Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion

Recommended Posts

About Emilia's acting, IMO it was fine. Not "knock-it-off-the-park" good, but effective nonetheless. I pictured this scene with her crying, but in retrospect, i'm fine with the way it played.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks! I don't agree at all with the first bit, but yes, it was repetitive and it was a metaphor for something the show has already made a point of at least twice. I'm sure though it was not a metaphor for Gregor and Oberyn, as I said. It was important that is was a long story with no explanation in the end - because that was what the story was about. It was painful because it happened just before the fight, not argueing that at all. I'm fine with people not liking it, I just think it's silly to call it bad writing, which it really isn't.

If that speech was in a book, people would be analysing it for the symbolism, potential foreshadowing, or even just for a hint of the author's own ideals and thoughts. But it's on a screen, thus it can never be as intelligent or well thought out, instead it was just getting in the way of the awesome visual spectacle of the upcoming fight. It was a terrific scene and deserves plaudits both for the writing, but also the acting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks! I don't agree at all with the first bit, but yes, it was repetitive and it was a metaphor for something the show has already made a point of at least twice. I'm sure though it was not a metaphor for Gregor and Oberyn, as I said. It was important that is was a long story with no explanation in the end - because that was what the story was about. It was painful because it happened just before the fight, not argueing that at all. I'm fine with people not liking it, I just think it's silly to call it bad writing, which it really isn't.

Well, you know, it's cool that you liked it and all, but for me it really was bad writing. It showed aspects that, to me, are characteristic of bad writing:

1) A sign of bad writing is when the writer unambiguously asks the reader, "what's the meaning of this? Guess it, guess it!". If it is a good symbol, allegory, metaphor or whatever then the reader should try to figure out its meaning on his own, not because the writing is brazenly pointing to it

2) A metaphor or allegory of this kind should come naturally. It should have a bigger place or connection on the overall narrative. Like, Tyrion just started rambling on about beetles out of the blue, with no indication or no relation to the current scene. It just felt very, very, forced. The writers were forcing and turning the dialogue too transparently in order to convey their point and so it felt jarring and out of place.

3) Ideally, an allegory or metaphor like this should work to shed light on characterization. As it were, the story went on and on and on and we never learned anything about Jaime or Tyrion. On the contrary, the fact that Jaime murdered his cousin was brushed away and the story, as I said before, contradicted Tyrion's previous characterization in terms of feeling empathy with people like Orson.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes i'd like to ask some of the members here: what does it feel like to be a hipster?

what's it feel like to not know the definition of the term "hipster"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you know, it's cool that you liked it and all, but for me it really was bad writing. It showed aspects that, to me, are characteristic of bad writing:

1) A sign of bad writing is when the writer unambiguously asks the reader, "what's the meaning of this? Guess it, guess it!". If it is a good symbol, allegory, metaphor or whatever then the reader should try to figure out its meaning on his own, not because the writing is brazenly pointing to it

2) A metaphor or allegory of this kind should come naturally. It should have a bigger place or connection on the overall narrative. Like, Tyrion just started rambling on about beetles out of the blue, with no indication or no relation to the current scene. It just felt very, very, forced. The writers were forcing and turning the dialogue too transparently in order to convey their point and so it felt jarring and out of place.

3) Ideally, an allegory or metaphor like this should work to shed light on characterization. As it were, the story went on and on and on and we never learned anything about Jaime or Tyrion. On the contrary, the fact that Jaime murdered his cousin was brushed away and the story, as I said before, contradicted Tyrion's previous characterization in terms of feeling empathy with people like Orson.

This, I agree, was a problem for me too, but then, the show has been doing that for a while. I agree with your point, but to me, that's what I expect from literature, very, very few shows have successfully done what you describe. And to me, the monologue did lots of characterisation for Tyrion, it even built up to the climactic scene in ep 10.

Bad writing. No. I mean, four weeks ago, people on this forum said Cogman's "Fuck'em till they're dead" speech, the most terrible writing this season, was actually really good. At least D&D get subtlety - to a degree. Craster's was bad writing, through and through, for many obvious reasons. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that speech was in a book, people would be analysing it for the symbolism, potential foreshadowing, or even just for a hint of the author's own ideals and thoughts. But it's on a screen, thus it can never be as intelligent or well thought out, instead it was just getting in the way of the awesome visual spectacle of the upcoming fight. It was a terrific scene and deserves plaudits both for the writing, but also the acting.

No, if it was in the book, people would still be rolling their eyes at it for being trite, pointless and subtle as a sledgehammer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont understand this grey worm missandei business, dont get me wrong its a nice sub plot. But she is 12 and he is a eunuch, what is going on here?!?!

you think show Missandei is 12 ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This, I agree, was a problem for me too, but then, the show has been doing that for a while. I agree with your point, but to me, that's what I expect from literature, very, very few shows have successfully done what you describe. And to me, the monologue did lots of characterisation for Tyrion, it even built up to the climactic scene in ep 10.

Bad writing. No. I mean, four weeks ago, people on this forum said Cogman's "Fuck'em till they're dead" speech, the most terrible writing this season, was actually really good. At least D&D get subtlety - to a degree. Craster's was bad writing, through and through, for many obvious reasons. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

At least we agree that Craster's was so much worse than this. Yikes, that shit was unapologetically bad :ack:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't really have anything to do with their writing...if you think someone cant grow up (kids are nasty little shits to other kids...Tyrion laughing at him probably made him feel normal as an awkward child) and realize they were wrong...yet still be flawed enough to have a laugh about being a little shit...during the most uncomfortable moment in their life...

You guys think too much about things.

If you're looking for people who don't think too much about everything, you've come to the wrong forum.

When I saw Sansa when she was wearing black, it kind of reminded me of the film Legend when Darkness gave Mia Sara the black dress near the end of the film.

How strange. I also suddenly thought of Mia Sara when I saw her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least we agree that Craster's was so much worse than this. Yikes, that shit was unapologetically bad :ack:

Oh my God, thanks, now I can finally go to sleep ;) (no sarcasm, it's midnight here!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what's it feel like to not know the definition of the term "hipster"?

From Urbandictionary.com: "Hipster's can't be defined because then they'd fit in a category, and thus be too mainstream."

And yeah, criticism of the beetle speech reminded me of the contradiction someone pointed out about Strong Belwas: if he was a show-only character, rather than book-only, hipster book-readers would deride him for being ridiculous, comic-booky, over-the-top, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Sansa scene made my mouth drop. That moment when Sansa was saying how she had to tell the truth... I think for once LF was actually scared. There was something he could not control and after all his plotting and scheming this one moment could ruin EVERYTHING. I think it established that LF has one weakness and it's Sansa; not because of the knowledge she holds, but because of the control she has on him (which is further demonstrated in the moment when he visits her in her room). I am starting to love Sansa and I really hope that she comes to realize that through LF she can finally be in control of herself and her circumstances to an extent. Plus when she cried and was hugged the look that she sent LF screamed "whose the bitch"... ok not so much, but it did show him that he better not write her off as an idiot whom he can manipulate. She know's what's more beneficial to her situation right now and when she comes walking down the steps with her head held high hair dyed black I can finally see the Stark in her.

I think Arya's laughter wasn't completely "haha my life sucks everyone is dead", but moreso she's laughing at how everytime the Hound get's close to being rid of her a death robs him of his chance to make a profit. Of course she's also laughing at her circumstances, but this reflects how a child who has been through so much trauma can be so twisted. For her it's almost like everything is one big joke and with nothing more to lose or gain it's a big FU to the gods that she was raised on and further instills her belief in the god of death. "Nothing is just nothing." this could easily mean that by now she feels nothing towards everything happening around her and with her aunts death it's just another big nothing to her.

I think the whole part about the beetles meaning nothing is just Tyrion's way of saying "why do I have to die?" he's saying what anyone facing death wrongly accused would say. Why me? Why must I be the one to be born a dwarf, why has my circumstance made my father hate me, why am I the one who get's blamed for killing my nephew, why must I pay the price for someone else's deed? It's just a bunch of why's and he really wants Jamie to provide him some form of an answer even though he knows there isn't really a proper one. His story is a way to show that there is no reason why characters such as Maester Luwin,Septa Mordane etc have to die? They were nothing more than 'beetles' who did no harm, but they were still killed. It just shows how to those in power you but a beetle who if at the wrong place can get crushed. Perhaps I'm looking into it way too much, but I kind of enjoyed that moment between the two and I could really feel the brotherly love; especially when Jaimie turned and said good luck and the smiling and happy glances he gave Tyrion during the battle.

Last I wanted to just say my heart is still fluttering at thoughts of that final showdown. Pedro Pascal had me in awe. His acting, his movement, how he carried the spear, that moment, the passion in the way he moved and in the way he spoke. Oberyn was supposed to be toying with the Mountain and I FELT it. Oberyn was supposed to be this fighter who's movements were very different than traditional westeros fighters an I could really see it. I was infatuated with the acting, enamoured with the choreography and how he moved, and completely in love with the character and how Oberyn brought him to life in that moment. It was all exactly how I imagined it. The mountain's brutish style of fighting and his mocking 'I did it speach' as he finished Oberyn off was perfect. That moment where he's talking about crushing Aegon's head and does it to Oberyn gave me a shiver and it was ironic(?), the complete opposite of poetic justice thats for sure. I hated the mountain so much in that moment, but loved the actor. I must say a HUGE props to Pedro Pascal and Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson.

(I may have contradicted myself and I apologize; my mind is a mess of things still recovering from that episode despite knowing a great character would be leaving us, plus I'm so pulling the "It's suuuupppper late at night" card).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Urbandictionary.com: "Hipster's can't be defined because then they'd fit in a category, and thus be too mainstream."

And yeah, criticism of the beetle speech reminded me of the contradiction someone pointed out about Strong Belwas: if he was a show-only character, rather than book-only, hipster book-readers would deride him for being ridiculous, comic-booky, over-the-top, etc.

Eh, I think Strong Belwas is ridiculous, over-the-top, comic-booky, etc. I also think the beetles scene was terrible. Yeah, you read that right! I think BOTH things are terrible! Whaaat? I know, I'm such a complicated individual

But I guess I'm not a hipster after all. I'm so relieved!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wel, i knew some book-readers had that same opinion on Belwas. That doesn't exempt you, though :D


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Urbandictionary.com: "Hipster's can't be defined because then they'd fit in a category, and thus be too mainstream."

And yeah, criticism of the beetle speech reminded me of the contradiction someone pointed out about Strong Belwas: if he was a show-only character, rather than book-only, hipster book-readers would deride him for being ridiculous, comic-booky, over-the-top, etc.

I do deride him for being a comic book character that is beneath GRRM. As I do Vargo Hoat. You can't hit it out of the park all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×