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[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion


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I read this on another board about the Orson story:



I laughed for about five minutes after this episode aired. Don't misunderstand me. It's tragic what happened tonight. The show introduced a compelling character and spent the majority of the season fleshing him out beautifully, giving him purpose and deftly balancing his humor with pathos. He heroically fights for Tyrion in a visceral battle with The Mountain, filled with kinetic bravado, and just when you think he'll achieve catharsis, he's thwarted. He gets his confession as his eyes are gouged out and he's cranially decimated. Cersei smiles, Tywin sentences his son to death, and Tyrion stares dumbfounded.


Why?


Refer to the penultimate scene between Tyrion and Jamie. They talk of their simple cousin who spent his days smashing beetles. Tyrion is fascinated by his moronic actions while family legacies and Targaryen dragons fade into the background. All that's left is the sound of the killings. "And I still couldn't figure out why he was doing it, and I had to know because it was horrible that all these beetles should be dying for no reason." Orson gave no answer and he kept on killing until he was kicked in the chest by a mule and died.


This is Coen Brothers level absurdity, and at the end of this episode not only did Oberyn's death make sense, but everything else did as well. Suddenly everything from the Red Wedding to Ned Stark's death was put sharply into perspective. George R. R. Martin is the cousin killing beetles and the only thing left to do is laugh.


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Whew, that was fast.



-The Mole's Town bit was a bit cliche. Wildlings are raiding as usual, Ygritte is evil enough to kill anyone in her way but babies are off limits so she's not THAT evil and we should feel sad when she dies.



-Grey Worm/Missandrei was well acted and kinda cute. But I really didn't care about it. Honest. They're side characters and we know it's going nowhere. But it was cute.



-Theon's actor is amazing, it will never be said enough. The scene was nothing special, but Allen still killed it. Also liked Roose and Ramsay's dialogue.



-Sansa going from pawn to player was a bit too abrupt. One episode ago she was making snow castles, getting gripped by Lysa and having childish disputes with Sweetrobin. Now she's a kinda vampy manipulator who masterfully lies to high lords and saves Littlefinger from his own folly, not to mention dat dress. I don't like Baelish in the books, but in the show he seems a bit too clueless. He really had no plan to properly explain the Lysa-cide? And didn't even brief Sansa? Cmon, he's smarter than that. Otherwise it was very well acted.



-Jorah's exile played as it should have. A bit sad we won't have his actor to up the level of acting in Dany scenes anymore, albeit Clarke did well enough this time.



-I really didn't like Arya being revealed. For Sansa it worked since it was in secret with honorable people, but the Arya Stark that was missing for more than a year announces her presence to the Bloody Gate within earshot of dozens of people and no one bats an eyelash? But the laughter was just golden. It ties in nicely with Tyrion's first scene; the sheer absurdity of it all means you can only crack up. I laughed as she did, honest. Also a great counterpart to Sandor's ''fuck me, I'll never get that gold'' face.



-Once again, the show attempts subtlety where book readers bemoans it has none, and once again it whooshes right over the head of several of them (us?). Just like with Cercei suddendly turning into Mother Theresa, there was a purpose in all this. The senseless killing and waste of life, unexplainable. It's Tyrion's defense mechanism, gallows humor at his finest. All the talk about dynasties and family legacies is just sugar-coating; in the end, it's only people killing people.



-The duel, oh the duel. Most anticipated scene this season after the Tywinicide, and it did not disappoint. They kept most of the book's good lines and the choreography was nice, albeit Pascal jumped around a bit too much for my liking. Speaking of Pascal, he aced this scene, going from confident to raging as the battle goes on, with all the swagger we expect from the Prince of Dorne. Tyrion's face in the end was also perfect; he's dead and has just realized it. I'm glad there was no vomit, that wouldn't translate well to the screen at all.



I am also rarely squicked by anything on TV, but my that was gruesome. The eye gouges while the usually calm Oberyn screams in pain? Chilling. But the head popping was over the top. Gregor is really strong, sure, but that would require way more force than what he can muster. The sound it made, you would think Oberyn ate a 12-gauge slug at point blank range or got his head hit by a heavy warhammer.


Edited by Jasta11
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We know why George kills them, so that doesn't really make sense. (He kills them because it's a dramatic part of the story he's telling to his audience, obviously.)



It was really just about Tyrion's powerlessness to effect his own fate. His mind turned toward the pointless and meaningless, and given his fate being decided, no surprise if it turned to a more morbid thought.


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About the beetle-scene. Didn't they poke fun on George R.R Martin writing, a bit there? The retarded cousin that loves to kill bugs, is in fact GRRM who loves to kill his characters.



No one will admit it. But obvious that it was some sort of weird homage.


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We know why George kills them, so that doesn't really make sense. (He kills them because it's a dramatic part of the story he's telling to his audience, obviously.)

It was really just about Tyrion's powerlessness to effect his own fate. His mind turned toward the pointless and meaningless, and given his fate being decided, no surprise if it turned to a more morbid thought.

Yes I know. I just that it was amusing to connect the story of Orson with GRRM.

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Arya's laughter works several ways. On the one hand, she's laughing because she's finally within reach of some measure of safety and again, it gets snatched away. She's just a couple of days too late. On the other hand: her aunt just died and that really doesn't seem to phase her. And, yes, like she said, she doesn't actually know her aunt. But hey, it's still her aunt.

Not a scene to my liking.

There was some rumor that the Hound could be getting himself killed by the Knights of the Vale. In hindsight, that doesn't seem logical with Arya by his side. But then they could've just skipped the Bloody Gate alltogether. We've had enough close encounters and I don't think they're fooling anyone in to believing a Stark reunion is within the realm of possibilities.

I think she is laughing because of her plight, every where she is taken her family ends up dead and she is at the fuggit stage. The part where you've been through hell and you are just numb to it, so numb it's now comical. That and most importantly, The Hound. He can't catch a break, and now won't get his ransom money again and it's funny as hell to Arya. Edited by SerJeremiahLouistark
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I voiced my dislike of this episode elsewhere and was accused of constantly complaining about the show not being like the book. Season four has been one of the best seasons of any show I've ever seen! I think that is what made tonight's episode even worse. I really thought it was shitty. Glimpses of interesting things capped off with one of the best fight scenes ever filmed...it just can't add up to a better-than-bad episode. I dunno, I just find people getting defensive and complaining about other people complaining very irritating (even if that's what I am doing.) Seeing almost every issue I had with the episode brought up independently at least helps me know I am not the only one. I am definitely not watching this show to complain about it failing to compare to (the admittedly much better) printed version. I watch it because it's a great show, but even great shows can have bad episodes. This show has easily had at least half a dozen bad episodes out of 38. That's still pretty good.

Don't worry, you're not alone. My wife and I were almost too embarrassed by this one to keep watching. Very dissapointing stuff here (overwhelming, admittedly, a couple good scenes).

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This is Coen Brothers level absurdity


The Coen Brothers comparison is apt, since Tyrion's speech brought to mind their movie A Serious Man, where the protagonist grapples with trying to find meaning in all the horrible things happening to him.


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I think my problem with the duel is Pedro Pascal's selling of it. There was no sense of urgency. The anger wasn't there. The fury wasn't there. Before the duel starts, he has the man who murdered his sister and her children, raping the former, right in front of him. And yet, he's pandering to the crowd.

I'm sorry, I just can't believe anyone would be that way in those circumstance. The choreography itself is why I give the fight a 7/10 because it could have been much lower for me.

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About the beetle-scene. Didn't they poke fun on George R.R Martin writing, a bit there? The retarded cousin that loves to kill bugs, is in fact GRRM who loves to kill his characters.

No one will admit it. But obvious that it was some sort of weird homage.

Yeah it was definitely an homage to George among other things.

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The part with the beetles wasn't bad. But come on... people wanted the battle. I did. Bad terrible timing. They could have done it better at the start of the episode.



Anyway, the whole beetle thing is that even those who think they have the power, from idiots like Cersei, capable men like Tywin or entitled twatbeards like Littlefinger is that they can be outplayed too and be destroyed easily. Oberyn was winning and he then died.



When Tyrion asked his trial by combat, many Unsullied though Jaime would be his champion. Why? Because, among other reasons, as he was training with Bronn, he would suddenly unlock the super power of love and become powerful and defeat the opponent. We know that wouldn't have happened. He had been crushed by the Mountain. Here is the same. We thought that Oberyn would win and get justice for Elia and her kids, but the Mountain outplayed him during a reckless moment. Shit happens.


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I loved the Red Viper's skills on display. We didn't really get too much backstory on his fighting prowess. They just showed us. That worked for me. Pretty much exactly how I pictured his fighting style when reading it. Absolutely brutal end. I hated to see such a great character die but what a way to go.

I completely agree! I thought his fighting was awesome! That was how I read it, too. He looked so graceful, and it all looked a bit effortless... SO sad to see him go too RIP Prince Oberyn!

Jaime's face while watching Oberyn fight was priceless! He looked so impressed! Haha

And Tyrion's face towards the end - his face was saying what we were all thinking... KILL HIM! Even though I knew the ending to this story, I still felt broken and traumatized! *sigh* Still heart-breaking.

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Ok, I thought about it before giving my opinion. I didn't like the final Sansa scene because that's not who Sansa is. This whole "girl gets sexy make over to show improvement and self confidence and how she's ready to kick some ass!" it's something I hate, specially with Sansa who wanted to rule with love and be loved. Specially because in the show, Sansa changes from this to this, and we know that the latest wasn't but an illusion Sansa got trapped into, and it was what caused the ruin of her family (the illusion, I mean. Not her).

While I'm not a Sansa fan, I kinda feel what Stannis' fans feel, to be honest. Like the character has been "ruined", but I won't complain about it, though. I'll go and sulk at Sumerhall.

But isnt that the point? That isnt Sansa because Sansa is pretending to be someone she isnt. Think about it.

I just read the official westeros review of this episode and have never been more disgusted in my life. I appreciate the site runners for giving us this forum. But frankly I will never read anything they write about this show again.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

:thumbsup:

So much this.

I took it as insight on how Tyrion realizes himself having a position of power. His cousin is analgous to some of the terrible nobility that have no regard for the people they rule over.

Even more important, I think Jaime listened intently and will use the story as a reflection on his past self and who he wants to become.

Not to mention the damn fine acting of Dinklage.

Yes this. People who dont get the beetle story make me sad and lose hope for intelligent viewers everywhere.

I get real sad sometimes, I watch an episode like that, absolutely love it and then come on here and it's getting hate for no good reason.

Why do you think my activity has been in the toilet here lately? This is why.

I read this on another board about the Orson story:

I laughed for about five minutes after this episode aired. Don't misunderstand me. It's tragic what happened tonight. The show introduced a compelling character and spent the majority of the season fleshing him out beautifully, giving him purpose and deftly balancing his humor with pathos. He heroically fights for Tyrion in a visceral battle with The Mountain, filled with kinetic bravado, and just when you think he'll achieve catharsis, he's thwarted. He gets his confession as his eyes are gouged out and he's cranially decimated. Cersei smiles, Tywin sentences his son to death, and Tyrion stares dumbfounded.

Why?

Refer to the penultimate scene between Tyrion and Jamie. They talk of their simple cousin who spent his days smashing beetles. Tyrion is fascinated by his moronic actions while family legacies and Targaryen dragons fade into the background. All that's left is the sound of the killings. "And I still couldn't figure out why he was doing it, and I had to know because it was horrible that all these beetles should be dying for no reason." Orson gave no answer and he kept on killing until he was kicked in the chest by a mule and died.

This is Coen Brothers level absurdity, and at the end of this episode not only did Oberyn's death make sense, but everything else did as well. Suddenly everything from the Red Wedding to Ned Stark's death was put sharply into perspective. George R. R. Martin is the cousin killing beetles and the only thing left to do is laugh.

Heh. Not a bad meta to be honest. The absurdity is well appreciated. (for those of us who actually...you know...got it.)

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Amazing episode, way better than the last one.



I really liked the Vale, was really surprised, but in a good way. I gasped when LF said about people dying taking shits, and had to cough to cover my surprise and avoid my reaction to spoiler or hint my family.



The duel was S P E C T A C U L A R.



Pascal was amazing, he really nailed it. I'm going to miss him.


Also, I loved when he demanded to know who gave the order (he didn't in the book, did he?)



My nitpicking goes to Ygritte, and her spare-baby-I've-a-tender-heart depiction with all the blood dripping from the ceiling (that btw, that was awesome!). We know that Ygritte is a good girl, and that Gilly needs to live, but I thought it a bit cheesy. I loved the scene, although: someone had to take care of ugly whore.



The one thing I expected and was disapointed that didn't feature was the dialogue at Moat Cailin when Theonn goes around kicking the corpses, and when he asks who is guarding a tower, he realises it's a dead man, or something of the sort. I remember laughing really hard when reading that scene, and I just expected HBO making it a funny scene =(


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The Coen Brothers comparison is apt, since Tyrion's speech brought to mind their movie A Serious Man, where the protagonist grapples with trying to find meaning in all the horrible things happening to him.

A fair enough reason for a monologue, especially in GoT, I just wish it hadn't come at the expense of comparing a person with a mental handicap to a mindless killer and going for some chuckles while they were at it :/ not the quality of writing I was initially drawn to...

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Amazing episode, way better than the last one.

I really liked the Vale, was really surprised, but in a good way. I gasped when LF said about people dying taking shits, and had to cough to cover my surprise and avoid my reaction to spoiler or hint my family.

The duel was S P E C T A C U L A R.

Pascal was amazing, he really nailed it. I'm going to miss him.

Also, I loved when he demanded to know who gave the order (he didn't in the book, did he?)

My nitpicking goes to Ygritte, and her spare-baby-I've-a-tender-heart depiction with all the blood dripping from the ceiling (that btw, that was awesome!). We know that Ygritte is a good girl, and that Gilly needs to live, but I thought it a bit cheesy. I loved the scene, although: someone had to take care of ugly whore.

The one thing I expected and was disapointed that didn't feature was the dialogue at Moat Cailin when Theonn goes around kicking the corpses, and when he asks who is guarding a tower, he realises it's a dead man, or something of the sort. I remember laughing really hard when reading that scene, and I just expected HBO making it a funny scene =(

I would have liked him demanding to know who gave the order if he hadn't pointed right to Tywin. It's like they're literally saying some people aren't going to be smart enough to remember the answer. Let's tell them as he asks. It's insulting.
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But isnt that the point? That isnt Sansa because Sansa is pretending to be someone she isnt. Think about it.

Yes, I've thought about that too, she's playing him. But she's than playing the game too early already.

It's just, I didn't like the imagery. Many reasons can be given as why is she doing this, in the same way many reasons can be given explaining why Stannis burned "infidels"

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Yes this. People who dont get the beetle story make me sad and lose hope for intelligent viewers everywhere.

I bet these people watch The Silence of the Lambs and are like, "Why does Clarice spend ten minutes talking about some stupid lambs? I wanna see Hannibal eat some people already!!!"

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