hats off! (I usually wear a hat.)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This also seems to indicate that Lord Tybolt and Lady Sarelle, Tybolts daughter, died in the same year, and Gerold was regent for only a short time, before becoming Lord in his own right. Tybolt is still alive and Lord of Casterly Rock during the Mystery Knight.

And is the change in Genna's age certain? From 7 to 9 when she got betrothed?

[ashayatara]

Rhaegar? Which Rhaegar? Not Rhaegar Targaryen. Did I miss one?

A joke, heh, based on the term 'jungle fever'. 'Winter fever' refers to Lyanna. :P

Re: Genna, that is indeed the age he said.

[Maia]

Thanks, Ashayatara! So, I have to revise my opinion on Ellyn Reyne. She was rather dumb, IMHO. With a heir like Tywin ready to take over, she and her associates really shouldn't have gone beyond the pale like they did. If anything happened to Tytos - which was always a distinct possibility, since his family must have been greatly tempted to off him and people die of natural causes all the time too, they'd have been immediately faced with a strong paramount who had military experience and hated their guts. Nor did Reynes and Tarbecks seem to have allies - in fact they appear to have alienated their neighbors.

This whole situation explains much about Kevan too - how, despite being a very capable man himself, he never stood up to and checked Tywin when the latter went overboard, like he should have. How he was relatively warm to Tyrion, but never tried to protect him against against his father.

I have speculated in the past that Tywin must have been partly raised at court, and it turns out that I was right. Egg's commoner-friendly attitudes didn't rub off on him though, on the contrary, it seems that he learned quite different lessons from the Duncan the Small debacle.

I have to give Tywin props for not offing his old man despite what must have been an unbearable temptation. IMHO, this shows that he was not really a sociopath.

And situation in the West was dire indeed, with Ironborn raids, lords switching allegiance to other regions, while Tarbecks and Reynes built up a rival power with Lannister money. There must have been a constant level of low-level bloodshed going on.

So, Rohanne Webber? I have speculated in the past, after we have heard about a "surprising ancestor" that it might be her, but I thought that she must have arranged a match between Tytos and her daughter, with the help of Ser Gerold. Well, it must have been a love match, for Lord of Casterly Rock to marry a woman five times a widow (!), none of whose husbands lived long after marrying her and not really young anymore by Westerosi standards. Could it be that all 4 of his sons were from her? This doesn't seem likely, IMHO, even if she had children who lived by Ser Eustace. But if it was a happy marriage, why did she vanish?

I don't believe that Gerold killed his niece either - he could have married her to his son if/once he had any or waited and married her himself. Killing a girl heir makes zero sense in his situation and young children die all the time in Westeros.

So, who were the widows killed at Tarbeck Hall, apart from Ellyn herself, who richly deserved her execution? Those of Tarbecks' elder sons by the previous 2 wives? Wouldn't it have unnecessarily provoked enmity of their families? And why were they killed and not forced to join the Silent Sisters, like Ellyn's daughters? Or were they from really insignificant Houses, given that Tarbecks were poor and weak before Tytos's ascension? Why was a son of Ellyn's daughter the last Lord Tarbeck? Didn't his older children have children of their own, or were all of their corpses accounted for, while his wasn't?

BTW, this sad story provides an alternative theory for the state of Tywin's corpse - maybe it was revenge from one of Ellyn's daughters, who had survived and was involved in preparation of Tywin's body for lying in state?

And now for something completely different - how on earth did Peakes survive to the present day? It seems that they have been rebelling against the Crown on a regular basis.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A joke, heh, based on the term 'jungle fever'. 'Winter fever' refers to Lyanna. :P

Re: Genna, that is indeed the age he said.

Ahh.. I get it. :p

So Genna was 9, Tywin 10, Emmon 14? Alright, let's see what years of birth through calculations roll out now for all of them ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Okay, quick calculation.

Tywin's birth remains in 242AC

Genna was born in either 243AC or 244AC

Kevan was born in either 244AC or 245AC

For Genna, obviously, if she was born in 243AC, she would have been born after Gerold had died. If Genna had been born in 244AC, that would automatically place Kevans birth in 245AC.

But now we at least have an order for the siblings. Tywin first, then Genna, then Kevan.

[HexMachina]

Wrt Bloodraven -

So he was imprisoned by Maekar I...but still lead the Great Council? We can be reasonably confident that the basis for his arrest then was the dislike Maekar had of Bloodraven then, right? Because if he had committed some sort of treason or something, surely he would not be accepted as leading the Great Council?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Also, with Maekar busy fighting in 232AC already, that might suggest he had been too preoccupied to name a new heir since Aerion died that year as well. If Maekar was too busy to name his heir, that could give more ground to the Great Council of 233AC.

But seriously, that people choose Bloodraven, a man they all mistrusted, to choose the heir of Maekar, a man most didn't like, says something about their feelings for Maekar.

Maekar died due to a rock against the head.. Irony.. :)

If I'm not mistaken, I counted 7 children for Jason, namely Stafford, Joanna, 4 trueborn siblings (of which 1 was from his first marriage, where the girl died during birth), and a bastard. Which makes me wonder.. Where did all the Lannister cousins go?

he seems like a good guy, Tytos said about Walder.

O_o... Gods Tytos... Why?

Tywin was a cupbearer to Aegon V and a squire to Aerys? (is just Tywin and Aerys fighting on the Stepstones wrong, or the entire squire thing?)

In 260 AC, Jason died on Bloodstone, of a flux of the bowels, though it was also said that he was killed by Maelys.

Which places the War of the Ninepenny Kings firmly in 260AC?

Rohanne was the mother to the last Lord Tarbeck, who was three years old at the time. It was rumored that he became a bard across the Narrow Sea, but more likely is that he was thrown down a well by Ser Amory Lorch.

Ser Amory was building a reputation.. :P

But more importantly, which Lady Rohanne is this? Do we know? Is this the daughter of Ellyn (Ellyn named her daughters Rohanne and Sarelle..)

Because that would suggest that Ellyn birthed only daughters, no sons, for her Tarbeck husband. Yet later I found a mentioning of a son named Tion from Lady Rohanne Reyne/Lannister/Tarbeck.

[ashayatara]

Rohanne would be the daughter of Ellyn, yes, and Tion was Ellyn's son, and the same age as Tywin.

Ellyn, who hadn’t been fertile with Tion, was fertile with Tarbeck. She named her daughters Rohanne and Sarelle, which were daggers to Gerold. Ellyn then named her son Tion. Shortly after, Jeyne gave birth to Tywin.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rohanne would be the daughter of Ellyn, yes, and Tion was Ellyn's son, and the same age as Tywin.

But then, Rohanne thus is the mother of the last Lord Tarbeck (aged 3) after Tion's death only? Tarbeck Hall went from Tion to Tion's nephew, not to Rohanne first.. I see..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to Genna's age at her betrothal:

7 years is from the books, and looking at George's text, he says 7 there as well.

I haven't commented at length, but I'm afraid not all the notes are quite correct. Most are, but there's a couple of errors... which I will not actually correct. Read the book. ;)

[Mithras]

Gerold's beloved wife was Lady Rohanne Webber (most probably). I bet she was involved in the kinslayings of Tybolt and Sarelle.

Ellyn Reyne named her daughters Rohanne and Sarelle as a message to Gerold. (I know that you did last summer).

[ashayatara]

Yes, that is of course the case re: possible errors in any report from a reading (well, one that wasn't recorded)...though I must admit, I was doubtful that we would both happen to write the same wrong number, that is certainly more likely than GRRM misspeaking, though that is also a possibility.

Fingers crossed that most of the mistakes mentioned in various notes were not from ours, we did try our best to keep anything not quite certain in parentheses. Even though I hate to think I might have accidentally spread any misinformation at all, I am happy to be kept guessing wrt what is correct and incorrect...it just means we must continue to question everything!

[HexMachina]

Just want to add, if the Blackfyre IV comment isn't one of the incorrect notes Ran mentioned, it puts the "Friends in the Reach" comment into a whole.new light, suggesting as some have claimed that its individual members of the GC who have friends in the Reach, rather than the GC and BFs as a whole. It also supports the belief of posters such as Lord Varys that there are no "Blackfyre Loyalists" only Targaryen loyalists