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Annara Snow

(BOOK SPOILERS) Discussing Sansa XI: Lies and Arbor Gold

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It might not go that much south because Royce, Waynwood and Cobray were manipulated even worse than LF was. Even if does go south she still gains something from it. If those three manage to see through her deception Sansa's safe because she's an asset and also the key to the North as Robb Stark's. But, in the same time, if the whole plan blows up in their faces, Lf's pretty much done ... he's getting a first class ticket on Moon Door Airways and she still manages to eliminate one of her father's betrayers.

LF is gonna get the chop from Sansa, sure. But not through the moon door. The whole set was struck. So they are unlikely to return to the Erie. And lets face it, GRRM does not find it difficult to think up innovative ways to kill of characters.

We have already had two Moon door deaths.

I have a feeling that LF is going to meet Lady Stoneheart before the end as well.

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They may have Sansa kill LF differently in the books to the series. As things progress they may start changing major details from the books, it could very well end up that some characters in the show have completely different endings to the books.

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Exactly. It ties with what Littlefinger said, that hiding his true motivations makes him unpredictable and gives him power. She knows his motivations, and he is almost powerless to her.

Also, can anyone link the angry Sansa shot? I don't think we'll see her again this season, but if there's proof...

I think you'll see her in the last episode. I think everyone who is alive gets their 3 minutes of fame.

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I think you'll see her in the last episode. I think everyone who is alive gets their 3 minutes of fame.

IMDB says she's in (not the most reliable source though), as well as a Royce (I believe it was Nestor, have to check again). If it is Nestor maybe Sansa will find out Ayra is alive? Of course she's disguised now, so that's not incredibly likely.

I think we'll be seeing every main character except Theon/Boltons.

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With both Sansa and Arya, people bitterly complained that the girls didn't have enough agency in their escapes from Kings Landing and Harrenhal, but then the show turned around and gave those characters agency in spades a little later on.



Sansa is still a virgin. The show cares deeply about Sansa's journey into womanhood and won't gloss over that bit. One of the first things out of her mouth in the pilot was explaining to Cersei that she hadn't gotten her period. We saw her first kiss, the souring of her first love, we saw her get her period, we saw her sex education from Cersei and Margery, we saw the first wedding night. When she loses her virginity, it won't be ambiguous.



During the sewing-on-a-bed scene, it felt to me like Sansa was reconciling herself to teaming up with Littlefinger and playing the game for real. Then she put on her new dress representing a new identity and she transformed.


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They may have Sansa kill LF differently in the books to the series. As things progress they may start changing major details from the books, it could very well end up that some characters in the show have completely different endings to the books.

this may be true but so far, most (possibly all?) the show deaths have matched the book deaths, right?

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this may be true but so far, most (possibly all?) the show deaths have matched the book deaths, right?

For the most part. There are exceptions (Mago dies in the show and not in the books, for instance), but for the most part the manner has been the same. Or when the manner is different (Rast, Karl), the plot following resets to be the same.

I don't think the endings will be different. Because of the difference in medium, the paths from point A to point X may be different, but X is unlikely to change. Otherwise, they wouldn't have sat down with GRRM and hashed everything out.

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I liked that Sansa revealed herself to the Lords Declarant. That gets her partially out from under Littlefinger's thumb. She knows he wants her alive, and now if he mistreats her, she has recourse. Given how far she is from Kings Landing now, and how hard the Vale is to assault, it makes sense to balance the risk of Cersei finding her against the risk of being at Littlefinger's mercy.



It is a real problem for the show that the characters are increasingly spread out. It makes a lot of sense to fast forward through some of the isolated parts and get characters back into position to do something that matters to other people on the show. With Arya going into complete obscurity next season, hopefully Sansa and Littlefinger's plotline will have ramifications in Kings Landing.



Ok here is a thought: it seems likely that Cersei will suspect one or both of the Stark girls are in the Vale next season (Arya's announcement was hardly discreet and even Pod knows Sansa probably went to the Vale). If Varys is remotely competent, he should point her in that direction, particularly since he hates/fears Littlefinger. While her central conflict will be with the Tyrells, Cersei could become obsessed with invading the Vale rather than screwing around with a bunch of new characters. If the show wanted to veer far off the path of the books, they could send the Ironborne straight for Dany rather than invading the Reach, and could send Loras with the Tyrell army toward the Vale. Given Sansa and Loras' history, that could be kinda fun.


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I liked that Sansa revealed herself to the Lords Declarant. That gets her partially out from under Littlefinger's thumb. She knows he wants her alive, and now if he mistreats her, she has recourse. Given how far she is from Kings Landing now, and how hard the Vale is to assault, it makes sense to balance the risk of Cersei finding her against the risk of being at Littlefinger's mercy.

And by "confessing" she also has something on Littlefinger now, officially making him her bitch. If he ever steps out of line she can always tell the Lords Declarant what really happened and claim that LF forced her to lie to them because everybody knows how dangerous he is. That would basically be Darth Sansa's word against LF's but considering how much they "like" him and the fact that she's almost family to them, Baelish would definitety get a one way ticket to the Moon Door.

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The Moon Door has exited the stage.



People need to stop pretending everyone is still at the Eyrie. In the show they are about to leave to tour the Lord of the Vale around his territory. It says so. Sansa says "shall we go".



In the books they were on their way down, past several way-castles last we saw. No more Moon Door, at least until the last book.


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this may be true but so far, most (possibly all?) the show deaths have matched the book deaths, right?

Talisa (Jeyne Westerling is still alive) Most of the Dothraki, The Undying, reason for Axel Florent's death etc. have all had different deaths or changes. While most of these characters are minor the show is changing more and more as it progresses and as more filler is added they are changing the characer motivations and endings to suit their ideas.

The show is still hitting major plot points but the characters are becoming very different from the books: mainly simplified or truncated versions of themselves. So with Sansa we lost her development from S3 and now they have rushed her development taking away many aspects of the book character. Her growing sexuality in the books was made non-existent on the show and now she is suddenly turning femme fatale. It wouldn't surprise me if they have their own invented death for LF that is different from the books (where it is highly likely due to Chekov's Hairnet that he will be poisoned with the Strangler). So possibly either way he ends up poisoned, but it becomes slightly different in execution.

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The Moon Door has exited the stage.

People need to stop pretending everyone is still at the Eyrie. In the show they are about to leave to tour the Lord of the Vale around his territory. It says so. Sansa says "shall we go".

In the books they were on their way down, past several way-castles last we saw. No more Moon Door, at least until the last book.

Agreed. Plus the show tore down the Eyrie set, so I wouldn't be shocked if we never saw it again, even in the ADOS season(s?).

The show is still hitting major plot points but the characters are becoming very different from the books: mainly simplified or truncated versions of themselves. So with Sansa we lost her development from S3 and now they have rushed her development taking away many aspects of the book character. Her growing sexuality in the books was made non-existent on the show and now she is suddenly turning femme fatale. It wouldn't surprise me if they have their own invented death for LF that is different from the books (where it is highly likely due to Chekov's Hairnet that he will be poisoned with the Strangler). So possibly either way he ends up poisoned, but it becomes slightly different in execution.

Or maybe that's the show's way of saying stop trying to make Chekov's Hairnet happen. It's not going to happen (in either medium).

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Just a reminder to everyone. Show Sansa has no idea that it was Littlefinger that had Jon Arryn poisoned and killed nor does she know that it was he that gave the gold cloaks to Cersei and betrayed Ned in the throne room. Book Sansa does not know about the Gold cloaks and the throne room either. I wonder what will happen if she ever does?


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One thing I had wondered about was whether the show would revisit LF meeting Arya at Harrenhal. D&D have done lots without purpose; dear departed Ros, I'm thinking of you and the ghastly sexposition. There had to have been some purpose behind making LF aware that Arya was still very much alive - he never let Tywin know one of the last Starks was right under his nose, eating his food, even though LF clearly recognized her as she did him, Will LF ever let Sansa know he has seen her sister? Keeping the hope that she she is still alive and they might be reunited will mean something even to Sansa 2.0. Will Arya's solo journey be delayed now?


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Talisa (Jeyne Westerling is still alive) Most of the Dothraki, The Undying, reason for Axel Florent's death etc. have all had different deaths or changes. While most of these characters are minor the show is changing more and more as it progresses and as more filler is added they are changing the characer motivations and endings to suit their ideas.

i was going to mention talisa but everyone connected with the show has gone to great lengths to iterate that she is not jeyne so i didn't mention her. and yes, minor characters have had different endings but the major characters all have most of their arc be the same. we may see a difference in the future but so far, they've matched up pretty closely even if there are significant differences in some of the circumstances. even here, marillon was missing but lysa still flew at the hands of littlefinger.

The show is still hitting major plot points but the characters are becoming very different from the books: mainly simplified or truncated versions of themselves. So with Sansa we lost her development from S3 and now they have rushed her development taking away many aspects of the book character. Her growing sexuality in the books was made non-existent on the show and now she is suddenly turning femme fatale. It wouldn't surprise me if they have their own invented death for LF that is different from the books (where it is highly likely due to Chekov's Hairnet that he will be poisoned with the Strangler). So possibly either way he ends up poisoned, but it becomes slightly different in execution.

this.

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One thing I had wondered about was whether the show would revisit LF meeting Arya at Harrenhal. D&D have done lots without purpose; dear departed Ros, I'm thinking of you and the ghastly sexposition. There had to have been some purpose behind making LF aware that Arya was still very much alive - he never let Tywin know one of the last Starks was right under his nose, eating his food, even though LF clearly recognized her as she did him, Will LF ever let Sansa know he has seen her sister? Keeping the hope that she she is still alive and they might be reunited will mean something even to Sansa 2.0. Will Arya's solo journey be delayed now?

I happened in Season 3 where LF told Sansa

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I happened in Season 3 where LF told Sansa

Oh man, just rewatched that scene (you're right about him telling Sansa that Arya's alive), and what fantastic foreshadowing to her moment from this episode. "Because I'm a terrible liar. You said so yourself."

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