King Rickon Stark II Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I found the Grey Worm and Messindei scene to be cute but in all honesty the final scene just somehow didn't seem right, I mean I feel as I didn't get that rush of excitement seeing Oberyn impale Gregor with the spear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Long time reader, first time poster. Much like the rest of season 4, I enjoyed the episode overall but I had numerous problems with it. Most of the issues have already been mentioned (GW/Missandei, beetles,) so I'll just add one I've not yet noticed: "If you die before you say her name, Ser, I will hunt you through all seven hells" Sorry if someone else has mentioned it but I was really looking forward to the above line being performed by Pedro Pascal and it wasn't delivered. I'd love to know why D&D occasionally ignore such gold from the books. Dolorous Edd got a decent line but he's largely been ignored despite some of the best gallows humour I've ever read (I admit I'm something of a fan!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 To all you complainers who seem to be retaining a set of the books anally and score episodes less than 5. Stop watching. Maybe you would enjoy Survivor or American Idol more. I have seen all the TV episodes and am reading the first book at present. I am not enjoying it as much as I should because I know what is going to happen. So the TV show can't be that much different as you all imply. Try reading a James Bond book written by Ian Fleming. The movies are mostly nothing like them. The 1st season of the series is pretty much exactly the same as the book. That steadily changes. This season there are more changes and many seem unnecessary. I'm still enjoying it, but I would argue they have got it wrong. If seasons 1-3 were more Peter Jackson's LoTR, season 4 is more Peter Jackson's The Hobbit. There previously were good reasons for changing things to keep the story moving in adapting a lengthy source material with so many characters, but season 4 has condensed what is the smallest section of the story so far (roughly 400 pages, less than half of ACoK and AGoT) into a whole season, and as such they have been adding unnecessary extras to pad it out (much like Peter Jackson's The Hobbit). It's sad to me because ASoS was my favourite book in ASoIaF so far. It hasn't been bad, it just feels like for once D&D have got it wrong. If they think they're going to finish the whole thing at this pace in 7 seasons they're delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravi Seaworth Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Depends on the mindset. I don't watch the show expecting a literal transcription of the books, to the point of using the same dialogue, such that if they make changes, then they have to give a very good reason for that or else I get very upset. No, they have a multitude of reasons to change the source material. Most of the time, it's to simplify, which is perfectly understandable given the complexity of the story.Sometimes, they just need to change for the sake of the medium. It's completely different to portray motives and emotions of a character in a chapter and do that in a one-hour episode without the support of the narrative to do it. Once you make these changes, you may have to make more significant changes to at least try to preserve the consistency of the story. One example is Craster's keep. This doesn't always work well, but it's not necessarily true that the best option is to stick to the books. Regardless, I cannot take the critics of some users seriously, when these derive only by their fanatical devotion to the source material. It's not different from those hardcore Star Wars or LOTR fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I cannot take the critics of some users seriously, when these derive only by their fanatical devotion to the source material. It's not different from those hardcore Star Wars or LOTR fans. And I can't take many of the 10/10 scorers seriously given that they openly admit the episode wasn't perfect but are giving that score anyway in an attempt to counter someone else's score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WexPyke Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) If someone disagrees with how D and D are implementing the source material it does not mean by default that they are anal or they have slavish devotion. I think the changes this year show D and D may not fully understand or appreciate the story and there want to call themselves "creators" of the series may be motivating them to screw it up. The handling of the pardon for Jorah between season one and now shows a real naivete on their part. Their simplification is creating issues and they are not good enough writers or directors to foresee their errors. Edited June 6, 2014 by PykeWex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeburners Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Though I'm a reader, I base my criticism of the show (I gave this ep a 3 btw) based on my comparison of it to other shows. If you compare it to, like, The Wire or Sopranos, the writing is just extremely juvenile, lack any form of subtlety whatsoever, and is an obvious attempt to keep everybody in the audience up with what's happening, while insulting the intelligence of most of them. And it's not like I have an amazing memory and can remember characters two-three seasons later; I'm very susceptible to forgetting these kinds of details. But that's what recaps are for. You can't cater to forgetful people like me at the expense of the flow of the story. Even with my latest big grievance with the show, I compare it to the show Vikings, which is actually not all that well written, but at least is self aware. I compare Ygritte sparing Gilly to Ragnar Lothbrok sparing a little English child during a raid. Ragnar sees him, then covers him with a cloth and walks away, leaving us, the audience, to understand the painfully obvious fact that he spared him out of compassion, but doing so in a way that doesn't kill the actual impact of the scene. Ygritte, when she "shushed" Gilly (i.e. put her finger on her mouth and said 'shhhh') was the GoT writers needing to go the extra mile for us because we're such fucking idiots that we couldn't have figured out what happened had they gone the more impactful, and less cartoonish route of her just seeing Gilly and covering the curtains. Then, remember that scene with Brienne and Hot Pie? I'm totally fine with them feeling the need to condense her story (though it was one of my favourites in FFC), and having them use their own creative license to have her see Hot Pie. That's cool. And sure, maybe for that (not so) humorous angle, you can have her annoyed by his kidney pie speech. But then they continue that frustration in the most absolutely absurd way, when he comes back to talk to them (and she opens with 'not about kidney pie again') and tells them that he saw fucking Arya, then begins to tell her the story and she says 'the quick version, please'. Are you fucking kidding me? 'The quick version?!' You just got this miracle fucking lead of a guy who saw Arya with his own eyes, and you're so annoyed by his kidney pie story that you have to rush him? No, sit the fuck down and squeeze every little detail out of him that you can! But the show has to be all sassy and relevant, and relate to us by having Brienne get annoyed with the fat kid who talks about kidney pie. I remember, in FFC, how difficult it was for her to scrape any fragment of a minor detail from people, and how she grilled people down to every last detail if she thought she got just a scent of the right direction. This is not them being 'blasphemous' by straying from the source material (most of us critics are not that irrational). This is just bad writing. The thing that's most shameful to us readers is that a brilliant book series with amazing writing is being adapted into this high fantasy with teen drama level writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) This is not them being 'blasphemous' by straying from the source material (most of us critics are not that irrational). This is just bad writing. The thing that's most shameful to us readers is that a brilliant book series with amazing writing is being adapted into this high fantasy with teen drama level writing. Right, if we have a problem with the show's writing, we're fanatics slavishly obsessed with the source material who condemn any change as blasphemy. This accusation tells us more about our accusers than ourselves. Even on its own - without reference to any source material - it's just not good writing, plain and simple. I can handle deviations from the source material so long as they make sense. Edited June 6, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Right, if we have a problem with the show's writing, we're fanatics slavishly obsessed with the source material who condemn any change as blasphemy. This accusation tells us more about our accusers than ourselves. Even on its own - without reference to any source material - it's just not good writing, plain and simple. I can handle deviations from the source material so long as they make sense. Exactly. I have actually really enjoyed some of the added scenes. Many others I just cannot stand and skip on rewatch (*cough* Baelish brothel monologues *cough*) There is one thing I found disturbing. When questioned about the characterisation of Mace Tyrell, Brian Cogman said "Yeah we made him a buffoon. I don't care if he isn't like that in the books. Its funny!" As they keep getting positive reinforcement from the ratings, they will continue to grow in their hubris I fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Exactly. I have actually really enjoyed some of the added scenes. Many others I just cannot stand and skip on rewatch (*cough* Baelish brothel monologues *cough*) There is one thing I found disturbing. When questioned about the characterisation of Mace Tyrell, Brian Cogman said "Yeah we made him a buffoon. I don't care if he isn't like that in the books. Its funny!" As they keep getting positive reinforcement from the ratings, they will continue to grow in their hubris I fear. Yes, some added scenes have been great. I have no problem with them expanding on things or even changing them to fit on TV. What I have a problem with is wasting time on their own subplots (Missandei/Grey Worm's romance) or making changes that detract from the story ("YOLO Robb" over man-after-Ned's-own-heart Robb). The fact that there's best-selling, beloved source material as a guide just makes the bad changes all the more inexcusable. Edited June 6, 2014 by Anarchosaurus Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Yes, some added scenes have been great. I have no problem with them expanding on things or even changing them to fit on TV. What I have a problem with is wasting time on their own subplots (Missandei/Grey Worm's romance) or making changes that detract from the story ("YOLO Robb" over man-after-Ned's-own-heart Robb). The fact that there's best-selling, beloved source material as a guide just makes the bad changes all the more inexcusable. Indeed. Taken on its own the Grey Worm/Missandei sequences are beautiful etc.... but they come at the cost of: 1) The development of the characters of the dragons and how that represents Dany's problems with trying to be a 'ruler' while still being an adolescent girl herself 2) The 100,000 strong army we haven't seen since the start of last season 3) Stannis A big problem I have with the whole Crasters sequence was that it was cobbled together and a huge lost opportunity. They could have had Team Bran trying to sneak their way through the outliers of the army. They could have still had them captured and done the 'Brandor' thing. So we are supposed to believe Jon went to Craster's for Bran, then didn't even bother asking the wives about him and hasn't spoken of him since? Much better to have had Sam make the Promise to Bran last season then have Jon go to Crasters to silence them (as was the official reason) and also possibly skirmish/gather intel on Mance's movements. All invented sequences and all far better for pushing the tension for the coming battle. They have dropped the ball on the entire Wall storyline for 3 seasons in a row now. Edit: But we got to hear about beetles being squashed! Edited June 6, 2014 by Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRabbit Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) From reading the reviews of these episodes over the the last few seasons it's pretty obvious that there's a pretty large consensus on these forums that the writing has gone down hill big time since the first season (which I don't agree with). Also, there's always a few comments of people so frustrated with the show that they're given up. What I find pretty amusing is if people on these boards represented the entire viewing audience the show might be in trouble of getting the axe lol. That's the only conclusion I can make considering this season is currently ranked 3rd out of 4 seasons by episode average. Thank the gods it's the complete opposite outside of these boards. Most people I talk to enjoy this season the most, and thankfully Season 4 has broken all previous Game of Thrones ratings records and is about to surpass The Sopranos as the most popular HBO show ever. Edited June 6, 2014 by TheWhiteRabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagLover Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 From reading the reviews of these episodes over the the last few seasons it's pretty obvious that there's a pretty large consensus on these forums that the writing has gone down hill big time since the first season (which I don't agree with). Also, there's always a few comments of people so frustrated with the show that they're given up. What I find pretty amusing is if people on these boards represented the entire viewing audience the show might be in trouble of getting the axe lol. That's the only conclusion I can make considering this season is currently ranked 3rd out of 4 seasons by episode average. Thank the gods it's the complete opposite outside of these boards. Most people I talk to enjoy this season the most, and thankfully Season 4 has broken all previous Game of Thrones ratings records and is about to surpass The Sopranos as the most popular HBO show ever. My favourite season so far as well (and it looks like it will end with two great episodes) . If you looking for poor writing look at Dany in S2, most of the invented material has been pretty decent this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 From reading the reviews of these episodes over the the last few seasons it's pretty obvious that there's a pretty large consensus on these forums that the writing has gone down hill big time since the first season (which I don't agree with). Also, there's always a few comments of people so frustrated with the show that they're given up. What I find pretty amusing is if people on these boards represented the entire viewing audience the show might be in trouble of getting the axe lol. That's the only conclusion I can make considering this season is currently ranked 3rd out of 4 seasons by episode average. Thank the gods it's the complete opposite outside of these boards. Most people I talk to enjoy this season the most, and thankfully Season 4 has broken all previous Game of Thrones ratings records and is about to surpass The Sopranos as the most popular HBO show ever. You have to factor in that this season is heavily based on the second half of Storm of Swords; probably the most popular book in the whole series. The source material is solid, so It's no wonder people are enjoying it, it's just frustrating to see all the mistakes that have been made in translating it to televison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRabbit Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 My favourite season so far as well (and it looks like it will end with two great episodes) . If you looking for poor writing look at Dany in S2, most of the invented material has been pretty decent this season. Ya these last two episodes will be utterly insanely awesome! I'm actually more excited for the finale this season! You have to factor in that this season is heavily based on the second half of Storm of Swords; probably the most popular book in the whole series. The source material is solid, so It's no wonder people are enjoying it, it's just frustrating to see all the mistakes that have been made in translating it to televison. I agree there have been mistakes. I'll also concede there have been changes from the source material that don't make too much sense. I just think there's a difference on how upset/disappointed/frustrated some people get from those changes. Personally, it doesn't upset me that much, because overall I believe the final product is still some of the best television that's ever been produced. The only time a change from the source material made me furious was the House of the Undying in the S2 Finale. The imagery from that chapter, even if they didn't include the prophecies, would have been incredible to see on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeburners Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) From reading the reviews of these episodes over the the last few seasons it's pretty obvious that there's a pretty large consensus on these forums that the writing has gone down hill big time since the first season (which I don't agree with). Also, there's always a few comments of people so frustrated with the show that they're given up. What I find pretty amusing is if people on these boards represented the entire viewing audience the show might be in trouble of getting the axe lol. That's the only conclusion I can make considering this season is currently ranked 3rd out of 4 seasons by episode average. Thank the gods it's the complete opposite outside of these boards. Most people I talk to enjoy this season the most, and thankfully Season 4 has broken all previous Game of Thrones ratings records and is about to surpass The Sopranos as the most popular HBO show ever. That's because: 1) The production value is still fantastic. Note that most of the criticisms (mine included) regards entirely the writing. You still have a massive budget making all the costumes spot on, the settings extremely appealing, etc. 2) The series is still based on a book series that's written amazingly. The credit for the great scenes, strong plot points, great dialogue, etc. goes 100% to GRRM. What do many people consider the best dialogue scene in season 3? Jamie's tub scene, which was a watered down version of his scene in aSoS. This season? Probably Tyrion's trial, which again, takes fragments of the amazingly written scene in aSoS. When it comes to the actual writing and plot, show-only viewers absolutely love the brilliant work that GRRM did, but cannot distinguish which parts were his and which were the work of the show writers. Book readers can make that distinction, and from what we can see (in terms of writing, not production value, etc), all the great stuff came straight out of the books, and in almost every matter that the show writers decided to take creative liberty, it turned it towards the worse. Look at my last post for two examples I had of big grievances in the writing (Ygritte shushing Gilly and Brienne rushing Hot Pie.) My grievance had nothing to do with the fact that they were creative licenses and everything to do with how badly written those parts were. You would never catch shitty writing like that in aSoIaF, or in shows like The Wire or Sopranos. Edited June 6, 2014 by Bridgeburners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I agree there have been mistakes. I'll also concede there have been changes from the source material that don't make too much sense. I just think there's a difference on how upset/disappointed/frustrated some people get from those changes. Personally, it doesn't upset me that much, because overall I believe the final product is still some of the best television that's ever been produced. The only time a change from the source material made me furious was the House of the Undying in the S2 Finale. The imagery from that chapter, even if they didn't include the prophecies, would have been incredible to see on TV. Yeah. The house of the Undying was a huge disapointment. I tolerated, Dany's lacklustre season 2 storyline because i Knew the payoff was going to be worth it. The House of the Undying was one of my favourite chapters in clash. The sense of otherness it provoked was compelling, and It was packed full of unforgettable images. What made it to the screen was an utter joke in comparison. I don't think the show is on a downward spiral, and in a lot of ways season 2 was probably the worst, but It still suffers from very inconsistant writing, and in my mind scenes like the bug smashing demote the series from being a great show to being a merely good one. It's still very watchable. but i wouldn't list it as one of my all-time favourite shows. The books series on the other hand is definitely top 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Yeah. The house of the Undying was a huge disapointment. I tolerated, Dany's lacklustre season 2 storyline because i Knew the payoff was going to be worth it. The House of the Undying was one of my favourite chapters in clash. The sense of otherness it provoked was compelling, and It was packed full of unforgettable images. What made it to the screen was an utter joke in comparison. I don't think the show is on a downward spiral, and in a lot of ways season 2 was probably the worst, but It still suffers from very inconsistant writing, and in my mind scenes like the bug smashing demote the series from being a great show to being a merely good one. It's still very watchable. but i wouldn't list it as one of my all-time favourite shows. The books series on the other hand is definitely top 5. I agree. The House of the Undyng is probably one of my favorite scenes in the series as a whole, and the TV show really sold it short. Major disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 744 votes, 8.12 average, 9 median, 8.34 normalized, 90% "fresh" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhiteRabbit Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 That's because: 1) The production value is still fantastic. Note that most of the criticisms (mine included) regards entirely the writing. You still have a massive budget making all the costumes spot on, the settings extremely appealing, etc. 2) The series is still based on a book series that's written amazingly. The credit for the great scenes, strong plot points, great dialogue, etc. goes 100% to GRRM. What do many people consider the best dialogue scene in season 3? Jamie's tub scene, which was a watered down version of his scene in aSoS. This season? Probably Tyrion's trial, which again, takes fragments of the amazingly written scene in aSoS. When it comes to the actual writing and plot, show-only viewers absolutely love the brilliant work that GRRM did, but cannot distinguish which parts were his and which were the work of the show writers. Book readers can make that distinction, and from what we can see (in terms of writing, not production value, etc), all the great stuff came straight out of the books, and in almost every matter that the show writers decided to take creative liberty, it turned it towards the worse. Look at my last post for two examples I had of big grievances in the writing (Ygritte shushing Gilly and Brienne rushing Hot Pie.) My grievance had nothing to do with the fact that they were creative licenses and everything to do with how badly written those parts were. You would never catch shitty writing like that in aSoIaF, or in shows like The Wire or Sopranos. I agree with your points, but I guess those writing mistakes don't bother me as much. I enjoy Game of Thrones more than The Wire. Maybe that doesn't mean it's better, but if I had to choose one or the other it would be GOT. The Sopranos is probably still my favorite show of all time, but I don't even know if it's fair to compare Sopranos/Wire to Game of Thrones. It's like apples to oranges. I wouldn't compare a George R.R. Martin novel to a Cormac McCarthy novel. Was the writing in Sopranos/Wire better than Game of Thrones? Absolutely. But Game of Thrones is fantasy and it's a sprawling epic, so I don't take it as seriously and enjoy it more than the Wire, and quite possibly Sopranos. That's probably why I'm able to appreciate it more, and why it's one of my favorite TV shows ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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