[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion

[Ilúvatar]

I thought this exact same way for a long time, but you've just got to let it go. The TV show is not supposed to follow the book. The books are simply good source material and that's it. The show stands on its own. For me, it's actually more enjoyable that way. When the show first started to "go off script," I was a little offended. Now I welcome it. I don't want to know what's going to happen with every little subplot. Give me some surprises.

For me the issue is less that they're deviating from the books, and more that I don't believe the writers are anywhere near competent enough to do ASOIAF justice with their fanfiction. Some of it turned out quite well, like Tywin encountering Arya, but most of it has been substandard garbage that's barely fit for a bad action movie or a daytime soap opera. I seriously worry for future seasons because it sounds like the fanfiction will only increase.

[Tyrion1991]

Yep, they managed to make Dany look like an ungrateful bitch whos making the wrong decision.

For me they really needed to hammer home how betrayed and hurt she was over the fact that her bear did this to her. Plus, Jorah is a lot more contrite than he is in the books and doesn't argue with Daenerys "us sewer rats saved your city" where hes indignant with her. As it is, Dany, especially at the end of the scene, comes across as way too hateful how shes staring him down. In the books, she can't bring herself to look at him as hes dragged out and has to excuse herself because shes that upset about it. Indeed, when she first hears about his spying (which we don't see in the show admittedly) shes reduced to tears.

Plus, the part where Dany says "don't you ever dare presume to touch me or call me by name". That is true to the books and I am sort of glad it was put in. But it makes no sense in the context of the show as its specifically referring to the chapter where he kissed her and called her Daenerys. Jorah in the show has never once, that I can think of called her by name or presumed to touch her. So this just comes across as a venomous retort whereas in the books its making reference to his prior bad conduct. A far better line, especially in light of last weeks argument, would have been to retain when she says "you told me to trust nobody else but you", yet the show conspicuously removed those lines.

Theres also not the same of sense of shock when she repeatedly asks him if he told them about Drogos child. In the books this is something which it takes a few chapters for her to realize this and its "something unspeakable occured to her". Indeed, when she initially finds out about the spying she refuses to believe it. But in this scene, there is no sense of shock or disbelief, which makes it seem like Dany is far too quick to pass judgement and doesn't take it any where near as badly.

This was not a moment for the imperious Queen routine and it really harmed Danys portrayal. Its particularly worrying because the "inside the episode" videos lay such stress on how betrayed and hurt Dany is but they've specifically removed those aspects from the books in their adaptation and focused exclusively on the arrogant stern Queenly figure passing judgement.

Plus, in the background, this is obviously a forgery by Tywin Lannister due to his lines last week in the council and because in the show we saw Jorah get given the real pardon in season 1. So it actually is a forgery even if it is true. The show even hammers the point home by having Jorah point out that creating discord is in the interests of Tywin. Its like big flashing lights shouting "Danys making a stupid mistake" and this really colors her actions in a negative in what should be a very personal matter. In this context its obvious that Dany should just keep Jorah on and simply end how close they are too eachother due to their broken trust. Exiling him is not in her interests and whilst that might be also true in the books GRRM is much more subtle and point isn't really made until ADWD after the decision that Jorah was kind of useful to have around.

[ache]

So she should sell out the guy who singlehandedly saved her from Joffrey and then from Lysa shoving her out of a 2 mile dead drop? Seems like decent motivation to save his skin just once...

Yeah...The same guy who set her up to be blamed for the murder of the king and provoked her aunt's rage by creeping on her. I don't think it counts as her "selling him out" if she had refused to lie for him. Sounds more like justice to me.

[Chebyshov]

Yeah...The same guy who set her up to be blamed for the murder of the king and provoked her aunt's rage by creeping on her. I don't think it counts as her "selling him out" if she had refused to lie for him. Sounds more like justice to me.

Agreed, but as she said, better the devil you know. I think her actions made sense in the context of the show.

[Mel_Rose]

I'm surprised they fully showed Oberyns death, and i can honestly say that was the most brutal and gory thing i've seen on TV.

no tyrion vomit? i think i want to vomit

:agree: on both counts

It was horrific, just horrific, the sight of the head and the screams... the ep ended and I was so hypertense I didn't know what to do with myself.

So, ahem, well done show.

[aFeastForDragons]

That was very rough to watch.

[direwolves_and_dragons]

Tyrion 1991, agree with you completely on the Jorah front. They needed to include the kiss in my opinion (even if they had added it later, that would have been cool, perhaps as an act of desperation once he learns she is sleeping with Daario, I just think it is necessary for the context). Despite him being a dick in the books and arguing with her even after I still felt a little sorry for him, but completely understood why and what Dany was doing (irrelevant that I think she later comes to regret it, he did massively f*** up and refuse to accept his mistake) but in the series, I just felt completely for him, admired Ser Barristan, and hated the way they portrayed Dany here.

Thought rest of the episode was sik, only other reservation, Missandei and Grey Worm, I have no issue with, as such but I will always want more screen time material that is more relevant to the books.

[MoIaF]

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

Amen. To. That. I'm just glad that I knew when to turn my head away. :fencing:

Ha! I know, that's the good thing about having read the books you know when to look away.

[wolverine]

The Blast From the Past: I never liked Obyreyn Martel for a simple reason: he was a loudmouth who was more style than substance, talked a big game and never backed it up; a man whose reputation far exceeded the man he was, and who seemed preoccupied with being right more than he ever was occupied with winning. So, he lost. He lost because he could not keep his mouth shut; he lost because he wasn’t as good as he thought, he lost because he underestimated a man who’s reputation BELIED underestimation; he lost because he thought he was touched by gods, when, in fact, he was just touched by a Mountain.

And he lost because he thought he had one up on Tywin. Yeah… no.

I cheered, just like I did in the books, just like I knew I would watching it. The fight and the buildup were perfect (the fight could have been longer, BUT … getting two actors who have LIMITED sword/spear fighting abilities to choreograph a fight is … really fucking hard- anything more would have been greedy). Plus, the show’s ability to switch around from the books left us all wondering…. Hey could Oberyn win this thing?

And he didn’t; it was fucking amazing.

Sad clown faces for everyone!

Oh, one more thing… he screamed like a girl…. HA!

So he wasn't any good? He thoroughly whipped one of the best warriors in the Seven Kingdoms. Oberyn died because he got too close to the strongest known man in the Seven Kingdoms as he lay dying due to wounds inflicted by Oberyn. So I really don't understand how Oberyn was not as good as he thought? Did you watch/read the same fight? The Mountain was pinned to the ground with Oberyn's spear through his chest.

He lost because he tried to elicit a confession implicating Tywin instead of just finishing off the Mountain or staying another foot away during his interrogation.

[MoIaF]

:( yes there will be and then its almost over. I can't believe finally Jorah is banished.

I can't believe there are only two episodes left, this season has just flown by.

Yes, pretty soon Jorah will be meeting up with Tyrion, can't wait for that.

[Carl Rhaego]

I wanted to love this episode, I tried. But I hated it.

Negatives:

- Jorah's banishment was yet another shitty, terribly rushed Meereen scene this season. Way too short and no build-up. Instead of all the filler this season they could have shown the kiss and some arguments between the two to build their conflict like in the books. The banishment was the culmination of a long growing tension between Dany and Jorah in the books. Dany was terribly hurt and crying. In the show, she's the usual cold hearted ice queen, no emotion, nothing. The scene fell completely flat. These two have been together from the first episode, it should have been a bigger, more emotional scene.

- Sansa's development is too quick. The disney witch dress made me lol. They should have given her a hat and a broom. Littlefinger's voice is laughably evil, he sounds like a demon with asthma.

- Yeah, we get it Wildlings are really one-dimensional and evil and kill innocent people. But Ygritte is not as evil as the others, I mean she likes babies! So please be emotional when she dies.

- Yay, another ten minute scene with Tyrion and Jaime talking in the cell. Why would we build-up the duel or do some other more important scene when we can have the tenth version of Tyrion in his cell.

- Women bath completely naked and flash their tits for the camera for a long while before covering themselves. Men bath with their pants on and keep their whole body underwater with only their head peaking out so they don't distract from the naked women. It is known.

- Duel was too short. Head crushing was cartoony as hell, I felt like watching The Walking Dead.

Positives:

- Missandei has an amazing body. As unnecessary as the scene was, that needs to be said.

- Alfie Allen is amazing. I just want to reach through the screen and hug him.

- Pedro Pascal was amazing, but sadly underused.

- Arya's laugh.

[johndance]

!

Edited June 2, 2014 by johndance

[Clariana]

pretty sure her running to Cersei is not in the series

Uh, yes it was.

[Mark Antony]

Uh, yes it was.

I really don't think it was in the show :dunno:

[Floke]

Uh, yes it was.

It wasn't. We see the Hound intercepting her ("who do you think sent me?") and then her in front of part of the Small Council, with Cersei telling her her father's a traitor and urging her to write a letter to Winterfell.

[Haldebrandt]

Not bad, and while it WAS gorliy effective in terms of what was there, I'm slightly gob-smacked they left the much hyped trial by combat to the last rushed five minutes, much as per the bear pit scene in E08 last year.

Couldn't believe it when I looked at the clock, it was nearing the 50 min. mark and the fight had only just got going! Presumed that like the Purple wedding, it was pretty much locked to be a 15-20 minute segment at least? Weird.

Overall all, I love the show and the hard work that goes into it, so will be sticking with it in S5, but tbh, by this point in S4, they also seem to have replicated the massive problem of season 2 with their finale BIG time, i.e: left way too much for even a (marginally) extended final episode.

The certain upshot now, since E09 seems solely centred on the wall and the battle for castle black, is that one or more of the remaining plotlines WILL end up feeling rushed and short-changed in a 60 minute finale (and no, it won't be 66 at all after titles, credits and/or recap. More like 60 tops. Knowing that is sadly based on past experience.)

That's not really a statement of opinion; having followed this show from the beginning and watched how it either allocates too much time or subtracts too little time from scenes - ESPECAILLY when placed under pressure of the clock - it's more one based on mathematical fact.

The good news: I fully expect them to nail Tyrion's climactic scenes in 4x10, but at what cost? Whose story will end up becoming the new "what the hell just happened with Theon at Winterfell?" or Houses of Healing, condensed and truncated into baffling insignificance? Which massively powerful moment will come out Robbwind-disappointing in the wash?

Since they've clearly excised Arya's vision of Nymeria, this is arguably the episode that should at least have established some hanging Freys showing up with salt stuffed in their mouths in the Riverlands. They didn't so if LS DOES show, prepare yourself for cries of "jumping the shark!" & "Deus Ex Machina!" from non-readers because of that frustrating oversight - zero set up has been done.

Ideally this one would have been a longer 58-59 mins cut.

They needed to check in with Bran and co.

They needed to effect the Hound's demise, at least in part (much better set up here, admittedly) and get Arya in position ready from Braavos.

They needed to squeeze at least one iota of emotion from Kit Harrington who has been appalling this season where I've always defended his acting in the past.

Ditto Emilia Clarke, whose coldly imperious queen routine is wearing so thin now, it almost robbed another rushed (hugely rushed through) scene in the banishment of Jorah of any real sense of this being a two-way tragedy. So thank god for Ramin's score and Ian Glenn.

It's also worth bearing in mind that as good as it may be, The Watchers on The Wall is highly unlikely to surpass Blackwater in peoples' minds, especially since characters like Jon, Ygritte & Stannis are among the lesser favourites, performance-wise, compared to the Kings' Landing crowd. It can compete SFX-wise, but that's about it, most likely.

Which means that taken as a whole, so much is riding on the finale as to how S4 will be remembered: success or patchy failure?

Trashing things is not in my nature, so hope springs eternal and all that ... but my gut feeling by this point if I'm honest, no matter how hard I try to banish it, is that despite some standout scenes in individual episodes, time is running out to stop season 4 becoming the runt of the litter.

Prove me wrong, show. Prove me wrong. :crying:

.

Thank you for expressing my feelings exactly. Pillars, stones, and beetles wasted at least 10 invaluable minutes.

[johndance]

There was Sansa getting SweetRobin down the mountain with Myranda and Mya and then reuniting with Littlefinger, which advanced her metamorphasis from scared Sansa Stark to Littlefinger's Apprentice slowly and believably. While I though Sophie Turner did very well with the lines she was given, I found it harder to believe that in one or two days, Sansa goes from terrified, victimized (physically by Lysa, sexually by Littlefinger with that unsolicited kiss) girl to a cunning manipulator capable of selling 'lies and Arbor gold' to lords (and a lady) three times her age and surprising Littlefinger himself, not to mention the acknowledgment of Littlefinger's sexual interest in her.

At first I was disappointed that a lot of this stuff would probably be left out but now thinking about it I see no reason why they couldn't still include it. All they really did was move up Sansa's little 'transformation' if you will to happen earlier in the plot. And I mean we all knew she was starting to learn the game anyway so it shouldn't come as that big of a shocker. I think Sophie is nailing it right now. Her acting was spot on from the lines to even the little mannerisms and smirks she gives to kind of emphasis that in her head she knows whats going on.

Not to mention we've seen scared, crying, depressed Sansa for the past 2 1/2 seasons. Nice to see her finally put it all together.

I've seen a few times people questioning how she goes from scarred, crying in front of Lysa to manipulator, player in the game almost overnight. The more I thought about this, it makes so much sense. LF tipped his hand when he kissed her. She knows he wants her now. Think back to season 2 the blackwater episode when Cersei is talking to Sansa during the sack. She tells Sansa "Tears aren't a woman's only weapon. The best one is in between your legs"

For the past 2 seasons Sansa has been receiving these little 'lessons'. She's prepped and ready to pull off something like this. She sees an opportunity, knows how the game needs to be played, and pulls it off.

I'm not worried about the show being caught up to 'book Sansa's story'. We just got some of it early and out of order. She has dark hair now, only the 3 people who were questioning her about Lysa's death know her real identity and because of her performance they promise not to tell anyone. She's Alayne Stone now. We can still see a lot of the stuff with 'Robin', Mya Stone, etc.

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

sorry haven't read the whole thread, keeps updating too fast....but did anyone else feel that the whole beetle crushing scene was just a build up to demonstrate Tyrion's obsessive personality...foreshadowing "where do whores go?"

[aFeastForDragons]

It would have been good if it had a good outcome. Terrible terrible writing by D & D as usual.

Edited June 2, 2014 by aFeastForDragons

[Zeppelin]

My daughter sent me a text about this episode .......

"Major traumatism'ised'fuck'omg'nooooo'no'noooooo!!!!!"

I completely agree with her.

If ever the show deviated from the books, this is when I wanted it to happen. Pedral Pascal nailed the role of Oberyn.

I can't even comment on the rest of the episode, or the other book deviations of the storylines.

I'm still traumatised'fuck'omg'noooooo!!!!!