How would you rate episode 408?

[Relic]

I object to people dismissing reader criticism of the show as us being "purists." We're not criticizing it just because it deviates from the book, but because it makes no sense and ruins the story.

Are we being purists when we wonder WTF they're doing spending more time on Missandei and Grey Worm's meaningless romance than Jorah's banishment? Or why Tyrion is giving an extended disquisition on the meaning of a retarded cousin crushing beetles? The irony of the latter scene is that Jaime actually interrupted him several times trying to say something more interesting, but Tyrion just kept plowing along.

That's just from one episode. Don't even get me started on the appalling neglect of the King in the North storyline (when that was still around) and the outright character assassination of Stannis.

I agree fully. However, i would like to add that when changes are made I do compare their take to what happens in the books. For the most part, with a very few exceptions, they fail miserably when altering storylines and dialogue . it's not because the books are my Holy Bible it's because GRRM is a much better writer than anyone on staff at HBO. Shit I know people on this very board who could write this show better, just by sticking to the source as much as possible.

If the changes were good I wouldn't complain. The Hound and Arya in the inn at the start of the season is a good example. Totally different take on that scene but I actually enjoyed it more. So yeah I'm pissed at change get but not due to the nature of adaptation but because it's just fucking bad. Like network TV terrible. "power is power", "nothing is nothing" "run back to your ships". All gag worthy.

[Relic]

I don't understand why we have a "nitpicking" thread. Makes it sound like all criticism is whiney and petty. And to make it worse there is a "positive nitpicking" thread which further adds to the impression. I suggest having those two threads renamed to "things I liked" and "things I didn't like" for here on out. Might help putting some of this constant squabbling over opinions to rest.

All in favor?

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

S4 is only considered "very good" because the second half of aSoS was the most exciting fragment of the series. GRRM gets all the credit for that. The actual writing quality of the show has been slipping continuously. Season 1 was tight, and I would certainly consider it the best of the series. Their writing certainly hasn't improved, it has only gotten better source material to call upon. And season 4 is exceeded by the worst of BB, not just the best. But then, BB didn't really have an "off season".

Should this episode really be rated better than some crappy soap opera? Sure it has higher production value and special effects, but the writing and dialogue didn't seem any better to me TBH.

Yeah, the writing has declined with each season. Season 1 was the best by far, and the standard by which all others are judged in my mind. The fact that the pace and scope of the source material has been picking up offsets the decline in the quality of writing.

I agree fully. However, i would like to add that when changes are made I do compare their take to what happens in the books. For the most part, with a very few exceptions, they fail miserably when altering storylines and dialogue . it's not because the books are my Holy Bible it's because GRRM is a much better writer than anyone on staff at HBO. Shit I know people on this very board who could write this show better, just by sticking to the source as much as possible.

If the changes were good I wouldn't complain. The Hound and Arya in the inn at the start of the season is a good example. Totally different take on that scene but I actually enjoyed it more. So yeah I'm pissed at change get but not due to the nature of adaptation but because it's just fucking bad. Like network TV terrible. "power is power", "nothing is nothing" "run back to your ships". All gag worthy.

Too true. We complain about a change that makes no sense or a waste of time and then get derided as being "purists." Well, it's not our fault that GRRM is a better writer than D&D. Excuse us for wanting believable characters, realistic plotlines, and interesting dialogue.

"Power is power" and "Nothing is nothing." Gods save us.

I don't understand why we have a "nitpicking" thread. Makes it sound like all criticism is whiney and petty. And to make it worse there is a "positive nitpicking" thread which further adds to the impression. I suggest having those two threads renamed to "things I liked" and "things I didn't like" for here on out. Might help putting some of this constant squabbling over opinions to rest.

All in favor?

Aye.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex

[Mr Fixit]

ETA: Also means the show has a 100% fresh rating from me... :P

Ran, I knew you were a closeted apologist! Say it or I'll hunt you through all Seven Hells!

Edited June 4, 2014 by Mr Fixit

[I love Cersei]

Loved so much about this episode!

Most of all: Sansa - wow! Exactly the way I wanted her to be in the books. I cheered for her when she looked in Petyr's eyes over the Vale lord's shoulder, and again when she walked down the steps - very much! Perfectly delivered by Sophie Turner. I really hope they won't go backwards with Sansa's development from here on in the show.

Naked Missandei raises the score too; first the actress is very beautiful, and 2nd the chemistry between her and Grey Worm works well. The scene wasn't a waste of time; it adds to the story and its atmosphere, even if it isn't important - I know the important ongoings from the books anyhow. This I didn't know, and it doesn't destroy George R. R. Martin's telling or its goals because it doesn't interfere with either. The scene's addition is comparable to a lovingly built set, or the use of detailed costumes, in a way. A nice bonus on its own, but a lot of these "little things" combined can make the difference between a good show and a bad.

Emilia Clarke's acting! when expelling Jorah - fantastic. Dany's eyes staring nowhere while Jorah tries to make (eye) contact. It really comes through how much she cares for him.

The Beetle-Guy/Gregor parallel and the brothers Jaime and Tyrion laughing together for a short while before Tyrion delved deeper into (t)his story. Again, good acting there. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's skills for sure have grown with the GoT series.

So much more. Arya's laughing when told about her aunt's death. Made me laugh out loud. Oberyn's behavior and artistic fighting style. So cool. Even the graphical display of his skull crushing - although in general I hate being made to watch brutality for brutality's sake on TV - worked very well and made the scene as strong as it was.

9/10

[TheWhiteRabbit]

This is scruffy lot for sure!Over at Rotten Tomatoes season 4 is running at 98%, as judged by TV critics 46 votes counted, these are accompanied by reviews , not all are as incisive as others, and RT makes the judgment call on how to score them. Still if one factored in a margin of error , it would be at least ~ 1.0 to ~ 1.5 times higher than here.AT IMDB from 584,374 user votes it is 9.5 , the margin of error there is probably bigger, hard to tell, but that's a large sample size, so one might guess an approval of about ~9.0.For those who vote with their remote with their HBO subscription (even taking into account pooling) 8.2 million (Ep. 8 total) (see Hibberd at Entertainment Weekly) is not a bad metric.We don't know what their rating vote is , but they do keep watching.GOT has matched it's 4 season's high 3 times this season.(Is this still the most pirated show around the world?)

Wow that's crazy. This forum really is full of sparrows!

[TheWhiteRabbit]

You make it sound as if the average rating is 3.99, not 7.99. 7.99 out of 10 is a still a high rating. I watched True Detective's S1 last week and I am currently catching up with Mad Men's last season, both are on a completely different level than GoT in pretty much every aspect IMO. Especially dialogue.And not just these. When I compare the GoT episodes to the best episodes I've seen, they fall way short the vast majority of the time. Thus no 10s or 9s from me with few exceptions. And when I find that an episode has had 2-3 terrible scenes and only one really good scene, I give it 4 or 5.

I'm shocked that it's currently ranked 3rd out of 4 seasons. That's just plain bananas.

Edited June 4, 2014 by TheWhiteRabbit

[HexMachina]

^You realise only a select group of people tend to.vote each week right? There are plenty on the boards who are enjoying this season who dont vote, which brings down the score. And opinions will always differ, especially when the writing of the show seems so...different from previous seasons

[Ran]

There are plenty on this forum who stopped watching after the first season, as well, who aren't voting.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions based on the hypothetical votes of people not voting.

[SJB]

More RTizing of scores:

Highest rated episode of the series, according to the forum, is "Blackwater". It has a 9.5 rating. Its RTized rating is 98% fresh.

Lowest rated episode of the series according to the forum is "Breaker of Chains". It has a 6.98 rating, last I looked. Its RTized rating is 80% fresh.

Here's the RTized score of all the episodes this season:

Episode 1: 8.18 -> 96% fresh

Episode 2: 8.41 -> 95% fresh

Episode 3: 6.98 -> 80% fresh

Episode 4: 7.78 -> 86% fresh

Episode 5: 7.40 -> 89% fresh

Episode 6: 8.76 -> 97% fresh

Episode 7: 8.128 -> 96% fresh

Episode 8: 8.15 -> 90% fresh

Season to date: 91% fresh.

This might be a very stupid question, but i'm fairly new to the boards.

What exactly do you mean with the 'fresh %' ?

[Ran]

Since people keep holding up the notion that the forum's average episode ratings are "far" from sites such as Rotten Tomatoes -- which rates movies/TV shows based on collating reviews and determining whether the "fresh" (positive) or "rotten" (negative) reviews are most predominant -- I figured I'd apply RT's algorithim to the votes for past episodes. RT determines anything it deems 60% or higher to be a positive review, anything under that to be a negative review, so I just counted up the total voters who voted 6 to 10, divided that number by total voters, and figured out what percentage of the total ratings were "positive".

So, 96% fresh means that 96% of the votes were 6 or higher.

[SJB]

Thx!

[Rashtibram]

Personally, I consider GoT to be so far ahead of all other TV (at the moment) that when I give it a six or a seven it's more like I'm giving it a 46 or 47 out of 50 (with the first 40 points already assumed). But a lot of people here do seem to consider a six or a seven to be a negative rating.

It's a 7, when trying very hard not to compare it with the books.

Starting with the Wall and Beetles, that was just nonsense. Missadei/Grey Worm was rather more interesting, but given way too much focus. I don't appreciate Sansa's transformation or his relationship with Baelish. I don't understand what Sandor and Arya are doing in the episode. Along with so much nonsense and inconsistency.

Then the important scenes. The Northern part with Theon and the Boltons was actually pretty solid. No complaints there. Jorah's banishment, in my opinion, was handled reeeeally badly. Dany had next to no emotions about it and it just came out of nowhere. And the duel. It was flashy and cool, I give you that, but it deserved much, much more focus, screen time and build-up.

All in all, I feel really underwhelmed. Obviously the show holds little shock value to me, but I don't feel like they handled this one properly.

7/10

Good:

- Loved the duel. The sudden and horrific nature of Oberyn's defeat in the books was a huge shock moment for me, and one (unlike the Red Wedding) which I didn't see coming, so i'm really glad they got it right in the show and didn't tone it down at all.

- The Sansa / Littlefinger scenes in the Vale were excellent.

- The Moat Cailin scene was great. Alfie Allen did a fantastic job of showing Reek almost falling apart while presenting himself as Theon Greyjoy in front of the Ironborn. The scene wouldn't have been anywhere near as compelling if he'd just strolled in and out of there confident with no signs at all of the frail, broken person behind the masquerade.

Bad:

- The love story between Grey Worm and Missandei is just awful. Pointless filler content that's probably going to drag on into the next two episodes.

- Arya and the Hound arriving in the Vale seemed like a pointless deviation to me, and the way Arya bursted out in laughter seemed so forced and random.

Indifferent:

- The attack on Mole's Town was forgettable.

- Not quite sure what to make of Tyrion and Jaime's conversation before the trial. I was waiting for some kind of point to the whole bug crushing story, but it never arrived. Perhaps the writers deliberately left it a mystery to get fans talking and coming up with crazy theories? Who knows.

- Jorah getting caught and banished was okay. Certainly not Emilia Clarke's worst performance this season.

Edit: Perhaps i'm being a bit generous giving the episode a 7/10 going by previous scores i've given this season. There was a lot of pointless filler content and bad deviations. I'm sure once i'm over the excitement of the duel scene the episode will probably seem more like a 6/10 to me.

It's very hard for me to count reviews like these as being positive, yet they would both count as "fresh" if we're going by the "Rotten Tomato" spectrum.

[Ran]

Indeed. And that's how RT works -- there may be reviews in there that you think are pretty mezzo-mezzo, and those are regarded as "fresh".

The other thing is... I think for my part, the reason I've never thrown a "rotten" review at something is that there's a certain minimum of craft, production value, performance, etc. that is simply kind of default for a prestige show like this.

Others, of course, may rate differently. But then, critics and the people who vote at places like RT also each have their own unique criteria.

[ormurin]

Like Ned Stark, this episode was perfectly executed :cool4: .
Another combination of Weiss' and Benioff's genius producing with George R.R Martin's rebellious innovation.

[Woofless]

Like Ned Stark, this episode was perfectly executed :cool4: .

Another combination of Weiss' and Benioff's genius producing with George R.R Martin's rebellious innovation.

I felt that this episode was so far from anything that GRRM penned, I ended up giving it a 1. But a solid 1, because there is actually a fight scene in the books.

[boojam]

For those who keep harping about the "Rotten Tomatoes" score as if it means anything much...

I've applied what seems to be the RT algorithm to the forum's rankings of this episode -- 6 and higher is "fresh", 5 and under is "rotten". There are 642 "fresh" votes, meaning that the forum's RT score for the episode is ... 90.5%.

So all the episodes that score about 8 on the forum are equal to 90%+ according to "Rotten Tomatoes".

Posting the Rotten Tomatoes data is for informational purposes only , no appeal to authority intended.

In fact there cannot be.

I can't find on RT what their criterion is for their scoring. Someone reads the reviews and gives it a 1 or 0, so to speak.

I don't know how much weight to give to their reviews, but at least all of those are reviews.

There are, to some extent , some more expansive than others , an analysis and reasons for aesthetic judgments are given, some better than others.

(It's not some visceral opinion , mostly!, as I see in the voting elsewhere.)

For instance for this episode only 30 reviews are given there must be more media outlets than that which have TV critics?

For instance they have David Malitz's review at the Washington Post , but not Alyssa Rosenberg's at the Washington Post for this very same episode.

Nor do they have LA Times critic Alan Eyerly's or Erik Kain's in Forbes.

Or who knows how many others.

Oddly in the only solidly rotten tomato by Jake Cole at Slant ... he liked the Meereen parts the best! Had harsh words for Alex Graves's staging of the duel, which I think were right on... but his criticism of the Ramasy - Roose interchange makes no sense.

I do like reading reviews , don't take their 'ratings' seriously , they are just a 'windage' meter.

I don't know what your take on the IMDB users poll is? It it similar to here, mostly there is just a number and no rational , but there are , as of today, 10387 votes, I sure would not want to read 10,000 reviews.

I do like Myles McNutt reviews at Cultural Learnings, as are your alls, they a long , careful and elaborated , I like seeing that.

This forum circumscribes , well at those that comment, a special community , but there are other views, some by people who take a special interest in this visual dramatic narrative adaptation of ASoIaF.

In the end there is a loose but important arbiter of the show, that is how many viewers there are.... 7.2 million first viewing last episode, 8.2 million for the evening. That's a pretty solid endorsement, those are votes by paid subscription , some way or another. (I don't think pirate viewings are counted!)

(By the by Entertainment Weekly sure is great sources of views and information about the show, I guess James Hibberd is quite a fan.

Edited June 5, 2014 by boojam

[boojam]

Indeed. And that's how RT works -- there may be reviews in there that you think are pretty mezzo-mezzo, and those are regarded as "fresh".

The other thing is... I think for my part, the reason I've never thrown a "rotten" review at something is that there's a certain minimum of craft, production value, performance, etc. that is simply kind of default for a prestige show like this.

Others, of course, may rate differently. But then, critics and the people who vote at places like RT also each have their own unique criteria.

By now, after due consideration, I always give 2 points for the cast, 2 points for production value (sets and costumes) and 2 points for cinematography and music and misc. stuff like that, they are always first rate.

So that's 6 minimum right there.

Writing, structuring , editing composition, direction get my attention for the other four points.

[Hodor's Dragon]

* * * Oberyn's "that's not a monster... that's just a baby" speech was really really good and Martin never wrote that. * * *

He might've inspired it, though, because it reminds me of:

Yoren [to Lannister freeriders]: "That's no law, just a sword. Happens I've got one myself."

[TheWhiteRabbit]

By now, after due consideration, I always give 2 points for the cast, 2 points for production value (sets and costumes) and 2 points for cinematography and music and misc. stuff like that, they are always first rate.So that's 6 minimum right there.Writing, structuring , editing composition, direction get my attention for the other four points.

I must have been doing this too and not realizing it! Most of my ratings are between 7-10. I only give a 7 if I feel it's very underwhelming or if they screwed something up that I felt strongly about. But that typically only happens once or twice each season. This season I've mainly given out 9's with at least two 10's already.