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[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion

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Really found to episode to be excellent and actually pretty hysticarical, which was needed given the weight of the Oberyn death scene, the serious turn with Jorah's departure and Tyrion's impending change of scenery.

That stretch of 10 minutes or so though where we got Arya laughing after hearing her aunt was dead while Sandor stands dumbfounded, Littlefinger mentioning "Some people die on their chamber pots" (wink wink, nudge nudge) and then the faces Jaime and Tyrion make while imitating the beetle-smashing was just fantastic. If someone finds/makes a gif of that last scene please let me know; it's gold.

Great ep. IMO.

everyone is focusing on the chamber pot comment, but does anyone think the dying on the bed and at a dinner comment is actually foreshadowing too. Lot of people speculate that cersei will be strangled in her sleep. I wonder who might die at a dinner.

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Thought it was an excellent scene. Showed us Tyrion's mental state with the fear of possibly facing his own death that is completely out of his own hands, and trying to find meaning behind the possibly meaningless. Like wondering if God (or the Gods) are just a kid with a magnifying glass burning aunts when he gets bored.

Yes exactly. Tyrion spells out why ASOIAF is so compelling. The horror of insatiable sociopaths running amok.

Also provided a nice recap of the entire episode: Wildlings slaughtering people in Mole's town, Ramsay needlessly flaying and killing every Ironborn, Littlefinger being Littlefinger.

There are a lot of ways to interpret Tyrion's dialogue but as I see we all get similar conclusions. Is for this kind of dialogues why I like the series, because the showrunners make you think and analize what is really happening and not only show you sex, blood and war.

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Happy to see I'm not alone here -- my least favorite episode to date. I love the justifications I'm seeing here for the beetle scene as well, because using someone with a mental handicap as an analogy for the blind evils in the world somehow became synonymous with good writing...

On a positive note, the fight was accurate enough for me not to have any glaring complaints, regardless of how difficult it was to watch.

I see a heartfelt and introspective monologue, illuminating the fundamental values and beliefs your beloved, soon to be dead, brother lived by, just as good as what GRRM has in the books. Labeling it as bad writing because it isn't true to the mythos of the books, or whatever absurd criteria you have is just bad form. Considering there are too few scenes to even compare it too in the series, you can ignore the books and be glad they get character developemnt like this in the show. If you don't like the rare chance to have a 5 minuteish stretch for one character to show his chops and really delve into his character, I don't know why you are even still watching the show.

Edited by Tony Stark

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Hi everyone! First post here on the forum - woohoo! I saw this thought on my facebook and think it's so true -- did anyone else get a 'Princess Bride' "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die" feel to the scene? haha! I thought the scene was great! Sorry if anyone else mentioned this already, I haven't read through the whole feed.


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There is one incorrect way to interpret it and its this: That its pointless and adds nothing to the narrative.

That story adds a lot to Tyrion's character development, where his character is going, why he suddenly slips into Sherlock Scan Mode in ADWD material, and a layer of absurdity in this world of Cracksack. It also reflects on a lot of other arcs. Arya's murder motives, Brienne's fruitless search, Cersei's idiocy and handling the realm, Ramsay's brutality, Dany's fumbling of the responsibilities of ruling, etc.

Its there for a reason and it works. Sorry Beetle Haters, but deal with it.

Definitely not pointless. I thought it as more of a "hey, we're about to do something that will make no sense to you and we realize we've been doing this for a while." Kind of prepping the non-readers for Tyrion losing the trial by combat.

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I caught the episode late...yes, I knew what was coming, but there's no way to not react to something as horrific as that. I got a bit queasy afterwards. I will definitely not be rewatching that scene.

I agree with the others that the episode didn't flow well, bug I don't know if it's because of the story itself or the fact that I wanted to see the fight already.

Can't wait for next week :)

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everyone is focusing on the chamber pot comment, but does anyone think the dying on the bed and at a dinner comment is actually foreshadowing too. Lot of people speculate that cersei will be strangled in her sleep. I wonder who might die at a dinner.

I mean, we've already seen quite a few people die at a dinner and LF is obviously aware of that fact but yes, dying in the bed should probably be focused on as well. Is there a general Jaime-is-the-valonqar thread anywhere?

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Is it more confusing than just people being sick and dying for no reason?

Yes because there are dead bodies all around them which bring disease. If they had started talking about bog devils the show watchers would have either totally missed it, or heard it and with no background information to explain it they would have just glossed over it.

Show watchers don't know who the Crannogmen are, what they do with their weapons etc. They don't even really know where Jojen/Meera come from in my experience.

Edited by NightStark

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As a whole, the episode was good, I'd give it about a 7.75.



Highlights were the Moat Cailin scenes and Ramsay/Roose moments, Sansa turning the Lords (and Lady Anya) into her BFFs and protectors while taking the heat off Littlefinger, and the Viper/Mountain duel (except for the last moments, which I deliberately did not watch).



Alfie Allen nailed it as the frightened, conflicted Reek trying to summon up an identity that he is too traumatized to believe in anymore. Ramsay actually sold me on his joy at being rewarded by his father with the Bolton name. (wonder if TV-Bolton realizes that he's just signed his and Walda's death warrants; no way that even TV-Ramsay will just sit by and wait for Walda to pop out a baby boy to supplant his chance at lordship).



While we've left the mothership with Sansa's revelations to the Vale-lords, Sophie Turner sold Sansa's anger and misery at her experiences of the past years very well. And that cool little look between her and Littlefinger, as Sansa is being lovingly embraced by Lady Waynwood, was marvelous. I'm still surprised by the rapport between Littlefinger and young Robin; completely different from the books. Maybe they're setting up LF's perfidy by having him apparently be kind to the kid before starting to poison him.



I thought the fight between The Mountain and the Viper was well done; but it should have been a minute or two longer. (his squire looked a lot like Olyvar from the brothel, anyone know who it was?)



What I didn't like so much: the opening scene with drunken patrons and prostitutes in Moles Town - too long; its only relevance was, I guess, to flesh out the wretches that the Wildlings were about to slaughter and remind us that Gilly and her baby are there too. Didn't work for me; I felt no empathy for anyone other than Gilly. And sparing Gilly does not redeem Ygritte as far as I'm concerned; what did the unarmed whores ever do to her, not to mention the innocent villagers she cheerfully slaughtered in the earlier episode.



I was also less than thrilled by the length of Tyrion's story about his beetle-killing cousin. I guess it was meant to be a comment about the immorality of senseless violence, but it didn't quite work for me.



I've been enjoying the development of the Grey Worm/Missandei relationship. That probably portends one, or both of them, being gruesomely slaughtered at some future date.



What else didn't work for me? Arya laughing idiotically at the news of her aunt's death. I just didn't think the character would do that. She didn't know that her aunt was crazy and had tried to murder her sister. I would have thought that Arya might be slightly saddened that yet another member of her extended family, perhaps the last powerful adult who could be relied on to help her, was dead.



As for scared maiden Sansa suddenly morphing into Dark Goth Sexy Game Player Sansa...well, we'll see what happens there. It did happen a bit fast, as had been noted by others. I would guess D&D wanted to fast-forward into TWOW territory, but it should have happened with at least one interim step.


Edited by Raksha 2014

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Anyone thinking that with Ramsey Bolton's new name & Dad's "northern" geography lesson, followed by the gang's march toward Winterfell & the emphasis of the Bolton position of Wardens of the North, we likely will NOT get fArya? Cuz who needs her now?

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Yes because there are dead bodies all around them which bring disease. If they had started talking about bog devils the show watchers would have either totally missed it, or heard it and with no background information to explain it they would have just glossed over it.

Show watchers don't know who the Crannogmen are, what they do with their weapons etc. They don't even really know where Jojen/Meera come from in my experience.

Nah...it will be touched on later. Trust me. We havent seen the last of Moat Cailin and we'll get more info on it when more time is spent there. Keeping the illness something of a mystery is actually clever and sets up for a future crannog revelation.

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I would have liked him demanding to know who gave the order if he hadn't pointed right to Tywin. It's like they're literally saying some people aren't going to be smart enough to remember the answer. Let's tell them as he asks. It's insulting.

Did it need to be subtle? I mean, it's ok to keep the suspense, and to allow people to dig their own conclusions, but Oberyn's hate towards Tywin was no secret since the first episode, and it was plainly set. Oberyn demanding Gregor to sell out Tywin while pointing him is rather a passional reaction, that I think fitted perfectly to the situation.

HBO!Oberyn was willing to bring them both down at the same time: more subtleness wouldn't have worked in this heated all-or-nothing fight, I think.

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I mean, we've already seen quite a few people die at a dinner and LF is obviously aware of that fact but yes, dying in the bed should probably be focused on as well. Is there a general Jaime-is-the-valonqar thread anywhere?

Didn't Robert die in his bed? Or maybe a reference to the failed assassination of Bran? Isn't that enough?

Yes because there are dead bodies all around them which bring disease. If they had started talking about bog devils the show watchers would have either totally missed it, or heard it and with no background information to explain it they would have just glossed over it.

Show watchers don't know who the Crannogmen are, what they do with their weapons etc. They don't even really know where Jojen/Meera come from in my experience.

A little love for the book readers is not unprecedented. I just felt they rushed the scene but that's probably just because I'm unreservedly pro-Crannogmen and House Reed.

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Did it need to be subtle? I mean, it's ok to keep the suspense, and to allow people to dig their own conclusions, but Oberyn's hate towards Tywin was no secret since the first episode, and it was plainly set. Oberyn demanding Gregor to sell out Tywin while pointing him is rather a passional reaction, that I think fitted perfectly to the situation.

HBO!Oberyn was willing to bring them both down at the same time: more subtleness wouldn't have worked in this heated all-or-nothing fight, I think.

Fits in with my Oberyn is trying to die theory quite nicely. I'm okay with it.

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Oberyn vs The Mountain was the most intense chapter of fiction I think I have ever read. I remember my heart pounding through the scene, the tangible feeling of excitement as the guy I was backing went into full revenge mode. Every move he made was visceral, full of hate for the man that (raped and) killed his sister and her children.



This was, quite frankly, ruined in the show. Don't get me wrong, the fight was exciting. The choreography was great. I know the unsullied were on the edge of their seats, so that's a point for D&D (fwiw). But the raw emotion that fueled Oberyn was COMPLETELY GONE. He was SMILING half of the time, twirling his spear and literally looking to the crowd for confirmation. I just can't help but feel like that scene lost a lot of its weight from replacing his anger (his primary motivation for the fight in the first place) with gleeful showmanship. To be fair, near the end of the fight, when Oberyn smelled the blood in the water, when he was closing in on the kill, his character showed this a lot more, but why didn't they just do it right from the start?



The majority of what I'm reading is just praising the scene, but I can't understand it...


Edited by theramblingfool

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Nah...it will be touched on later. Trust me. We havent seen the last of Moat Cailin and we'll get more info on it when more time is spent there. Keeping the illness something of a mystery is actually clever and sets up for a future crannog revelation.

Very doubtful. They're shaving off characters everywhere, they're not going to add in a thread about hobbits with poisoned spears. It doesn't even have much significance in the book truth be told.

Edited by NightStark

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