[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Yeah it was but it's obviously been rebuilt. The opening sequence often bears little relation to where the episode is actually going to take place, Dragonstone has been in it several times when no time is actually spent on the island in the episode.

yeah plus The Wall is featured in about every episode, but wasn't really featured much of season 2 and 3.

[PhoenixFlame]

As they said in one of the YT videos on the episode, the armour is heavy and restricts movement. When the second strongest man on the planet is having trouble with the weight of the armour I don't think there is much anyone else could have done in it.

I can see that, season 1 Mountain came off that way. It was kind of scary watching him just flip out on his horse and go for Loras. Not so much a glacier, but an avalanche with an angry mind.

I find filming limitations interesting but it's the final product that's critiqued. Agreed, I was more viscerally "EEK!" when S1 Gregor went bonzai on Loras. I understand it's a different actor, just commenting I don't find him as threatening as the S1 tourney scene. That dude was definitely an avalanche more than a glacier, which (mayhaps a bit more in retrospect) made the Hound more of a badass for going toe-to-toe.

They keep denying Roose his best lines. At this point I fear we'll never get to see "rue the day I raped your mother..." :frown5:

Patience my sweet. It's so horridly awesome I'm pretty sure it'll be in S5 :laugh:

Arya's laughter made me grin. I felt a ton of empathy. That's totally the kind of thrice-fucked situation I'd either laugh or cry at, and Arya doesn't cry (when it's not Gendry).

Edited June 2, 2014 by PhoenixFlame

[ARYa_Nym]

In that zap2it interview Maisie said that Arya is indifferent about her family. Perhaps the laughing scene is where she got the idea since we know she doesn't read the books.

"She's completely given up on [reuniting with her family], and it almost feels like they've given up on her because she's like, where were they?" Williams says. "She's angry. She feels like she's the only one who's been trying. Where's the search party looking out for her? Why did no one recognize her? She's angry at the fact that she's trying so hard -- she was angry at the fact that she was trying so hard -- and she can't see any of it coming back.

"Where's Jon? Why has he not come back? And obviously no one knows [where she is], and there's reasons for that, but in her head [she's thinking] 'You're all being really, really selfish and I'm the only one, so now I've given up. Good luck, have fun, hope you don't die.' That's literally it. And she's like, I won't. I know I can do this, because look how far I've come already without you guys. Whereas you, I don't know you anymore. I tried to help you. I tried to get back with you, but [shrugs]."

I laughed but I don't think it was in character. Mainly because book Arya very rarely laughs. In the books she didn't want to go to Lysa and when she found out she was dead all she thought was she had no aunt and moved on.

[clawson24]

I don't think you can just rock up to the Bloody Gate and say 'Hey I'm the Hound and this is some random girl..let me in'. Arya was his bargaining chip so he had to reveal her identity.

Solid point. I suppose it was more the reaction of the Knight of the Gate then that put me off. Seemed to be little to no surprise/reaction to the announcement that one of the most sought-after people in the entire Seven Kingdoms had just arrived at the Eyrie's doorstep.

Edited June 2, 2014 by clawson24

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

KalibakCruel, on 01 Jun 2014 - 6:26 PM, said:

How long until "that's not like the books!" Crowd comes crying? I for one love not knowing what's next.

i love that this post came after those people. and i agree with you

[KalibakCruel]

i love that this post came after those people. and i agree with you

People post too damn quickly sometimes, don't let someone get a word in.

[Kelsey094]

Loved the episode.

I did not expect the head crushing to be honest. I even discussed it with my bf (who doesn't watch or read) and he said they probably couldn't show such a thing. Man was he wrong, lol. The exploding was a bit too much I think. It would be more realistic and still shocking if it just crushed.

I like what they did with Sansa. I love to see her play the game. As long as they don't go too far with it just yet.

Maybe we'll start next episode back at the last scene and see Tyrion puking and getting escorted back to his cells? Would be a nice opening scene.

Arya laughing was out of character yeah, but I liked it. I don't think she has to go 100% dark and murdery. I like a bit of humor in it.

Poor Jorah, but it had to happen! I wonder when we'll see him again next year.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Solid point. I suppose it was more the reaction of the Knight of the Gate then that put me off. Seemed to be little to no surprise/reaction to the announcement that one of the most sought-after people in the entire Seven Kingdoms had just arrived at the Eyrie's doorstep.

It makes me wonder how much news actually reaches the Vale. (King's Landing is like, right there...)

[Xall]

snip

You. I like you.

[Andrey]

biggest cliche-fest HBOor cable television has ever put on screen

i am not sure that show runners understand world written in those long fat books

it's like there exist some programme that converts every literary work into stupid on-the nose dumbed down predictable Hollywood flick

expected framing, camera work.

extremely mediocre and over dramatic music....

it's sad because there are so many great "main" actors here

some of them are as mediocre and overdramatic as show, but alfie allen, nikolai coster, sophie turner, pascal, his on screen concubine that started in hob's rome.. and many more are great and often wrongly used.... like when you see great young drama actor wasting career and making money on bad franchise flicks, superhero movies, zombie -vampire cahsins. like robert sheehan

and nicholas hoult and many, many more

the fact that d&d will show, visualize to the world the end of grrm 20-year long narrative

sends shivers down my spine like nothing in life regarding art consummation

Edited June 2, 2014 by Andrey

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

I didn’t get my eeeeelllliiiiiaaaaaa, but I don’t care, because that was fucking awesome.

The sansa stuff was interesting. one of my most fistpumpingly awesome moments in the books is when lf reveals his plans to her at the end of affc. It looks like we aren’t going to get that, but I don’t really care. her stuff was really really good. she really is a player now. that was great. I’m not sure where they’re going with it, but I have faith.

The arya thing is why histarical laughter is weird. My family was just confused.

Overall, I think this might be my favorite episode of all time. I absolutely loved every moment. Really good stuff.

I like the grey worm/missandei story. Its kind of cute. Just like I absolutely loved the sam/gilly scenes

By the way, it blows my mind how people can live post while watching the show. Great multitasking

[Damorian]

Not bad, and while it WAS gorliy effective in terms of what was there, I'm slightly gob-smacked they left the much hyped trial by combat to the last rushed five minutes, much as per the bear pit scene in E08 last year.

Couldn't believe it when I looked at the clock, it was nearing the 50 min. mark and the fight had only just got going! Presumed that like the Purple wedding, it was pretty much locked to be a 15-20 minute segment at least? Weird.

Overall all, I love the show and the hard work that goes into it, so will be sticking with it in S5, but tbh, by this point in S4, they also seem to have replicated the massive problem of season 2 with their finale BIG time, i.e: left way too much for even a (marginally) extended final episode.

The certain upshot now, since E09 seems solely centred on the wall and the battle for castle black, is that one or more of the remaining plotlines WILL end up feeling rushed and short-changed in a 60 minute finale (and no, it won't be 66 at all after titles, credits and/or recap. More like 60 tops. Knowing that is sadly based on past experience.)

That's not really a statement of opinion; having followed this show from the beginning and watched how it either allocates too much time or subtracts too little time from scenes - ESPECAILLY when placed under pressure of the clock - it's more one based on mathematical fact.

The good news: I fully expect them to nail Tyrion's climactic scenes in 4x10, but at what cost? Whose story will end up becoming the new "what the hell just happened with Theon at Winterfell?" or Houses of Healing, condensed and truncated into baffling insignificance? Which massively powerful moment will come out Robbwind-disappointing in the wash?

Since they've clearly excised Arya's vision of Nymeria, this is arguably the episode that should at least have established some hanging Freys showing up with salt stuffed in their mouths in the Riverlands. They didn't so if LS DOES show, prepare yourself for cries of "jumping the shark!" & "Deus Ex Machina!" from non-readers because of that frustrating oversight - zero set up has been done.

Ideally this one would have been a longer 58-59 mins cut.

They needed to check in with Bran and co.

They needed to effect the Hound's demise, at least in part (much better set up here, admittedly) and get Arya in position ready from Braavos.

They needed to squeeze at least one iota of emotion from Kit Harrington who has been appalling this season where I've always defended his acting in the past.

Ditto Emilia Clarke, whose coldly imperious queen routine is wearing so thin now, it almost robbed another rushed (hugely rushed through) scene in the banishment of Jorah of any real sense of this being a two-way tragedy. So thank god for Ramin's score and Ian Glenn.

It's also worth bearing in mind that as good as it may be, The Watchers on The Wall is highly unlikely to surpass Blackwater in peoples' minds, especially since characters like Jon, Ygritte & Stannis are among the lesser favourites, performance-wise, compared to the Kings' Landing crowd. It can compete SFX-wise, but that's about it, most likely.

Which means that taken as a whole, so much is riding on the finale as to how S4 will be remembered: success or patchy failure?

Trashing things is not in my nature, so hope springs eternal and all that ... but my gut feeling by this point if I'm honest, no matter how hard I try to banish it, is that despite some standout scenes in individual episodes, time is running out to stop season 4 becoming the runt of the litter.

Prove me wrong, show. Prove me wrong. :crying:

.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Damorian

[ovis alba]

The Beetle story was weird. I sort of got the point, put it just felt like it took away time from other stuff and I was waiting the whole time for some sort of "evil" Tyrion who in the end admits that he just started smashing beetles himself to see what is the point and realised it just feels damn good and powerful and then smashing the beetle in his hands.

[aussiegirl]

That was a very good episode and very rough to watch!

I honestly can say that there wasn't any scene I didn't like. And the acting was top notch except for Sansa's scene where she is sewing. Sophie Turner swallowed half her words there.

Loved the whole Arya/Hound scene. Like that there are so many interpretations about why she laughed and their discussion about killers. Although I'm not sure how they are going to end them for the season. They only have one more episode left and that one is packed.

Really liked littlefinger in this episode. I hope they are going to do something interesting with Little Robin. Because he's not supposed to make it, I actually hope he does. I hope he grows up to become Lord of the Vale in his own right and screws everyone else's plans up.

Roose is back. I only like Ramsay when he is with Roose. Still don't care about Theon/Reek.

I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying that Arya outed herself. It was the Hound that did that.

[Florina Laufeyson]

stuff

Even more than season 2? I dunno, season 2 was kinda gnarly, mang. You got a point but i really dont think its as bad as season 2.

[Andrey]

i love hate facebook comments under westeros.org review

"did comic book from simpson wrote this, geeze"

apparently when you write constructive criticism with arguments, elaboration, knowledge and cultural examples you're the most stereotypical caricature of nerd

like reviewers are the nerds that bitch, not people with teamsport fans generic arguments

that's way many book apologist (not all, mind you) scream: "better something, than anything" "it was fucking EPIC dude" (using just that word like it means something, in other words they're totally inarticulate) like the dumbest kids in my the literature analysis class ("Camus put the lost dog "subplot" in The Stranger to prolong the short book")

Edited June 2, 2014 by Andrey

[red5_standinby]

I had a totally different view on Arya's laughter. She was laughnig at the Hound. Remember, he is still on her list, so she doesn't like him. She despises him, and would have left him had she had the chance to survive a trip on her own. He's been trying to ransom her for some time now, but once again, time has prevented him from getting what he wanted. She was laughng in his face.

[Jorah the Explorer]

Just checked and the beetle scene went on for six minutes. SIX MINUTES! Such a waste of time, considering some of the other scenes could have used a bit more length.

[Druze]

Lots of changes but I found I could live with most of them.

They’ve added Moat Cailin to the credits, but still no Eyrie? WTF?

Moletown – good to show the attack. I guess it was good to have a named character (Gilly) there to witness it. By the way, I noticed that there was less nudity in the brothel than they would typically show. Hoping that’s the direction in which they’re heading. A much as I hated the farting of Bear and the Maiden Fair, it was a welcome break from naked whores number 59 to 63 on the screen.

Missendei/Grey Worm – So, are they now saying that Unsullied have penes? I always thought everything was removed… I do get that they need attractive people to show naked/having sex, especially if you believe the story that Emilia has refused any more explicit scenes, but that seems a little weird. Both actors are very good looking, though, and their story is kinda nice if you don’t know about all the stuff being eliminated from the books to incorporate their romance. But what was with Missendei’s delayed reaction in covering herself?

Theon/Ramsay – Alfie Allen continues to be flawless as Theon/Reek. I liked the way the ironborn guy got axed in the head—it reminded me to Theon getting bonked on the head during his epic speech about capturing Winterfell. LOVED Theon regressing into Reek when challenged and then regaining his Theon-ness when that guy was killed. I liked how they showed the renaming of Ramsay and the explanation that the Boltons now = the North. However, they have done away with all other Northerners in the show (Umbers, Mormonts, etc.) so it will be strange if/when they show any sort of reaction/rebellion against the Boltons. Also, why did Ramsay refer to “a new home” BEFORE he was legitimized –he hasn’t been given Winterfell yet…

The new Sansa – I really liked this approach with Sansa being honest then manipulative. I think it works for the older Sansa, because Sophie Turner is too old and too tall to be taken seriously as a frightened child. The problem is that so many people know that she is Sansa—everyone knows that the more people who know a secret, the less likely it is to stay a secret. Also, it looks like they may be heading for “relations” between “Manipulative” Sansa and Petyr. Not sure I can watch that if it comes…

Where is Sweetrobin going? I’m assuming that they didn’t want to pay for snow special effects on the Eyrie (or they’ve forgotten that Winter is Coming) so they had to come up with another reason for them to leave…BTW, I was thinking that they could have made Sansa blonde instead of brunette—that way they could simply have allowed the actress to go to her natural hair color…

Jorah’s exile – I’m glad they kept it in, but why a pardon from Robert Baratheon? Why would it take so long to reach them—Robert died 3 seasons ago! Jorah might have been able to explain it away by saying that he subsequently switched allegiences. Wouldn’t a pardon from Joffrey have made more sense—since that would demonstrate recent betrayal? Also, I thought Dany should have shown some indecision here based on the many things that Jorah has done for her. She always seemed ungrateful in the books (but even there she wanted to forgive him), and this made her seem doubly so. Instead, we got Her Imperiousness Daenerys Stormborn. Also, why wasn’t she looking at Jorah when condemning him? The way she was looking over him seemed stupid to me. I would have been okay if I thought it meant indecision, but it didn’t appear to.

A random crackpot theory popped into my head in this scene—Barristan’s dismissal from the KG by Cersei and Joffrey was a sham and a way to get him into Dany’s inner circle so that he can hurt her from within her own army!

The Hound and Arya – Nice foreshadowing to her future as a Faceless Person, including her ability to kill people in whatever manner was available. I liked the irony of them arriving at the Eyrie after Lysa’s death. However, I would have preferred it to be clearer that her laughing was hysteria, not humor…

As much as I adore Jaime and Tyrion together, I thought that scene was painfully long. I would have preferred to spend the time with Oberyn

The Trial – Pedro Pascal is THE MAN and killed this scene (until it killed him). His lines could have been cheesy, but he delivered them well. That flipping around and fighting was AWESOME. Only issues I had were no “Eliiiiiaaaa!”(but I'll survive) and the exploding melon head--c’mon Special Effects, you could have done better. I’m not a fan of seeing bodily functions on the screen, but Tyrion vomiting would have been great here. This scene could have been a couple of minutes longer too, to include more of the preparation.

The pardon wasn't 3 years late nor from Robert Baratheon but was rather a cunning Tywin Lannister removing one of Dani's two seasoned Westerosi advisers by exposing his past transgressions. They talked about her a couple episodes back in a session of the small council and Tywin was informed that she has able advisors at her side. In classic Tywin fashion he sent a letter in a dead man's name that he knew would drive a wedge in her advisors and of course Poor Robert Baratheon will get the blame for the exposing of Norah while Tywin keeps his hand clean like he did with the red wedding by letting the hate fall mostly on the Frey's

[Verily No One]

I wouldn't mind the Missandei/Greyworm scene if it wasn't at the expense of other characters/storylines from the books. They have so little time and so much ground to cover and they add on these immaterial IMHO subplots. Why not flush out Jon's/Stannis' characters.

Could not agree more.