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[Book Spoilers] EP408 Discussion

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I think the dead men outside Moat Cailin were Crannogmen.


Edited by Cellio

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Did anybody else like Sansa's err crow dress ? It looks nice and all but when she did that Maleficent-esque performance of "shall we go ?" I just couldn't help but laugh.

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Beetle scene was daft and needless. I think the writers threw it in so that media studies students will waste hours analysing it.

At first, the meaning seems obvious: it is questioning the point of all this. Then again, perhaps the beetles are metaphors for humans and Orson is a god destroying the beetles/humans for no reason – symbolising the way in which characters die in Game of Thrones. And Tyrion represents mankind, and the way in which it constantly looks for meaning in life, asking questions of the gods.

Then again, what's the mule that killed Orson all about? Does the mule symbolise death? Also, there was a mule in the nativity story. Hmmm. There was also a birth at the nativity. Does the mule really symbolise life? Wow, man, deep.

Maybe Orson is meant to represent aliens who will later crush mankind? Think about it: who directed The War of the Worlds, which was about an alien invasion? Holy shit- Orson Welles.

Or maybe Orson represents Yoko Ono and the way she destroyed The Beetles?

Now I'm thinking, maybe it means you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. 9 millimetre here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass

And on it goes on and on in circles.

I personally feel that it was a metaphor for a couple of things, but ultimately it is Tyrion delving into the unfairness of the world. The gods kill indiscriminately, and he was born as a dwarf that killed his mother and thus earned the everlasting spite of his father and sister.

He is very close to facing death and he is wondering why the world is the way it is. Understand that at this point, he's in this very messed up situation for entirely unjust reasons. His own father wants to get rid of him either by sending him to the wall or by outright murdering him.

He identified with both Orson for being different and with the beetles for being persecuted. There's a clever nuance in this scene when Jamie points out how Tyrion found it humorous to observe another 'disabled' person. It establishes the hierarchy of the world; just like he is above Orson, Orson is above the beetles.

At first, I didn't like this scene. But the more I think about it, the more I like about it. It adds fuel to Jamie's motivations to free him later and it highlights just how much Tyrion has had to go through, simply for being who he is.

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Hi everyone! First post here on the forum - woohoo! I saw this thought on my facebook and think it's so true -- did anyone else get a 'Princess Bride' "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die" feel to the scene? haha! I thought the scene was great! Sorry if anyone else mentioned this already, I haven't read through the whole feed.

Me! I watched Princess Bride recently, so it totally struck me the same way.

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I wasn't a fan of the Arya crazy laughter, nor have I been too impressed with her arc this year. I suppose it is that they are accelerating the hardness. In the book I still liked at this point, but show Arya has been nearly insufferable to me at times this season.


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Tyrion did more for for the life expectancy of beetles in that speech than even David Attenborough could have, - we have beetle mania in store for us.

Not a fan of the beetle speech, especially the length of it, but I do have to give up the laugh for a good joke. Besides, I'm a David Attenborough fan. :bowdown: :lmao:

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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who ever suggested many pages ago bout two foreshadowing events --



hound saying its a flea bite, mirroring drogo saying his wound was a mosquito bite...foreshadowing hounds death for sure



and LF saying bout people dying at thier tables = Rob& Joffery, in bed = Jon Arryn & Robert Baratheon, over chamber pots = Big Daddy Tywin...



i agree with you completely


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:box: Some folks complain about Tyrion’s near soliloquy (in season 4 Episode 8) about a brain damaged cousin named Orson Lannister who was obsessed with killing beetles.



It seemed an apt allegory for the breathtakingly irrational and relentless way that humans and everything else in this world gets mercilessly slaughtered all the time, and a not-too-difficult-to-see metaphor for Tyrion’s trying to face the fear of being irrationally killed himself. If there are gods, they are just as unreasonably broken as his cousin. Quite poignant, actually, as he realizes that being the smartest guy he knows doesn’t always mean he can reason (or buy) his way out of any threat to his life and/or comfort. He so loves playing the “Game of Thrones”, and is lamenting that his personal “Game” appears to be ending. :crying:



Some folks also state their belief that it's really GRRM who kills everybody relentlessly. The thing that made me laugh out loud was the sudden realization that this speech was an homage to Orson Scott Card, a famous scifi writer who wrote a series of books that focused on the moral results of endlessly killing Buggers, starting with the novel “Ender’s Game”. D&D must have had such a fun time writing that little tribute, just the sort of thing GRRM puts into the books all the time! I wonder if they got the idea from GRRM or if they thought that little easter egg up on their own? :bowdown:


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Beetle scene was daft and needless. I think the writers threw it in so that media studies students will waste hours analysing it.

At first, the meaning seems obvious: it is questioning the point of all this. Then again, perhaps the beetles are metaphors for humans and Orson is a god destroying the beetles/humans for no reason – symbolising the way in which characters die in Game of Thrones. And Tyrion represents mankind, and the way in which it constantly looks for meaning in life, asking questions of the gods.

Then again, what's the mule that killed Orson all about? Does the mule symbolise death? Also, there was a mule in the nativity story. Hmmm. There was also a birth at the nativity. Does the mule really symbolise life? Wow, man, deep.

Maybe Orson is meant to represent aliens who will later crush mankind? Think about it: who directed The War of the Worlds, which was about an alien invasion? Holy shit- Orson Welles.

Or maybe Orson represents Yoko Ono and the way she destroyed The Beetles?

Now I'm thinking, maybe it means you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. 9 millimetre here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass

And on it goes on and on in circles.

Samuel L Jackson might come looking for you.

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When I watched this episode I thought I misheard Ser Jorah when he said This is the work of Kywin Lannister, Kywin? I've played it a thousand times, pls can someone let me know if they hear that too? very bad editing to leave that blooper in.


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I realized something about the Arya laughing bit. Right before it happens they were talking about how nothing beats the look in someone's eyes when they realize it's all over.



Ignore that because she never actually looked at him in that scene


Edited by OccupyHarrenhal

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I rewatched the episode, as is my tradition, and I realized something about the Arya laughing bit. Right before it happens they were talking about how nothing beats the look in someone's eyes when they realize it's all over. I think she started laughing because she saw that look in Sandor's eyes.

she started laughing like a maniac before looking at him...

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hound saying its a flea bite, mirroring drogo saying his wound was a mosquito bite...foreshadowing hounds death for sure

except he doesn't die, and will most likely reappear in the books.

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I think the dead men outside Moat Cailin were Crannogmen.

Some might be, but like in the books, they were more likely Ironborn trying to exit the Moat and flee only to get shot by the poison arrows/darts or get bitten by the snakes around the place. Those poor bastards were literally stuck with nowhere to go and no hope left.

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Outside of the Grey Worm - Missandei scenes, which, while heartfelt, seem rather pointless, I thought this was by far the best episode of the season. The Sansa twist was interesting. Arya and the Hound are always great. Dany dismissing Jorah. The Tyrion - Jaime beetle scene was really good. And then, of course, the duel, which was fantastic. I found myself rooting for Oberyn and imploring him to end it, even though I knew what would happen.



Great episode.


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UnHound too??

No, he survives his wound and ends up in a monastery as a grave digger . It's in one of brienne's chapters in affc. Not officially confirmed but I give it a 99% chance of being true. He will probably be the Faith's champion against unGregor.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60808-the-gravedigging-hound-complete-analysis/

Edited by Relic

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