How would you rate episode 408?

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Oh, don't take it so seriously. It was meant to convey the dingy, raucous nature of the brothel. Such an insignificant scene to complain about, especially as it lasted about 8 seconds.

I just thought that scene was a weird choice for a long take. Normally, long takes span a large area, involve lots of actors and extras, an require amazing choreography. They opted for circling around a table in a whorehouse.

[boojam]

My dad has the best take on the meaning of the rambling beetle monologue (which, in my opinion, takes the cake as far as pointless wastes of time on the show go, even surpassing Talisa's long-winded backstory, Cat's "if I had only loved Jon Snow," and Littlefinger's divulging of his secret plans to anyone who asks):

"It's actually a jab at George. He's like the retard, obsessed with killing things, and no one can understand why."

I doubt that, but it's funny.

I did notice another nod to GRRM when Tyrion says to Oberyn "You should wear a helmet"! (What ever happened to the word Helm?)

The duel itself was awesome, although something snapped in me by the end. People with whom I was watching were actually crying when it was over. Bawling. I feel so bad for everyone, myself included. We're trying to stay invested in the story, trying to find new characters to cheer for, trying to keep hope alive, and George keeps ripping us apart. It's gotten to the point where I doubt that any victory can be anything but hollow and any ending can be anything but bittersweet.

Personally, I always thought Oberyn's death was a mistake. It's anticlimactic, abusive, and really just downright excessive. Enough, already. Geez.

Yeah I agree.

One reaches a point where BITTER SWEET become a SHAGGY DOG STORY.

(Maybe that why George has a Dire-wolf named that way?)

[Frey Pies]

This is scruffy lot for sure!

Over at Rotten Tomatoes season 4 is running at 98%, as judged by TV critics 46 votes counted, these are accompanied by reviews , not all are as incisive as others, and RT makes the judgment call on how to score them. Still if one factored in a margin of error , it would be at least ~ 1.0 to ~ 1.5 times higher than here.

AT IMDB from 584,374 user votes it is 9.5 , the margin of error there is probably bigger, hard to tell, but that's a large sample size, so one might guess an approval of about ~9.0.

For those who vote with their remote with their HBO subscription (even taking into account pooling) 8.2 million (Ep. 8 total) (see Hibberd at Entertainment Weekly) is not a bad metric.

We don't know what their rating vote is , but they do keep watching.

GOT has matched it's 4 season's high 3 times this season.

(Is this still the most pirated show around the world?)

Not only that, but the large consensus is that GoT is having its best season so far. The IMDB scores reflect that. So far, episodes 2,6 and 8 of this season have higher scores than any episode from the previous seasons except for Rains of Castamere, which has a stunning 9.9.

[mediterraneo]

I liked this.
I was critical with some of the others, because of the dumbed down dialogues, but the late episodes, where people lie on things happened during this season, suffer less from this problem.
The duel was gruesome, as it should. Violence is better represented here than in some other added scene, like Sandor's numerous killings or what Bienne and Jaime did back in season two and three. Violence has consequences.
I was fearing (and I read "unsullied" sites and it seems it is not) that the way in which the Viper dies could have been too much for the viewers, in a "jumping the shark" way.
My fear was the reaction: "I'm tired of the gimmick of letting me affectionate to something just to kill it more and more gruseomly".
It seems people writing blogs over this are not expressing that feeling.
We will see next weeks ratings for the common people's reaction.
I liked the long time on the settings too. Fewer, longer scenes by geography, without juxtapositions: separated histories in the same container. It worked today.

[Bridgeburners]

I was, all in all, very frustrated with this episode. A lot of it just reminded me of how downhill the writing in this show has gone.

First there was Ygritte "shushing" Gilly with her finger. Even the show Vikings, which isn't "supposed" to be as well written as GoT, had the subtlety of just letting Ragnar conceal the little English kids so his raiders wouldn't see him, and then walk away. They show didn't have to bash us over the head with the fact that he was sparing him out of compassion. And Ygritte simply looking at her, then closing the curtain and walking away would have been both subtle and powerful, with us taking in the obvious realization that she's sparing her. But "nay" say the GoT writers.... the audience with under 20 IQ wouldn't understand what happened and we certainly can't leave any audience member behind, so like in a Saturday morning cartoon, they add that "shushing" detail just to clue us all in.

Danaerys banishing Jorah was way too rushed and haphazard. The writers realized that they didn't do any setup for it at all, and thought "oh shit we're near the end of the season, we have to do it quick!" So *boom boom*, and two quick scenes and five minutes later, he's banished. It was one of the most emotionally charged scenes in the book, and in the show it felt like she was just dealing with another shepherd with burned sheep.

The symbolism of the beetle scene just barely relates at all to the forthcoming scene, or anything in the near future with Tyrion, really. I mean, the best thing I can really connect it to is Gregor Clegane, who takes lives without much consideration. Was Oberyn's spear supposed to be the donkey's leg that kicked the cousin to death? Either way, for such loose symbolism, that scene didn't at all deserve the time it got. Especially since the fight scene seemed pretty rushed and could have had its own set-up.

Finally, what was with Oberyn dancing around like a fairy-princess in a manner that doesn't at all apply to a real fight? I'm okay with his initial display to impress the fans, but after that, twirling your spear around is not how you utilize its range to keep your opponent at bay. Not that he really cared about doing that. While the book went through such painstaking detail about how he constantly tried to keep Gregor out of swinging distance with his spear, and even mentioned that one time he put himself in serious danger when he did slip into distance, show-Oberyn must have gone into Gregor's swinging distance at least 10 times, because he cared more about making a fancy impressive display than actually keeping himself alive. And what with his being able to do triple figure-skating spin jumps which are completely unrealistic in the scope of a fight, all immersion is lost, because we don't get to understand the intricate points of his danger. For example, in a normal fight, if someone was knocked to the ground and the oppressor had the height advantage, we'd understand that the other guy is in a bad position. But what about Oberyn... is this a dangerous position that he'll have to work hard to get out of, or will he be able to just do one of his triple spin jumps out of it? Whoops, there he goes.

Anyway, those are my major grievances. They handled Oberyn's death well, and it was one of my favourite scenes in the book series. However, as a whole, this episode was pretty bad.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Bridgeburners

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

I object to people dismissing reader criticism of the show as us being "purists." We're not criticizing it just because it deviates from the book, but because it makes no sense and ruins the story.

Are we being purists when we wonder WTF they're doing spending more time on Missandei and Grey Worm's meaningless romance than Jorah's banishment? Or why Tyrion is giving an extended disquisition on the meaning of a retarded cousin crushing beetles? The irony of the latter scene is that Jaime actually interrupted him several times trying to say something more interesting, but Tyrion just kept plowing along.

That's just from one episode. Don't even get me started on the appalling neglect of the King in the North storyline (when that was still around) and the outright character assassination of Stannis.

[Gregor's Nancy Boy]

My dad has the best take on the meaning of the rambling beetle monologue (which, in my opinion, takes the cake as far as pointless wastes of time on the show go, even surpassing Talisa's long-winded backstory, Cat's "if I had only loved Jon Snow," and Littlefinger's divulging of his secret plans to anyone who asks):

"It's actually a jab at George. He's like the retard, obsessed with killing things, and no one can understand why."

I really like that theory. It makes complete sense considering how much fans complain about all the frequent deaths and what point in the story that scene is delivered (right before another unexpected death). At first I thought maybe it was a reference to God or "the Gods" but George R.R. Martin, in truth, is every character's God. And he is always criticized by the fans, so why wouldn't he also be subtly criticized by the characters as a mindless oaf killing things off for enjoyment? I didn't get the beetle speech at first (I was expecting either Jaime or Tyrion to explain the meaning of it eventually) and I can understand people getting upset with the length of the scene but I have to say I enjoy it more thanks to this comment.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Gregor's Nancy Boy

[Bridgeburners]

I object to people dismissing reader criticism of the show as us being "purists." We're not criticizing it just because it deviates from the book, but because it makes no sense and ruins the story.

Are we being purists when we wonder WTF they're doing spending more time on Missandei and Grey Worm's meaningless romance than Jorah's banishment? Or why Tyrion is giving an extended disquisition on the meaning of a retarded cousin crushing beetles? The irony of the latter scene is that Jaime actually interrupted him several times trying to say something more interesting, but Tyrion just kept plowing along.

That's just from one episode. Don't even get me started on the appalling neglect of the King in the North storyline (when that was still around) and the outright character assassination of Stannis.

Hear hear. As a show, I don't compare GoT to aSoIaF, I compare it to the likes of The Wire or Breaking Bad. Because of the constant plot contrivances, high school drama style dialogue, and about as much subtlety in delivery of ideas as a caveman knocking out his potential mate to drag her into his abode and have sex with her, GoT will never come close to the quality of some of the best shows. The thing is, the books are very high quality in those regards.

I have absolutely no problem with creative license at all. GoT is a show and aSoIaF is a book series. Not only am I okay with, but in fact I encourage cutting scenes and characters or making plot changes to fit the show structure better. It's just that, sometimes, those changes they make are based in their shitty writing and inability to keep things consistent. So when we say "they should have just stuck to the way the book did it" it's because it would have been a hell of a lot more elegant, dramatic, clever, and consistent than the way they did it.

[Steelegrave]

The Hound is getting sick. She has the coin. She's near the East Coast just across from Braavos. Seems on track.

The physical journey is on track. The psychological journey has derailed.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Hear hear. As a show, I don't compare GoT to aSoIaF, I compare it to the likes of The Wire or Breaking Bad. Because of the constant plot contrivances, high school drama style dialogue, and about as much subtlety in delivery of ideas as a caveman knocking out his potential mate to drag her into his abode and have sex with her, GoT will never come close to the quality of some of the best shows. The thing is, the books are very high quality in those regards.

I have absolutely no problem with creative license at all. GoT is a show and aSoIaF is a book series. Not only am I okay with, but in fact I encourage cutting scenes and characters or making plot changes to fit the show structure better. It's just that, sometimes, those changes they make are based in their shitty writing and inability to keep things consistent. So when we say "they should have just stuck to the way the book did it" it's because it would have been a hell of a lot more elegant, dramatic, clever, and consistent than the way they did it.

Exactly. I'm judging it on its own, and on its own it comes up short in a lot of ways. As far as the coherence of the plot and the quality of the writing, Game of Thrones comes nowhere near other creations of HBO. Some of the words they put in the characters' mouths and the things they have them do just make no sense whatsoever. Midway through Tyrion's declamation on beetles, an Unsullied with whom I was watching actually looked at me and asked, "Is this important? I'm bored." If that's the reaction you're getting from your viewers moments before a climactic duel to decide the fate of several main characters, then you've failed.

I expect any adaptation from one medium to another to make significant changes, such as eliminating/condensing characters/events. What I also expect, however, is for those changes to make sense and remain as faithful to the source material as possible. Unfortunately, most of the changes fail that test.

[JagLover]

Exactly. I'm judging it on its own, and on its own it comes up short in a lot of ways. As far as the coherence of the plot and the quality of the writing, Game of Thrones comes nowhere near other creations of HBO. Some of the words they put in the characters' mouths and the things they have them do just make no sense whatsoever. Midway through Tyrion's declamation on beetles, an Unsullied with whom I was watching actually looked at me and asked, "Is this important? I'm bored." If that's the reaction you're getting from your viewers moments before a climactic duel to decide the fate of several main characters, then you've failed.

I expect any adaptation from one medium to another to make significant changes, such as eliminating/condensing characters/events. What I also expect, however, is for those changes to make sense and remain as faithful to the source material as possible. Unfortunately, most of the changes fail that test.

Personally I think people are continuingly comparing the show to the books rather than to other shows. S4 of GOT has been very good indeed. Exceeded by the best of BB perhaps but certainly better than anything else on TV right now. To watch an episode like this one and then rate it a 4 or a 5 is just ridiculous really. What does that make the latest tired police procedural or some cr*ppy soap are they getting negative scores or something.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

I give S4E8 a 9/10.

I had no qualms with the book deviations (Sophie was outstanding) and the duel was perfect, or as perfect as it could be.

Nina Gold and D&D have their work cut out for them in casting the Dornish. How do you top Pedro's performance? The way his lines started low then gradually rose, crescendo-like was absolutely magnificent. Though I did miss "ELIAAAAA!"

His death was just as awful as I imagined when reading it. Ellaria's reaction was heart-wrenching. Truly a masterful scene in my opinion.

[Ran]

For those who keep harping about the "Rotten Tomatoes" score as if it means anything much...

I've applied what seems to be the RT algorithm to the forum's rankings of this episode -- 6 and higher is "fresh", 5 and under is "rotten". There are 642 "fresh" votes, meaning that the forum's RT score for the episode is ... 90.5%.

So all the episodes that score about 8 on the forum are equal to 90%+ according to "Rotten Tomatoes".

Edited June 4, 2014 by Ran

[Rashtibram]

For those who keep harping about the "Rotten Tomatoes" score as if it means anything much...

I've applied what seems to be the RT algorithm to the forum's rankings of this episode -- 6 and higher is "fresh", 5 and under is "rotten". There are 642 "fresh" votes, meaning that the forum's RT score for the episode is ... 90.5%.

So all the episodes that score about 8 on the forum are equal to 90%+ according to "Rotten Tomatoes".

The problem is that what most people here would consider rotten would be any score between 1-7. I see a lot of posts saying "This episode was disappointing, I expected better, etc" and then conclude with saying they gave it a six or a seven (even sometimes an eight).

[Ran]

Because despite the insistence that those who are unhappy about changes are completely ignoring it against other shows, those people aren't actually doing so. They're saying the episode is "only" at 60% or 70% of what they wanted, but that still makes it more good than bad.

ETA: Also means the show has a 100% fresh rating from me... :P

Edited June 4, 2014 by Ran

[Bridgeburners]

Personally I think people are continuingly comparing the show to the books rather than to other shows. S4 of GOT has been very good indeed. Exceeded by the best of BB perhaps but certainly better than anything else on TV right now. To watch an episode like this one and then rate it a 4 or a 5 is just ridiculous really. What does that make the latest tired police procedural or some cr*ppy soap are they getting negative scores or something.

S4 is only considered "very good" because the second half of aSoS was the most exciting fragment of the series. GRRM gets all the credit for that. The actual writing quality of the show has been slipping continuously. Season 1 was tight, and I would certainly consider it the best of the series. Their writing certainly hasn't improved, it has only gotten better source material to call upon. And season 4 is exceeded by the worst of BB, not just the best. But then, BB didn't really have an "off season".

Should this episode really be rated better than some crappy soap opera? Sure it has higher production value and special effects, but the writing and dialogue didn't seem any better to me TBH.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Bridgeburners

[David Selig]

Man I'm shocked by the 7.99 average rating for season 4. Well maybe not too shocked considering many on this forum. It's like George's books are the seven pointed star and the majority of people here are sparrows, devout to the bone. However, as a book reader, and someone whose favorite book of all time is a Storm of Swords I think season 4 (at least through episodes 1-8) has been the best season. I'm sure a lot of the unsullied would feel the same way. Maybe it's just me though.

You make it sound as if the average rating is 3.99, not 7.99. 7.99 out of 10 is a still a high rating.

Personally I think people are continuingly comparing the show to the books rather than to other shows. S4 of GOT has been very good indeed. Exceeded by the best of BB perhaps but certainly better than anything else on TV right now.

I watched True Detective's S1 last week and I am currently catching up with Mad Men's last season, both are on a completely different level than GoT in pretty much every aspect IMO. Especially dialogue.

And not just these. When I compare the GoT episodes to the best episodes I've seen, they fall way short the vast majority of the time. Thus no 10s or 9s from me with few exceptions. And when I find that an episode has had 2-3 terrible scenes and only one really good scene, I give it 4 or 5.

[ground_control]

Because despite the insistence that those who are unhappy about changes are completely ignoring it against other shows, those people aren't actually doing so. They're saying the episode is "only" at 60% or 70% of what they wanted, but that still makes it more good than bad.

^^This

If I give an episode I didn't like of a show that I do a '1' (like this episode), it's not because I think that this episode is worse than almost everything else on tv. It's because I think it's worse than almost anything I *want* to watch on tv, which includes what I wanted this particular episode to be. Pretty much by definition, I can't be rating it against things I don't watch.

I can complain about how badly I think something was done and still be happier to have spent my time watching the episode than the "best" hour of reality tv ever filmed.

[Ran]

More RTizing of scores:

Highest rated episode of the series, according to the forum, is "Blackwater". It has a 9.5 rating. Its RTized rating is 98% fresh.

Lowest rated episode of the series according to the forum is "Breaker of Chains". It has a 6.98 rating, last I looked. Its RTized rating is 80% fresh.

Here's the RTized score of all the episodes this season:

Episode 1: 8.18 -> 96% fresh

Episode 2: 8.41 -> 95% fresh

Episode 3: 6.98 -> 80% fresh

Episode 4: 7.78 -> 86% fresh

Episode 5: 7.40 -> 89% fresh

Episode 6: 8.76 -> 97% fresh

Episode 7: 8.128 -> 96% fresh

Episode 8: 8.15 -> 90% fresh

Season to date: 91% fresh.

[Rrrrrrrreal High Sparrow]

Gave it a 6 but that's not really fair. I think that has a lot to do with how depressed I am, I'm such an emotional voter. :frown5: :crying: :bawl: <--my face as the trial played out. How did Tyrion not vomit? I wanted to vomit. I still may. Oh god my feels, this has to be one of the worst things I've ever watched on television. It's a good thing I didn't watch with any unsullied, because I'm pretty sure my wailing from the moment it began was a giveaway.

Sophie Turner did a fantastic job as usual. The dress and hair a bit shocking, dat was quick.

Grey Worm and Missandei...hmm...it just drags on a bit too long. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't kill a puppy to look like Nathalie Emmanuel. :blushing:

WTF at Arya and Sandor at the Bloody Gate.