How would you rate episode 408?

[Northern_Star]

The beetles were a metaphor for human self destruction. Wars and murder. We are the 'moron' who can't stop destroying ourselves. I thought it was apt at this point in the show.

I give this episode an 8 overall. We moved the plot forward nicely with Jorah's excommunication and Oberyn's death. I agree I am a bit confused about why we are spending so much time on Greyworm, but there may be a justified reason, I'm not counting that as a negative yet.

I think they gonna use missandei as the third betrayal - for love.

7

The duel was great, but not the rest. Why is Tyrion talking about beetles? Why are we spending time developing a new storyline with Mel and Greyworm? Why do these episodes always end early? There is so much to cover and instead of covering we are doing this?

I am tiring of the show, I think D and D are missing it, and getting worse.

I believe its about human beings tend to destroy/harm those who are weaker then themselves.

This scene is only there to get the audience familiar with a tyrion's obsession with certain topics: Why did he kill the Beatles | Where do whores go?

Edited June 2, 2014 by Northern_Star

[Turncloak_]

3/10 some very good parts that I liked (Jorah getting banished, moles town attack, Jon-Grenn-Edd-Sam-Pipp party, Roose and Ramsay, Theon taking Moat Cailin for Ramsay, Sansa becoming a player) overshadowed by the butchery of one of the best fights in the books along with some cringe worthy filler (Missandei/Greyworm, Tyrion/beetles)

[Cas Stark]

Does anyone have any idea why so many of the shows this season are very far under 60 minutes? It seems strange.

[Rashtibram]

Cuddling for human companionship does not equate to sexual tension. Besides in the books Missandei is no more than ten years old when freed and a little too young to be involved a consensual eunuch/slave romance.

I think the implication was definitely that they're doing it for sexual pleasure. Also, this isn't the books. Show Missandei is at least around 18.

[BeornJ]

9/10.

Judging by some of the other comments I think I am in a pretty good position, I watched the first two seasons before picking up a book, then read all of them before the third season. I look forward to scenes but I don't obsess over some details like some fans seem to. Not that there is anything wrong with that but I sometimes it may detach you from what's going on in the show.

For example, 'only cat' to 'your sister', it's such a tiny tiny change and yet a few people are devastated with it because they've read that scene over and over for years, and have stated it's one of their favourite lines, and have written essays on littlefinger and catelyn and sansa and the vale. Change seems heretical.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I was really looking forward to the duel, I even reread the chapter a few times and read on the forum what people were expecting. Even with all that expectation, I loved it. I thought going into it there was two things they had to do well: the brute power of the mountain versus the agility and skill of the red viper, and the red viper's very complex mixture of cool arrogance and vengeance. I think they nailed both.

I was surprised the poison wasn't hinted at but I don't mind, I thought Tyrion might throw up but the change was fine. Sansa change was very unexpected but did not feel unnatural or uncharacteristic.. well... perhaps a little...

Littlefinger being unprepared was uncharacteristic.... but I felt like in the books the absolute ease he was able to pin the murder on Marillion seemed unrealistic.

Man I'm rambling... anyway.... very good episode

[Ran]

Cas,

It's budgetary.

Basically, the seasons that have huge set pieces -- aka "Blackwater", "The Watchers on the Wall" -- tend to have resources saved up by reducing running time.

Seasons that are less focused on huge set pieces -- like last season -- are given more run time per episode (remember, they even made a point about how we got "almost an extra entire episode" across the season because each episode was 2-3 minutes longer than season 2).

[Cas Stark]

Cas,

It's budgetary.

Basically, the seasons that have huge set pieces -- aka "Blackwater", "The Watchers on the Wall" -- tend to have resources saved up by reducing running time.

Seasons that are less focused on huge set pieces -- like last season -- are given more run time per episode (remember, they even made a point about how we got "almost an extra entire episode" across the season because each episode was 2-3 minutes longer than season 2).

Thanks.

But, I have to say, that doesn't make much sense to me. Why couldn't they just make existing scenes longer then? That wouldn't cost more.

I suppose that kills my conspiracy theory that they've gone through and cut out over the top sex scenes and violence against women as a result of the sept debacle though. LOL.

[Gvn2Fly]

That's how Oberyn died in the books, with his head gruesomely crushed in.

That's not how the poster imagined it in his head so the show sucks. LOL

[Lord Ledford]

A very impressive 9, literally inches away from a 10.

Everything in the Vale was outstanding. I know some people will complain that they're rushing Sansa's change, and muddling the character a bit, but I don't. That last scene with her coming down the stairs was one of the moments of the season.

Tyrion's beetle story was great.

Emilia Clarke handled Jorah's expulsion very well.

Not yet sure how I feel about the whole Grey Worm romance.

Dialogue still just leaves that little bit to be desired...

[boojam]

Cas,

It's budgetary.

Basically, the seasons that have huge set pieces -- aka "Blackwater", "The Watchers on the Wall" -- tend to have resources saved up by reducing running time.

Seasons that are less focused on huge set pieces -- like last season -- are given more run time per episode (remember, they even made a point about how we got "almost an extra entire episode" across the season because each episode was 2-3 minutes longer than season 2).

It will be interesting to see what season 5 brings, I mean HBO (well Time Warner) must be raking it in if the USA numbers stay at 6 million.

Must have twice that many non USA viewers as the a season goes out into the world as the year progresses.

[Master and Commander]

A solid 2.

[lakin1013]

Rated it a 6. Fight was good, but Dany did not manage to act the utter betrayal she should have been feeling about Sir Jorah. Regarding the scenes with Missandei and Grey Worm - who cares? Arya is NOT going to identify herself to get into the Vale (meant to say - the guards are not going to announce her? nobody will get her name?)? Moat Cailin did feel rushed. I am uncertain how I feel about the Sansa scenes. Unlike others though, I did like the whole beetle discussion. So I gave it a 6.

Edited June 2, 2014 by lakin1013

[Lord Ledford]

Please let us know what is great about the beetle story (and what it's about? I'm shaking my head)

[Jamie Lannister]

Please let us know what is great about the beetle story (and what it's about? I'm shaking my head)

It's apparently a metaphor for the senseless death in the series; that is, that one can't understand it no matter how hard one tries.

It was a shit scene and if that is what they were going for, it's pretty lame.

Gave the ep a 6/10. The duel was enjoyable, Sansa was cute, and Roose/Ramsay were great, but the rest... eh. Too much filler.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Jamie Lannister

[basilisk312]

i can't go higher than a 7... the good parts, sansa and overconfident oberyn, were very good, but (as others have stated) i see nothing good from the grey worm arc nor from the failure to mention the reason for the viper's name (or the lack of mention of poison on the spear)

[David Selig]

Terrible episode IMO. So much pointless filler and plain dumb moments. That beetles scene was the most boring 4 minutes of TV I've watched in years. Why is the show wasting so much time on really minor characters like Gilly and Grey Worm?

Sansa's scenes were good, the rest were mostly a waste. 4/10.

[Velociraptor]

This episode was weak. Filled with unnecessary things from the very beginning. The whole Gilly in Molestown seemed like a stupid idea from the very first, but at least I was hoping it would lead to interesting consequences that depart from the books. I should have learned from the example that was set by previous episodes- of course it didn't! As per usual, the writers make a departure from the books and then seems like they don't have the balls to follow through with the consequences, so they make up some silly situation which brings the things back on track, and renders pretty much the entire setting to pointless filler. It's as if someone on the writing team suddenly said "wait, guys, this is a poor idea, let's scrap that" and they did.

Same issue with Jorah receiving his pardon several years late. He actually already received his pardon back in season 1. Why would another arrive so late? Well, the simple explanation would be the writers going "oh shit, we totally changed that and created a butterfly effect, but now we have to get things back on track with the book, so let's write around the things we changed. Hopefully, no one will notice the plotholes!". Granted, the very dismissal scene was powerful enough, thanks to Iain Glen's great acting and even Emilia Clarke managed to show what remotely resembled emotion. So I guess I could pardon that.

What I couldn't pardon, however, is the absolutely pointless thing that is the Missandei/Grey Worm romance. I mean, really? Seems as though they were just filling the amount of tits per episode quota, perhaps as an apology for skipping out on Daenerys' sex scene in the last episode. Which I didn't mind, because Missandei is gorgeus, but afterwards we're given a conversation that is so clichee, it's cringeworthy. Such scenes serve no purpose other than to cater to the shallow watchers, either those who watch the show for the tits, or watch it to get teary eyed at cute romance couples.

The Jaime/Tyrion conversation started out well enough- I just love the scenes between these two. This is what you do, when you make a change from the books- if you're gonna have Jaime in King's Landing earlier, you give him more scenes with Tyrion, which works out very well, since both are amazing actors. On the other hand, the conversation about beetles dragged on for FAR too long. Consequently, the trial felt rushed. More about that later.

I did like the entire Theon and the Boltons sequence, especially how they showed Roose. The show needs more scenes with him, seeing how many non-book readers I know have a hard time grasping who the guy is at all.

Now the thing everyone's been looking for- the trial. Well, the combat itself was done well enough. Skipped out on realism in favor of cinematic spear spins and leaping around, but I guess I can live with that- movies and tv shows always overexaggerate combat scenes. But the whole thing felt rushed nonetheless. I wish they had taken several minutes out of unnecessary scenes (like scrapped Missandei/Grey Worm romance) and added that to the trial characters- more dialogue, more exposition, more crowd reactions, more everything.

All in all, I felt like this episode was very lackluster. While it delivers the sort of unexpected gutpuncher ending as has become the series' trademark in both the books and the show, it failed to deliver in nearly every other scene. I would rank this a 4 out of 10. To me, this was the weakest episode this season by far and quite possibly the weakest episode in the series altogether.

[Sir Lem]

This was a 7 for me. not a bad episode, certainly one of the good ones, but some things fell short for me.

The "Could have been betters":

I didn't feel that excited by the storm of the wildlings in the beginning. I am a bit weirded out by the Grey Worm thing, is it really necessary? I guess I can dig the idea of creating more dramatic depth amongst the minor characters in the Eastern Storyline, but this is just contrived.

The "Awesome":

I was happy with what they did with Jorah's exile, glad they got Selmy to be the whistle-blower after all, though this whole thing was handled much better in the book. I'd like to see Dany reflect on the three betrayals a bit after this. The Moat Cailin stuff and Ramsey's boon was cool. The fight was excellent. I loved the TV version of Prince Oberyn and even though I knew what would happen from the book, I wanted to see him live (though I suppose I would have trolled if he did, lol). I'm happy to see Sansa being given a bit more competence, even at the risk of canon.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Sir Lem

[westerosifitness]

Here we go

• Missandei and Grey Worm: 4/10 - The only reason I'm giving this filler any good points is because I like the Grey Worm actor's performance. Its filler and fan service, but its not entirely boring. Just pointless. Would rather spend it on a plotline that will actually go somewhere
  

• Arya & the Hound: 5/10 - Points go to the Hound's performance. This is one of the couples that reminds me I'm watching a TV show. There is no reason the Hound would let Arya talk down to him like that. He would punch her. The only reason she can is because the audience thinks it is super-cute when Maisie Williams acts all tough and says things that little girls don't normally say. Arya is unaffected by the Red Wedding and is a peppy, cute little girl, until the story needs her to go back to her character arc, like with killing Rorge. I also see Maisie more than I see Arya every time I watch her
  

• Sansa and Petyr: 8/10 - Obviously, there were a lot of change-ups with these scenes, but you know what? They worked. I don't think it really changes anything drastically for Sansa to reveal herself. The Lords Declarant promised not to tell nobody, which is poor writing's way of saying "we're covering our butts with this stupid plothole by having characters act in ways they would not in real life" but I don't care because those scenes were awesome. The Eyrie has been my favorite setting in the season so far. Sansa and Petyr are great on screen with each other.
  

• Dany & Jorah: 4/10 - Ughhh, Emilia just has lost her stuff. She is awkward. My bro, an Unsullied, suggested, "They just need to keep her saying things in fake languages, because then she does a good job. With normal english she's weird." And he's right. Those scenes were awkward and lacked 'oomph.' Also, I want to see Barristan use his damn sword. All I think about when watching him is that the actor probably is so horrible wielding a sword that they don't let him have a fight scene, so it makes his character kind of a joke. The Unsullied probably think he is past his prime.
  

• Boltons: 9/10 - I only take a point away because I don't think Reek is a good enough Reek. He looks exactly the same. They made his armor a little big for him but that's it. The Moat Cailin scene was pretty good, Ramsay was good. I don't like their take on Ramsay, but the actor does a fine job and I'm not going to criticize him for the casting. I actually cheer for him, which isn't the best but at least he's entertaining to watch. At least he has personality, unlike the lead character mentioned above ^.
  

• Big Dumb Scene: 2/10 - Now, we get to the big dumb scene where Jaime and Tyrion talk about a handicapped kid for 7 minutes of showtime in a boring dungeon. Why did they decide to do this ham-handed analogy for the Game of Thrones instead of having an intimate scene between the Viper and Tyrion? I don't know, but I don't think it pays off. The only points go to the brotherly connection that the actors were able to convey. That was touching.
  

• Teh Duel: 9/10 - Finally, Teh Duel! Teh duel was very good in terms of excitement, and was enjoyable to watch. They kept it lighthearted up until the end. I would have liked more time between Tyrion and Oberyn, as addressed above, but w/e it didn't happen no use complaining. Ellaria is more vibrant on the show than in the books and that's a good thing. I felt for her at the end. Oberyn was so good with the audience. I will only gripe that they could have SLOWED DOWN. Seems like every "big" scene this season has been somewhat rushed. I don't understand copping us out of minutes every episode. More buildup to the duel would have been nice. It felt somewhat like they were trying to get through it quickly and I don't know why they would do that.
  

Anyways, I think that's everything. I gave it an 8/10 for overall enjoyment. Hopefully everyone thinks this is a fair and relatively unbiased review.

Love these forums

[Coeur]

The cousing killing beetles is the GRRM himself, and the characters are the beetles. I don't know, if it was screenwriters joke, maybe we will know someday.