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[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion

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After nobody had mentioned it until page 26, I lost my patience and decided to write it down, no matter if it's been said since:

The beetle scene begins with Tyrion thinking about the absurdity of trials by combats, telling Jaime that this practice is saying so much about gods. What he realises here is what Arya realises before she begins to laugh - if there are gods in the world they live in, they must be cruel or mad. Arya and Tyrion develop two kinds of nihilistic reactions to the world in the first three books: Arya worships death which alone offers some sort of meaning or purpose, Tyrion is drowing himself in wine, unable to cope with his epiphany in any other way. The beetle scene was phenomenal, it was much, much more than a meta joke on GRRM killing characters or a way to foreshadow the Viper's or the Mountain's fate. It gave us a glimpse of Tyrion going dark, just as Sansa and Arya became a few shades darker in the episode. Give D&D some credit for their writing, it's a lot more clever and thought through than many posters here seem to realise.

No

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So does Missandei + Grey Worm (either as reunited family - likely - or lovers - less likely) mean the Unsullied won't be joining Dany in her eventual trip to Westeros?

I'd argue her reunion with the Dothraki means Dany is about to leave everything and (almost) everyone behind in Meereen. As the leader of the Unsullied, if Grey Worm is convinced by Missandei to return to his original home the other Unsullied may do the same .. and therefore wraps up those characters' stories nicely while trimming the herd so to speak for Dany's journey across the Narrow Sea.

Nah, I don't think so for one (or two reasons) : Rhaegal and Viserion...She won't leave them behind.

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After nobody had mentioned it until page 26, I lost my patience and decided to write it down, no matter if it's been said since:

The beetle scene begins with Tyrion thinking about the absurdity of trials by combats, telling Jaime that this practice is saying so much about gods. What he realises here is what Arya realises before she begins to laugh - if there are gods in the world they live in, they must be cruel or mad. Arya and Tyrion develop two kinds of nihilistic reactions to the world in the first three books: Arya worships death which alone offers some sort of meaning or purpose, Tyrion is drowing himself in wine, unable to cope with his epiphany in any other way. The beetle scene was phenomenal, it was much, much more than a meta joke on GRRM killing characters or a way to foreshadow the Viper's or the Mountain's fate. It gave us a glimpse of Tyrion going dark, just as Sansa and Arya became a few shades darker in the episode. Give D&D some credit for their writing, it's a lot more clever and thought through than many posters here seem to realise.

Well I got as much from it as anybody...The cousin squashing the beetles is a parallel to God's destroying human beings for no apparent reason and Tyrion's dismay for this fact. "There must be some reason"- he looks and looks, reads books, asks Maesters but finds no answer cause there is none to be found. Clever writing but a scene somehow misplaced...I was already looking so much forward to the fight scene I didn't pay much attention.

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Well I got as much from it as anybody...The cousin squashing the beetles is a parallel to God's destroying human beings for no apparent reason and Tyrion's dismay for this fact. "There must be some reason"- he looks and looks, reads books, asks Maesters but finds no answer cause there is none to be found. Clever writing but a scene somehow misplaced...I was already looking so much forward to the fight scene I didn't pay much attention.

Same here, I was dying during the scene, but in retrospect, it was the monologue of the season - and I dare say that we'll be remembering it come episode 10 and season 5 ...

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Can somebody explain the Barry/Jorah/Dany scene ?



Barry knew a long time ago that Jorah was sending report, so why does he bring it up now ?



Also the pardon was for Jorah but it was given to Barry, so why didn't Barry get suspicious about that ?



And surely Barry should have probably known about Robert giving Jorah a pardon since Barry was on the council.


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Can somebody explain the Barry/Jorah/Dany scene ?

Barry knew a long time ago that Jorah was sending report, so why does he bring it up now ?

Also the pardon was for Jorah but it was given to Barry, so why didn't Barry get suspicious about that ?

And surely Barry should have probably known about Robert giving Jorah a pardon since Barry was on the council.

Show Barristan wasn't on the council, he knew nothing of the betrayal, and as a loyal Kingsguard presented this news to Dany.

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Can somebody explain the Barry/Jorah/Dany scene ?

Barry knew a long time ago that Jorah was sending report, so why does he bring it up now ?

Also the pardon was for Jorah but it was given to Barry, so why didn't Barry get suspicious about that ?

And surely Barry should have probably known about Robert giving Jorah a pardon since Barry was on the council.

Barry is suffering from dementia and has conveniently forgotten everything that occurred at Small Council Meetings under Robert's rule. Or, the writer's don't give a shit. that's the only explanation ive got.

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Same here, I was dying during the scene, but in retrospect, it was the monologue of the season - and I dare say that we'll be remembering it come episode 10 and season 5 ...

Sure, something so horrendously bad will be remembered and mocked for a long time.

Edited by David Selig

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I dont understand this grey worm missandei business, dont get me wrong its a nice sub plot. But she is 12 and he is a eunuch, what is going on here?!?!

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Sure, something so horrendously bad will be remembered and mocked for a long time.

I thought it was excellent, and agree with the observation made earlier in the thread about a real Coen brothers feel to that scene.

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I dont understand this grey worm missandei business, dont get me wrong its a nice sub plot. But she is 12 and he is a eunuch, what is going on here?!?!

She is way older than 12 in the TV series. Was that not obvious in this episode? ;)

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Sure, something so horrendously bad will be remembered and mocked for a long time.

So far, it is getting more praise than hate in this thread. I'm actually sad for people who don't get moments like that one - they are missing a whole level of greatness of the show ;-)

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Hm ... explain or stop wasting forum space ...

Forum space is not a problem, but ok, I'll elaborate:

The scene was overlong, tedious, slightly offensive, clumsy, and overall, innecessary.

The imagery and metaphor was basic and pedestrian to say the least. It's meaning (if we would call it so) was painfully obvious and predictable. I'm honestly baffled at all these interpretations. It was just nihilism at its most basic: things happen for no reason, just because. Orson crushed the beetles because he could, just like the mule kicked him because it could.

Done, it was paper-thin dialogue. It was all flash and no substance. And worse of all: it was repetitive. We've seen time and time again how violence and death happens just because on this show. That's Ramsay's "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention", there's even Tyrion's "if you're looking for justice, you've come to the wrong place". Etc, etc, but of course, D&D had to belabor the point because the audience is stupid

Well, at least I hope the stupid story was about the pointlessness of it all. If it really was a metaphor of Gregor and Oberyn then I just feel sorry for these writers

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I thought Emilia did good with the Jorah exile scene- you could see her hurt and anger, yet with allot of effort she managed to keep herself composed.



What I did not like was the camera up her damn nose. The close ups were too close.


Edited by ~DarkHorse~

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So far, it is getting more praise than hate in this thread. I'm actually sad for people who don't get moments like that one - they are missing a whole level of greatness of the show ;-)

What is there not to get? It's not that deep--the fates are mercurial, life and death are random, no one knows why anyone does anything and never will, the universe is chaos, etc. etc.

It went on for much too long, the dialogue in places was awkward and rambling.

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I haven't gone through the whole thread yet, but I saw a lot of hate or disinterest re: the Grey Worm/Missandei story line. So I just wanted to give it some love. I was actually concerned that aging Missandei up would mean she replaced Irri in the "Dany is sexually frustrated" plotline, which I was not looking forward to at all. Instead, they've given her and Grey Worm a sweet - though I guess it's bitter as well - and tentative romance that helps remind me that there's still moments of goodness to be have in the midst of the unrelenting tragedy. I know they're barely supporting characters and it might feel like a waste of time, but it's also such a rare thing to actually get the stories of the downtrodden on this show. The Game of Thrones isn't just about the highborns and their power struggles - everything they do affects the commoners. Of course, Missandei and Grey Worm's lives have been much more difficult than your average ASOIAF lowborns, as they've been slaves very nearly from birth. So to watch that they do with their newfound freedom and how they relate to the world that Dany is trying to build is really refreshing to me.



As for Sansa, well, I'm still of two minds about it. I'm happy to see her taking charge, and I'm thrilled that D&D definitely grasped how she's putting together all the lessons she's learned over her years of captivity. I'm mostly just concerned that they'll push too far with Sansa/Petyr - which is definitely not something I want to see - and also that they'll forgo Sansa's core of human decency in favor of flashy game-playing tactics. Not to mention that I was hoping that Alayne "revealing" herself to be Sansa in the books would be accompanied by Littlefinger's downfall, so now I'll have to wait for another course of action. I do love how she one-upped him, though. She could have him eating out of her hand and he knows it.


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There's this Tumblr thing I saw that made a funny point about that. Hrm... ah, here.

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The scene was overlong, tedious, slightly offensive, clumsy, and overall, innecessary.

The imagery and metaphor was basic and pedestrian to say the least. It's meaning (if we would call it so) was painfully obvious and predictable. I'm honestly baffled at all these interpretations. It was just nihilism at its most basic: things happen for no reason, just because. Orson crushed the beetles because he could, just like the mule kicked him because it could.

Done, it was paper-thin dialogue. It was all flash and no substance. And worse of all: it was repetitive. We've seen time and time again how violence and death happens just because on this show. That's Ramsay's "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention", there's even Tyrion's "if you're looking for justice, you've come to the wrong place". Etc, etc, but of course, D&D had to belabor the point because the audience is stupid

Well, at least I hope the stupid story was about the pointlessness of it all. If it really was a metaphor of Gregor and Oberyn then I just feel sorry for these writers

Thanks! I don't agree at all with the first bit, but yes, it was repetitive and it was a metaphor for something the show has already made a point of at least twice. I'm sure though it was not a metaphor for Gregor and Oberyn, as I said. It was important that is was a long story with no explanation in the end - because that was what the story was about. It was painful because it happened just before the fight, not argueing that at all. I'm fine with people not liking it, I just think it's silly to call it bad writing, which it really isn't.

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