(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

[Amber W]

About the "trial": was anyone else reminded of the Lannisters dragging Sansa from her bed to give evidence way back in season 1? I haven't seen it some time, but the way they urged her on etc. really reminded me of that scene.

I've always hoped for and expected Sansa to become more of a 'player', but I felt like this was a bit over-the-top; the scene would have benefited from some subtlety. I also regret that Sansa's intelligence has to be shown at the expense of Littlefinger's; Sansa outwitting someone as smart as book Littlefinger would have been /is going to be way cooler.

[adiman83]

About the "trial": was anyone else reminded of the Lannisters dragging Sansa from her bed to give evidence way back in season 1? I haven't seen it some time, but the way they urged her on etc. really reminded me of that scene.

I've always hoped for and expected Sansa to become more of a 'player', but I felt like this was a bit over-the-top; the scene would have benefited from some subtlety. I also regret that Sansa's intelligence has to be shown at the expense of Littlefinger's; Sansa outwitting someone as smart as book Littlefinger would have been /is going to be way cooler.

You're forgetting who were her teachers. She learned from Cersei, Tyrion, Margaery and Littlefinger himself.

[jons nissa]

True but will she use sex like Cersei? Giving it up completely? Or Margaery? Dangling the forbidden fruit in front of her target to get what she wants? There's a difference. I would think Sansa's situation is more aligned with Margaery. A young girl being used as a pawn and whose value is weighed by her inheritance and maidenhead. Cersei's situation and stage in life, although again being forced into marriage, is vastly different, requiring different strategy.

i said in other posts i don't expect her to become cersei v. 2.0. i agree, she'll be more like margaery.

I've always hoped for and expected Sansa to become more of a 'player', but I felt like this was a bit over-the-top; the scene would have benefited from some subtlety. I also regret that Sansa's intelligence has to be shown at the expense of Littlefinger's; Sansa outwitting someone as smart as book Littlefinger would have been /is going to be way cooler.

i completely agree. having littlefinger be so clueless and without the slightest hint of a plan is completely out of character. and yes, her transformation, especially visually, was too abrupt even though it was anticipated and much desired.

[House Mosse]

Damn, it's weird to make speculations on both the books and the show at the same time.

Yeah, it's great, isn't it?! Various commenters further up the thread are talking about this being a WoW spoiler. In a way that's correct (if this is indeed a view of things that have not yet been revealed in the books, but will be), but I'm not sure that that is the right way to view it. The way I see it, both formats are authentic sources of ASOIAF/GoT lore - nothing is changed in the tv shows that seriously effects the main arc of the story - so we are now simply at a point where the tv show can tell us things that we have not yet learnt from the books. No longer is it a case of those of us who have read the books smartly knowing everything that will happen in the show. It's not a spoiler, it's just that we are now in a situation where we can all be surprised, and learn a bit more about the world of ice and fire, whatever format we are enjoying. How awesome is that?

Ah, and given that this is a Sansa thread - this has never happened to me before, but I think I might actually have fallen in love with a character of a tv programme. The new "vixen" Sansa - OMG - a lump in my throat.

[Cold Hands warm heart]

It could go south, but it is evident that Royce, Corbray, Waynwood and some notable other Vale Lords truly care for the Stark cause. They knew Ned when he was little and even if they discover that Sansa lies for Littlefinger, she's still important for them.

Damn, it's weird to make speculations on both the books and the show at the same time.

The Vale Lords are not beholding to the North. Of course they could care but......

And Sansa when did the intelligence develop in the character? She seamed to be the lost little girl until last night. When did she start thinking for herself? After she told the Queen about her fathers plans or before. I enjoy her stuff, I am a Stark supporter but to give her depth now I would of like to have seen some decisions making by her prior.

[shadowfire]

I think these are all valid points. A thought, however. On your statement that Sansa is "trying to make him [LF] desire her so that he will not hurt her and do what she wants while simultaneously avoiding sexual advance from him". Are you sure that's what she's doing? There might not be that much "avoiding" going on here - she might have decided that this is the way to make her move. Though yes, a very dangerous game, and she'll have to be very careful how she plays it.

Truth. She could be trying to get him to make a move on her. But this is also not a good move, at least not now. She could kill him while his guard is down (i.e. when he makes his move on her): this would be easier to explain (especially considering how well her waterworks worked on the Vale Lords before) and rationalize to herself, as she would not be directly proactive (such as poisoning him). On the other hand it will be unpredictably timed because a lot depends on his actions - no guarantee that her plan would work and she would lose her virginity. I think if she wanted to make a move and vamp it up she should wait until he consolidates the Vale/Riverlands behind her, marries her to Robin. Its too soon to start seducing before she has a backup plan, particularly as he seems very receptive already.

BTW I don't think she wants him - she knows he murdered twice and uses people pretty cruelly, I just don't see it b/c she is a romantic at heart, but you never know he might appear sympathetic later and she breaks.

[Lee-Sensei]

I think its an issue that Sansa revealed herself to the Vale Lords. Here they're pro Team Stark (even putting Robb over their own Lord and completely ignoring the Baratheon option). Why shouldn't she trust them?

[Gogossos]

I honestly don't think we're in uncharted TWOW territory. Except for one thing, Sansa doesn't do anything that she didn't do in AFFC. That one thing is coming out explicitly to Lords Royce and Corbray and Lady Waynwood. Her alias is still intact, hence the hair and dress. She didn't dye her hair until now because she was stuck in the Eyrie.

LF's little tale about Lysa's demise wouldn't have fooled those guys; LF's tale with Alayne's corroboration would have fared only slightly better. It is Sansa Stark's name and presence that seals the deal. Basically, the prime Vale Lords discover they have bigger fish to fry than Lysa's death, something they will revisit some other day. But for now they have to wonder how to deal with Sansa's presence in their midst. I think that was the same dynamic in the books too, the elaborate lie that Sansa participated in only got accepted pretty much because Sansa was telling it. I think D&D made a smart change, they let Sansa accept that the ruse will not fool anyone and let her deliberately leverage her own name. That's why I think we are still in AFFC with Sansa, her TWOW material will be explored next season. In this episode, it was stated that Robin is sickly - so they will need time to establish that.

Sansa is now explicitly doing what she subtly does (or is trying to do) in the books. I don't think we sped/skipped forward that much.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

She's Malefisansa now.

[Raksha 2014]

The Vale Lords are not beholding to the North. Of course they could care but......

And Sansa when did the intelligence develop in the character? She seamed to be the lost little girl until last night. When did she start thinking for herself? After she told the Queen about her fathers plans or before. I enjoy her stuff, I am a Stark supporter but to give her depth now I would of like to have seen some discussion making by her prior.

Sansa's great moments of agency would have been even better had they been set up by a minute or three of foreshadowing, or something implying that Sansa went from A to F without skipping B-C-D-E.

[voodooqueen126]

I would argue that "Sansa moment" has not yet occurred in the books, LOL, despite it being obvious it will occur sooner or later.

I can't disagree w/GRRM interpretation of his own character, but LF as Jay Gatsby? WTF. LF is a destructive, malevolent asshole who kills people to get ahead. Jay Gatsby was a bootlegger. However, I guess that does tell us that LF love for Cat was real, something that has been much discussed.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/324330.html

someone called James

A Gatsby Parallel

I might have known you liked Great Gatsby, George. It's a masterful book, a soulgaze into both the American psyche and the soul of a romantic that came so close to achieving what he wanted, yet could never quite reach it. And your review didn't disappoint; looks like I'll have to see that movie now.

It makes me wonder whether you included a parallel character to Gatsby in your seminal work, as you have with Shylock and the Three Stooges.

I might be reaching, but I think I might have found one: Petyr Baelish. He's a man who stops at nothing to chase after the memory of the woman he loves, even if he has to use the enterprises of the underworld to get there. He's a much more ruthless character, more sinister and slimy, yet his goal seems the same. Perhaps Baelish has lost sight of that obsession in search of power, but I hold on hope that the remnants of that pure passion lies somewhere underneath. It would almost make me root for him, if that were the case.

Link | Frozen | Thread

grrm

May. 20th, 2013 08:00 pm (UTC)

Re: A Gatsby Parallel

Yes, there's a lot of Gatsby in Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, anyway. TV Littlefinger is a different sort of creature.

[Uldra I]

Know this has all been said in this thread already, but just want to throw in my two cents

The transformation of Sansa all in this one episode was shocking and IMHO unbelievable. Others rightly point out that she has been learning the game since leaving WF, but only last episode, Sansa was still the little girl, building her snow castle, her childish (although justified) outburst at SweetRobin about the castle, and her shock and confusion over Petyr's kiss. Now suddenly she has been transformed from the meek, obedient, girl to ?femme fatale?. Huh? Talk about character whiplash.

At LF's hearing, I believe Sophie delivered the best acting she's done on the show in her lies to the Lords Declarant. She already knew that the Lords would be sympathetic to a Stark because of overhearing an earlier conversation between them and LF. So, her move to reveal her identity was brilliant. Now she will not be forced to live under LF's thumb. She will find protection from the Lannisters and from LF (if need be) from The Vale. The Vale will most likely help her win back WF from the Bolton/Frey/Stannis people, with or without her having to marry SweetRobin or Harry the Heir.

When she is being consoled by the Lady Declarant and reassured she'd be safe now, the look she gives Petyr didn't look like desire to me. It seemed she was saying, "See I can play the game too, now." I sensed a bit of forewarning toward him, letting him know she will not be his pawn. Petyr's look seemed to beam pride back at her that she is learning the game so well.

Finally, THAT DRESS! :ack: Know there's been lots of speculation about it's symbolic meaning... but that was no 'girls' dress for sure. The only thing I'd like to add about it is that I don't think it is meant for Petyr's enjoyment, but more as her statement that she is no longer going to be treated like a child with no control over her own life.

It'd be wonderful if show people will clarify their intent a little bit. ETA: unlike others on this thread I don't yet get the sense that she necessarily has some grand scheme up her dress. I think that will grow from her new found self-confidence. But definitely not with LF up her dress. If he ends up there (and I think he will) it won't be of her choosing.

[Raksha 2014]

I hope that GRRM is referring to Gatsby and Littlefinger's both being men of low social standing and poor backgrounds who levered themselves up to the highest echelons by their wits and ruthlessness. I never saw Gatsby as a sociopath; and Littlefinger seems very close to one if not the real thing.

[jarl the climber]

Completely agree. I like the direction they are going with Sansa, but I feel like it is being very rushed, especially her relationship with Baelish. This is just one of the pacing problems I feel the show has at this point.

I don't mind the plot changes, but the writing was a bit weak.

1) Better intro for the Lords needed, and Petyr should have been shown at least trying to coach Sansa (or gauge her likely reactions), and then failing to convince the Lords, and then Sansa saving the day. Basically, it felt like an establishing scene was missing.

2) In episode 4, Petyr flat out says what he wants ("Everything"), so it just seemed clumsy to rehash the dialog here, at least without Sansa clearly taking it to the next level.

3) Some sort of comment on (reason for) the new look would have been nice, other than just putting her in black like she's a new Sith Lord. Something about wanting to become a widow (since she had mentioned the forced marriage to Tyrion) or something.

Anyway, hoping that regardless of how, the last words she says to LF end up being, "Only Ned" (lol, "my father" for the show).

Adressing 3, I thought she was wearing the dark dress because she was in mourning for Lysa Arryn. While I think the dress did serve a symbolic purpose, it represents her deception in covering up the truth about her Aunts death among other things, there is a practical reason for her to be wearing a black dress, she is nominally Petyrs niece and ward and Lysa was his wife.

[jarl the climber]

Oh, I was curious, does anyone else think that its starting to be implied that Robin is Petyrs son, at least in the show universe?

[Jon-Michael Pearson]

I am not sure why people think the show as jumped the books there is so much that as not happened, at least two more seasons.

We need the whole Dorne storyline in Dorne, Quenten Matell journey to find Daenrys, Aryra whole story in Bravos, Aegon story, Davos story with Manderly, there is so much in ADWD. There is also hte whole Tully stroyline and the best character in the whole book Black Fish

[Florina Laufeyson]

About the "trial": was anyone else reminded of the Lannisters dragging Sansa from her bed to give evidence way back in season 1? I haven't seen it some time, but the way they urged her on etc. really reminded me of that scene.

"You have nothing to fear from us, child."

Yes. This was a very deliberate call back both in-universe and out. Sansa knows this, its written on her face. "I was here before. Only those people were different and my father was standing there. Lady...I had to say something. So i told them i couldnt remember. Arya...She called me a liar. Lysa....she tried to kill me. Lord Baelish...you will see. Not everyone is a better liar than me." I thought that scene was really great for that reason.

Oh, I was curious, does anyone else think that its starting to be implied that Robin is Petyrs son, at least in the show universe?

Whoa there, cowboy. Where did you get that impression?

[Uldra I]

"You have nothing to fear from us, child."

Yes. This was a very deliberate call back both in-universe and out. Sansa knows this, its written on her face. "I was here before. Only those people were different and my father was standing there. Lady...I had to say something. So i told them i couldnt remember. Arya...She called me a liar. Lysa....she tried to kill me. Lord Baelish...you will see. Not everyone is a better liar than me." I thought that scene was really great for that reason.

...

Add to it all her lies about her father and how she had to appease Cersei & co. at her father's trial with lies, and halftruths... Now she uses honesty, and wins it!

Great Catch! :agree:

[hallam]

It sort of changes the dynamic of what the role of Alayne means for Sansa. This portrays it as just her playing a part and everyone who matters already knows who she really is. It seems she cannot ever assume the persona as deeply as she did in the books. Perhaps the ability to assume the role of Alayne with great depth is irrelevant to her progression in the book.

I think they are skipping the Alayne part and good riddance.

Novels and TV have different requirements. A novel can have a minor character in every scene without ever giving them a proper role. A TV series can't have a character on the set every day for four seasons without giving them a proper role.

Sansa is obviously going to be more important in book 6 onwards. GRRM has killed off everyone else. But Sophie Turner can't wait for a whole new season just to get a character the viewers don't hate.

It makes sense to make more of Sansa in any case. Because without Sansa, no more Baelish. And now he's out of KL, no more Varys to spar with, no more small council.

But I think there is another part to it and that is that Baelish is very similar to Cersei in that he spends a lot of time scheming but it does not get him as far as he imagines. Baelish is the nominal lord of Harrenhal but hasn't set foot there.

I have the feeling that Baelish is going to end up poisoned or otherwise disposed of by Sansa.

[jarl the climber]

"You have nothing to fear from us, child."

Yes. This was a very deliberate call back both in-universe and out. Sansa knows this, its written on her face. "I was here before. Only those people were different and my father was standing there. Lady...I had to say something. So i told them i couldnt remember. Arya...She called me a liar. Lysa....she tried to kill me. Lord Baelish...you will see. Not everyone is a better liar than me." I thought that scene was really great for that reason.

Whoa there, cowboy. Where did you get that impression?

Well, I have a friend who watches the show who has not read the books and that was his guess. His reasoning was that they had been having an affair on and off for quite some time, that Robin and Petyr seem fond of each other, that he killed Lysa to protect Robin as well as Sansa and that his endgame is to secure the Vale for his son. He was just wondering if he was barking up the wrong tree and I told him that some people who read the books think its possible. I don't really subscribe to this at this point but it does make some sense.