How would you rate episode 408?

[D-A-C]

3) Arya is so shell shocked from her life experience that she will never reveal who she is yet she walks into a valley of hired thugs and shouts her name. This is not a small thing. Her story progression is almost wholly about casting off Arya Stark. Every time she lies about who she is a step in that progression. By this point in her arc she has completely given up Arya. If she walks away from her declaration here without any repercussions, it lessens her story.

That is an excellent interpretation of Arya from the books, its a shame you are not helping the show's writers adapt the books to screenplay, it seems they are oblivious to that side of her arc.

She literally lies so many times, assumes many identities that in a sense Arya Stark merely becomes another identity that she can assume or not at will, and eventually she goes on to train in forgetting who she is entirely so she can become anything and anyone.

The fact that so many people say 'Arya laughing was the cutest' tells you how badly they have fucked up her arc, she is arguably one of the darkest characters in the book.

It through her eyes we mostly get to witness the real effects of the Game of Thrones, the rapes, torture and pillaging that sweeps across the land while the noblemen and women plot and scheme like assholes safe in their cities and castles.

Arya and the Hound aren't a cute odd couple, they are much darker in the books and less buddy, buddy. Its just another example of messing things up.

The worst part is the unsullied non book readers have no clue things are meant to be very different for alot of their favourite characters.

Its the same with Tyrion, he is alot darker around the edges in the books and still a Lannister asshole, but god forbid Peter Dinklage be asked to add a bit of darkness to everyone's favourite character. The worst part is, I bet he could pull it off and still be everyone's favourite, but they won't even try.

Anyway, this episode is just a perfect example of how all the changes they are making are ruining the story/

Main storylines are treated as side shows and characters are being kept going longer or presented in to suit the supposed demands of the T.V audience and as a result they are getting really short changed from a story perspective.

[ground_control]

Just to clarify, I meant that D&D have wanted to put their own spin on the source material. I mean, haven't you ever read a book and thought in your head I don't agree with that. I would've done it this way? And really, if we're being fair, that's all they've done thus far. Ball park estimate, I'd say 85-90% of GOT is in the books. That's a far cry from what many like to claim has been 38 episodes of complete fanfic.

Anyway, to each their own. Some purists will give an episode a low rating, simply because ONE LINE they hoped would be in the scene was omitted. Clearly, you've got more reasoning behind your vote than those people.

Let's hope episode 9 is everything it's been hyped up to be.

Yes, I have thought about how I would "improve" upon other people's works, and that includes both the GOT books and show. But I would never presume that other people should agree with my opinions just because the original author took my cash. And I'd realize that any time I made a change, that there would be some people who did not agree with it, so I'd be more careful than (imo) D&D have been.

Also, I'd consider the context in which somebody criticizes something. I hated the "Only Cat" change, and I think that making that change demonstrates a clear lack of subject matter knowledge by D&D, in addition to a lack of basic competence in adaptation (and screenwriting in general). Did it change my rating of the show? No -- I still gave it a '9'. But whereas I would automatically want to watch anything involving, say, Tom Stoppard, seeing D&D's name on a work will never make me lean towards giving it a look (and, in fact, would be more likely than not to lessen my inclination to view the work -- especially if it would require a financial in addition to temporal expenditure).

Also, many people (myself included) use the term "fanfic" to denote a low quality interpretation of another's work, as opposed to a high quality interpretation.

I know there are some "absolute book purists" out there, but (from what I've seen), a substantial amount of the hatred to show changes is because of their perceived low quality, not just their existence.

[yushkevitch]

Rating this episode aside for a moment, I'm curious how Unsullied viewers are going to feel about the show as this season wraps up. You all know of Pavlov's dog I'm assuming, well how can any viewer let themselves get attached to a character after we repeatedly see them die in shocking, brutal fashion? There's a line I think for most viewers and GRRM may be getting close to crossing it.

And of course I'm looking forward to a certain *possible* death to come that by this point the thrice-bitten-four-times-shy Unsullied may just assume is coming .. and either way, quit watching altogether :)

Edited June 4, 2014 by yushkevitch

[Steelegrave]

That is an excellent interpretation of Arya from the books, its a shame you are not helping the show's writers adapt the books to screenplay, it seems they are oblivious to that side of her arc.

She literally lies so many times, assumes many identities that in a sense Arya Stark merely becomes another identity that she can assume or not at will, and eventually she goes on to train in forgetting who she is entirely so she can become anything and anyone.

The fact that so many people say 'Arya laughing was the cutest' tells you how badly they have fucked up her arc, she is arguably one of the darkest characters in the book.

It through her eyes we mostly get to witness the real effects of the Game of Thrones, the rapes, torture and pillaging that sweeps across the land while the noblemen and women plot and scheme like assholes safe in their cities and castles.

Arya and the Hound aren't a cute odd couple, they are much darker in the books and less buddy, buddy. Its just another example of messing things up.

The worst part is the unsullied non book readers have no clue things are meant to be very different for alot of their favourite characters.

Its the same with Tyrion, he is alot darker around the edges in the books and still a Lannister asshole, but god forbid Peter Dinklage be asked to add a bit of darkness to everyone's favourite character. The worst part is, I bet he could pull it off and still be everyone's favourite, but they won't even try.

Anyway, this episode is just a perfect example of how all the changes they are making are ruining the story/

Main storylines are treated as side shows and characters are being kept going longer or presented in to suit the supposed demands of the T.V audience and as a result they are getting really short changed from a story perspective.

Thank you.

Arya is one of my favorite characters. Her story is so tragic yet she always has some hope.

I didn't think Arya's laugh was cute. I think Maisie did a bad job of making it maniacal. I interpreted it as a laugh of lost sanity that Maisie wasn't equipped to deliver. If that wasn't the writers' intention then that was a completely ridiculous scene. To interpret it as cute means they don't understand the story.

I'm not overly annoyed by the show's Arya/Hound dynamic. Contrary, I have actually enjoyed it for the most part. But it is going to take a major event to get Arya to the dark place of becoming a faceless man. GRRM made it easier on himself by making her whole story fairly dark.

I don't mind, at all, them making changes. I get 2 different stories with beloved characters. But when those changes are so nonsensical it comes off amateurish. These guys get so much praise and adoration and they are screwing up the simplest stuff.

Now don't get me wrong. I admire the hell out of them for having the sack to bring this story to TV. I love the show. I have convinced everyone I work with to watch it and they all love it. Just every little mistake they make derails a great story.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Steelegrave

[Steelegrave]

Yup. And now I don't know how they get from "I am Arya Stark" to the lost blind girl in Bravoss.

I don't know either. They royally screwed that up.

[BearQueen87]

I don't know either. They royally screwed that up.

I think they may follow the book, but it makes the whole Arya/Hound arc seem like a jaunty walk in the woods. If the Hound drops (he was seen being bothered by his wound in this episode), Arya will simply leave him and then use the coin and "valar morghulis" to get aboard. But again it just seems like the adventure with the Hound was a total waste for her character and the fact that she gave her name---ACK

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Man I'm shocked by the 7.99 average rating for season 4. Well maybe not too shocked considering many on this forum. It's like George's books are the seven pointed star and the majority of people here are sparrows, devout to the bone. However, as a book reader, and someone whose favorite book of all time is a Storm of Swords I think season 4 (at least through episodes 1-8) has been the best season. I'm sure a lot of the unsullied would feel the same way. Maybe it's just me though.

[rmholt]

I didn't really enjoy this episode overall as much as others this season.

I am not feeling the Wildlings at all and I must admit the Wall is boring this season considering it's going to be all episode 9 contains.

Missendei and Grey Worm... Erm... I'm not sure about that. I'm not bothered so much as I don't really care about either character overly much. Good be entertaining in the future I guess. The time could have spent better else where.

Moat Calin was good. Roose was also good as always. I look forward to Rooses bigger part next season onwards.

I thought they were gonna say don't make me rue the day... When Ramsey was all "I won't let you down dad" lol.

Beetles was... Wierd. I didn't really like it. Not because it wasn't in the books, it was just boring. "What does it all mean?"

The duel was awesome I thought. Great fight.

Jorah get permanently FriendZoned was good. Although I thought it was a poor change to make him beg for forgiveness when erm... I thought the whole point of that scene was that he didn't repent?

I can't remember any other scenes.

Would have been truer if they'd just had him say You have to forgive me. No reason not to. CUNGH.

[rmholt]

I forgive the beetle talk for it's meme - liciousness

[ground_control]

Re: Arry and the Hound

At first I thought it was just a bad maniacal laugh, but it may have been a [bad] attempt to discredit what Sandor said so that they can turn around and GTFO of there...of course, Sandor is wounded, so he'll be slower (assuming Arry doesn't just trip him, lol) and possibly get caught while Arry gets away, just in time to catch a ship to Braavos. Or maybe Sandor gets away with her, but slows down and asks Arry for Mercy (and the scene ends with it looking like she does it) and then she shows up at the Saltpans.

[rmholt]

I don't know either. They royally screwed that up.

The Hound is getting sick. She has the coin. She's near the East Coast just across from Braavos. Seems on track.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

I cannot overstate how well I think Oberyn's death was handled. Gut wrenchingly brutal in all respects. It really stole the show and I wasn't prepared for it to be so violent as it was in the books. At first, I doubted Pedro Pascal's ability to bring one of my favorite characters from ASoIaF to life but he blew all my expectations out of the water with that magnificent performance. Amazing actor. I hope this propels his career to new heights. The only problem I had with the duel itself was Gregor's armor. Of course I would have preferred the original Gregor (Conan Stevens) over this new guy, but that's not a legitimate complaint. He did a decent enough job. I just wish they would have kept the original suit of armor that Gregor wore in season one. He looked so much more fearsome at the tourney of the Hand. I noticed they took away some bits and pieces for the duel such as the gauntlets and the bucket helm. He could have looked a lot better than he did but that's not the actor's fault. The only thing I've seen people really complain about is the high number of cuts during the fight. I noticed that too myself but the thought left my mind in an instant, it was so unimportant to me. It didn't take away from the drama at all. And unlike other people, I could also buy Oberyn's head exploding from the pressure of Gregor's massive weight. Come on guys, have you ever seen it done before? How do you know it's not possible? Didn't look to far fetched to me. Pedro's screams made it real. That and the grisly special effects. Yeah, everyone saw the mess that was left after, but did you notice how fucked up his mouth looked after Gregor punched him in the face? Or how his nose and forehead swelled up just before the end? Gruesome...

Concerning the rest of the episode, it was pretty meh. Emilia Clarke's acting is getting extremely stale with the same exact tough girl persona in every single scene she's in. No emotional range to speak of. Littlefinger's batman voice remains as stupid as ever, ruining literally every scene he's in. Did not especially enjoy the Grey Worm - Missandei romance, though well acted. I could have sworn at one point she told Dany Grey Worm was her brother. Really hate it when they make significant deviations from the book such as Asha/Yara breaking into the Dreadfort and then leaving alive by way of Ramsay Snow (wat). This "Hound in the Vale" thing is almost equally as stupid. What sort of leverage does he hope to have at the Eyrie, an impenetrable fortress that may as well be a prison to any enemy of the Vale dumb enough to walk inside with a hostage and demands? Just leave Martin's work alone, there's nothing wrong with it. Some small, improvised scenes I highly enjoyed, don't get me wrong. Oberyn's "that's not a monster... that's just a baby" speech was really really good and Martin never wrote that. But big changes such as these will certainly have butterfly effects and most of the time they just don't make a God damn bit of sense. I gave it an eight though because I don't remember ever being disturbed by a TV show as much as I was Sunday night. And that's special to me. :wub:

[FirstoftheFistmen]

The last 15 minutes was superb. Exactly what I have come to expect from GoT. The first 45 minutes seemed like a lot of filler. The Grey Worm love story seemed to get more time than Jorrah's banishment.

[lil' ghost]

9/10

seemed like a filler, but it's a set up for next season in so many ways :D

[Ran]

693 votes, 8.16 average, 9 median, 8.37 normalized average.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

A 7 for me. Sansas scenes are a 10, the mountain/oberyn stuff a 9...the rest a 7 and grey worm love story a 0.

[boojam]

Man I'm shocked by the 7.99 average rating for season 4. Well maybe not too shocked considering many on this forum. It's like George's books are the seven pointed star and the majority of people here are sparrows, devout to the bone. However, as a book reader, and someone whose favorite book of all time is a Storm of Swords I think season 4 (at least through episodes 1-8) has been the best season. I'm sure a lot of the unsullied would feel the same way. Maybe it's just me though.

This is scruffy lot for sure!

Over at Rotten Tomatoes season 4 is running at 98%, as judged by TV critics 46 votes counted, these are accompanied by reviews , not all are as incisive as others, and RT makes the judgment call on how to score them. Still if one factored in a margin of error , it would be at least ~ 1.0 to ~ 1.5 times higher than here.

AT IMDB from 584,374 user votes it is 9.5 , the margin of error there is probably bigger, hard to tell, but that's a large sample size, so one might guess an approval of about ~9.0.

For those who vote with their remote with their HBO subscription (even taking into account pooling) 8.2 million (Ep. 8 total) (see Hibberd at Entertainment Weekly) is not a bad metric.

We don't know what their rating vote is , but they do keep watching.

GOT has matched it's 4 season's high 3 times this season.

(Is this still the most pirated show around the world?)

Edited June 4, 2014 by boojam

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

My dad has the best take on the meaning of the rambling beetle monologue (which, in my opinion, takes the cake as far as pointless wastes of time on the show go, even surpassing Talisa's long-winded backstory, Cat's "if I had only loved Jon Snow," and Littlefinger's divulging of his secret plans to anyone who asks):

"It's actually a jab at George. He's like the retard, obsessed with killing things, and no one can understand why."

I thought this episode was pretty good, except for the long take at Mole's Town at the beginning (seriously, THAT'S what you do a long take of? a whore belching the alphabet?), Missandei and Greyworm's irrelevant "romance" (how many times have she and Dany speculated about his junk? enough's enough), and of course the beetle soliloquy (really, this is what Tyrion says to his brother for what could be the last time?). Sometimes the writing on this show is so inept I wonder if they're messing with us.

I didn't mind revealing Sansa early, even though it was unnecessary. She hasn't been publicly unveiled, plus they want to show her starting to play the game. As far as changes on the show go, it's not awful.

The duel itself was awesome, although something snapped in me by the end. People with whom I was watching were actually crying when it was over. Bawling. I feel so bad for everyone, myself included. We're trying to stay invested in the story, trying to find new characters to cheer for, trying to keep hope alive, and George keeps ripping us apart. It's gotten to the point where I doubt that any victory can be anything but hollow and any ending can be anything but bittersweet.

Personally, I always thought Oberyn's death was a mistake. It's anticlimactic, abusive, and really just downright excessive. Enough, already. Geez.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex

[The Prince of Newcastle]

The burping was stupid and I actually felt bad for everyone involved in the writing, filming and even watching of that scene. It as stupid.

What? She's a whore and these are commoners, so burping is amusing? Really? Fuck off.

[Rashtibram]

The burping was stupid and I actually felt bad for everyone involved in the writing, filming and even watching of that scene. It as stupid.

What? She's a whore and these are commoners, so burping is amusing? Really? Fuck off.

Oh, don't take it so seriously. It was meant to convey the dingy, raucous nature of the brothel. Such an insignificant scene to complain about, especially as it lasted about 8 seconds.