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Arya in TWOW Arya is in BIG trouble... (Mercy chapter spoilers)


Mdoggy

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I agree.

Fan theories have taken on a certain consensus that to me seems based more in fans talking to each other than in the books when it comes to Arya. Where did the notion that Arya is supposed to actually forget who she is come from? It is not in the books. She is simply not supposed to REVEAL who she is. Nothing about actually forgetting.

The FM training is all about really seeing, just as Syrio Forell taught her from the very beginning. Sometimes people say one thing but mean another. She was never punished for any kill she made.

The FM will promote her for Raff. She is not in trouble, yet.

Where do get the idea she is supposed to retain Ayra personality?

Efforts by the HofBW hane been quite the opposite

She was forced to throw away tresures that reminded her Arya

She takes on the Cat of the Canals personality to reduce the Arya influence

Her training was accelerated not because she showed promise but "the unforunate return of the Arya personality"

She becomes the Blind Girl to further stunt the Arya influence

The Arya personality fools the KM with assistance of a warged cat to bring back her sight

During The Ugly Little Girl chapter she asks questions and is continually told "No one asks no questions", she makes judgments and is told not to make judgement, she looks for recognition and is told recognition is failure...questions, judgements and recognition all characteristics of the Arya personality

Even to the point of Mercy as an apprentice mummer to again futher disassociate the Arya personality

Nevertheless the outcome of the Mercy chapter shows that not only has the Arya personality has not been disassociated but in fact has never been more than a thought away....

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You misread what I said.

I said none of that had anything to do with forgetting.

"Personality" is an outward revelation of self. I said specifically she is not supposed to REVEAL who she is. This includes body language, personal possessions, etc.

There is not a single thing in the books that suggests she is supposed to forget.

Meanwhile she is supposed to learn to SEE what people mean rather than listening to their words. That means seeing that the kindly man was saying she should not have killed Daeron, but actually he promoted her for it.

Her apprenticeship with mummers was about learning acting and the tricks of costumes and mimicry. Playing roles. She proved she learned that.

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You misread what I said.

I said none of that had anything to do with forgetting.

"Personality" is an outward revelation of self. I said specifically she is not supposed to REVEAL who she is. This includes body language, personal possessions, etc.

There is not a single thing in the books that suggests she is supposed to forget.

Meanwhile she is supposed to learn to SEE what people mean rather than listening to their words. That means seeing that the kindly man was saying she should not have killed Daeron, but actually he promoted her for it.

Her apprenticeship with mummers was about learning acting and the tricks of costumes and mimicry. Playing roles. She proved she learned that.

We have quantum opposite views of who and what she is prior to and as of Mercy also what she will become after Mercy ....there is no middle...let's just leave it at that...

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You misread what I said.

I said none of that had anything to do with forgetting.

"Personality" is an outward revelation of self. I said specifically she is not supposed to REVEAL who she is. This includes body language, personal possessions, etc.

There is not a single thing in the books that suggests she is supposed to forget.

Meanwhile she is supposed to learn to SEE what people mean rather than listening to their words. That means seeing that the kindly man was saying she should not have killed Daeron, but actually he promoted her for it.

Her apprenticeship with mummers was about learning acting and the tricks of costumes and mimicry. Playing roles. She proved she learned that.

If word "forget" seems inappropriate than what about "abandon".No one said that she obliged to forget who she was and where she came from.The waif for instance tells her tale to Arya and obviously any other member of the guild could do so if he/she decided.The point that is made rather clear in the books is that the FM demand of Arya to become "no-one" and serve the Many-Faced God.It's a similar situation like the Maesters.Once they don their chain they have no surname or family name,they are simply Maester "add whatever name you wish" and their only purpose is to serve.This obviously doesn't imply any kind of memory loss.Same is with the FM.

Anything's possible about the guild's reaction concerning Raff's murder but this is a matter already covered imo in the previous comments.

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If word "forget" seems inappropriate than what about "abandon".No one said that she obliged to forget who she was and where she came from.The waif for instance tells her tale to Arya and obviously any other member of the guild could do so if he/she decided.The point that is made rather clear in the books is that the FM demand of Arya to become "no-one" and serve the Many-Faced God.It's a similar situation like the Maesters.Once they don their chain they have no surname or family name,they are simply Maester "add whatever name you wish" and their only purpose is to serve.This obviously doesn't imply any kind of memory loss.Same is with the FM.

Anything's possible about the guild's reaction concerning Raff's murder but this is a matter already covered imo in the previous comments.

Abandon works better, yes.

And the Raff kill is actually an Arry kill, not an Arya kill. She had taken on the Arry identity at the time.

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Where do get the idea she is supposed to retain Ayra personality?


She does not retain the old Arya personality but she never forgets she is Arya. She changes but never becomes no one.


Efforts by the HofBW hane been quite the opposite


I disagree. The actions of the Kindly Man have trained her how to hide who she is and use the FM's skills of deception to kill people .


She was forced to throw away tresures that reminded her Arya


All the better to hide who she is.


She takes on the Cat of the Canals personality to reduce the Arya influence


I don't think so. Taking on Cat's identity was training to hide who she is. She developed greater skills to aid in her deception.


Her training was accelerated not because she showed promise but "the unforunate return of the Arya personality"


I don't see that anywhere in the text. Her training was accelerated because she was able to kill a grown man and get away with it.


She becomes the Blind Girl to further stunt the Arya influence


She becomes the Blind Girl to see without her eyes.


The Arya personality fools the KM with assistance of a warged cat to bring back her sight


Yes she is becoming resourceful and a skilled liar like the rest of the FM, good reason to further accelerate her training. Additionally, while I can't prove it with any direct quotes its my suspicion that the FM know more about Arya and her purpose for being there than she does, so I am sure they were not so much as fooled as satisfied that she was using her warg abilities.


During The Ugly Little Girl chapter she asks questions and is continually told "No one asks no questions", she makes judgments and is told not to make judgement, she looks for recognition and is told recognition is failure...questions, judgements and recognition all characteristics of the Arya personality


FM are liars. It was part of her training to not look to others for an easy answer but to figure things out for herself, which she did and moved on to the next phase of training. The Kindly Man's responses to her questions and judgments seemed a variant of the Socratic Method of Learning in order to instruct her in the ways of a FM.


Even to the point of Mercy as an apprentice mummer to again futher disassociate the Arya personality


Mercy was another phase of training, to at least learn a mummers ways of masking your identity and how to play a role, but maybe something more as I believe the FM had a mission for her to accomplish there.


Nevertheless the outcome of the Mercy chapter shows that not only has the Arya personality has not been disassociated but in fact has never been more than a thought away....


It shows that she has learned the skills of the FM that she was supposed to learn and will be able to use those skills as Arya in the battle that is yet to come.

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Well, Faceless, you seem to see what I view as negatives in her development to FMness as positives...we disagree


Oh the exact quote from Cat of the Canals "My throat is dry. Do me a kindness and bring a cup of wine for me and warm milk for our friend Ayra, who has returned to us so unexpectedly."


In the "Mercy" she breaks a cardinal rule of FM..killing a man she knows, killing a man for her purposes, for her pleasure with a treasure she has kept as the Arya personality...


In TULG the pox ravaged priest "First change your heart. The gift of the Many-Faced God is not a childs plaything. You would kill for your purposes, for your own pleasures. Do you deny it?"


..further on


He means to send me away. "I have no heart. I have only a hole. I have killed lots of people. I could kill you if I wanted to."


"Would that taste sweet to you."


She did not know the right answer. "Maybe."


"Then you do not belong here. Death holds no sweetness in this house."


..further on


"But can you pay the price."


"What price."


"The price is you. The price is all you have and all you ever hope to have....You will be no one's daugther, no one's wife, no one's mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own...



The Mercy chapter shows Arya is failing not moving toward FMness....


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It shows nothing of the sort!

She is training to be an assassin and pulled off a skilled assassination. They sent her to a group of mummers to learn mummers skills, and the way she lured Raff proves she learned those skills.

How the FM react to her kill was not in the chapter, so people are jumping to way too many conclusions. But my guess: KM asks her who would do such a thing and she says "Arry the orphan boy". She talked about missing being Mercy because that particular role and apprenticeship came to an end with the kill. That's all.

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It shows nothing of the sort!

She is training to be an assassin and pulled off a skilled assassination. They sent her to a group of mummers to learn mummers skills, and the way she lured Raff proves she learned those skills.

How the FM react to her kill was not in the chapter, so people are jumping to way too many conclusions. But my guess: KM asks her who would do such a thing and she says "Arry the orphan boy". She talked about missing being Mercy because that particular role and apprenticeship came to an end with the kill. That's all.

Seems to you are doing assuming...assuming it was an assassination...assuming she has learned mummery skills, seems to me she is becoming adept in harlot skills...assuming the the HofBW will just be all warm and cuddly about an unauthorized kill of someone she knew....

It also seems to me you pull rabbits out a hat with "Arry the orphan boy"...go back reread ACOK Arya6 and the embarrassment of Arya when it is on trek back to Harrenhall he was found to be a she as makes water in the presence of Raff and the others...

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Seems to you are doing assuming...assuming it was an assassination...assuming she has learned mummery skills, seems to me she is becoming adept in harlot skills...assuming the the HofBW will just be all warm and cuddly about an unauthorized kill of someone she knew....

It also seems to me you pull rabbits out a hat with "Arry the orphan boy"...go back reread ACOK Arya6 and the embarrassment of Arya when it is on trek back to Harrenhall he was found to be a she as makes water in the presence of Raff and the others...

It was an assassination. It was cold calculated murder, ergo assassination.

Since Arya is not a harlot, pretending to be one to make her kill means she learned how to play a role. Mummery.

The FM don't care as much as people seem to assume about he taking names off her list. That is what I am saying. They don't care.

And she did not do it for Arya motivations, she did it for Arry motivations.

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Well, Faceless, you seem to see what I view as negatives in her development to FMness as positives...we disagree

Oh the exact quote from Cat of the Canals "My throat is dry. Do me a kindness and bring a cup of wine for me and warm milk for our friend Ayra, who has returned to us so unexpectedly."

In the "Mercy" she breaks a cardinal rule of FM..killing a man she knows, killing a man for her purposes, for her pleasure with a treasure she has kept as the Arya personality...

In TULG the pox ravaged priest "First change your heart. The gift of the Many-Faced God is not a childs plaything. You would kill for your purposes, for your own pleasures. Do you deny it?"

..further on

He means to send me away. "I have no heart. I have only a hole. I have killed lots of people. I could kill you if I wanted to."

"Would that taste sweet to you."

She did not know the right answer. "Maybe."

"Then you do not belong here. Death holds no sweetness in this house."

..further on

"But can you pay the price."

"What price."

"The price is you. The price is all you have and all you ever hope to have....You will be no one's daugther, no one's wife, no one's mother. Your name will be a lie, and the very face you wear will not be your own...

The Mercy chapter shows Arya is failing not moving toward FMness....

Yes and that is what makes GRRM's writing so wonderful. :laugh:

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we are never told what purposes Arya/Mercy has for doing her killing. It may please her to kill Raff, but that may be because she was given an assignment, and it's actually one she wants to do. Is it worse for a FM to kill someone they know, or to not fulfill a contract? Which gets you thrown out sooner?I'm also skeptical of her using needle for the kill.


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we are never told what purposes Arya/Mercy has for doing her killing. It may please her to kill Raff, but that may be because she was given an assignment, and it's actually one she wants to do. Is it worse for a FM to kill someone they know, or to not fulfill a contract? Which gets you thrown out sooner?I'm also skeptical of her using needle for the kill.

Using Needle is a theory. The chapter didn't say that. I think it is unlikely.

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Using Needle is a theory. The chapter didn't say that. I think it is unlikely.

(Please note the caps are for emphsis only, I'm not yelling, I just haven't figured out how to change the keyboard to Italics ...Thanks)

as the LONG THIN BLADE came sliding from her sleeve

How many times has Needle been described as just that through AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC...chapter after Arya chapter has made that description...the Mercy chapter is just adding one more flourish....

A REAL BLADE not a fruit knife like the one on her hip but it DID NOT BELONG to MERCY, no more than her other treasures did.

(see Cat of the Canals AFFC) What blade does not belong to Mercy? Needle...GRRM is making plain the duality of the two personalities within with Arya personality always threatening to bubble to the top....

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(Please note the caps are for emphsis only, I'm not yelling, I just haven't figured out how to change the keyboard to Italics ...Thanks)

as the LONG THIN BLADE came sliding from her sleeve

How many times has Needle been described as just that through AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC...chapter after Arya chapter has made that description...the Mercy chapter is just adding one more flourish....

A REAL BLADE not a fruit knife like the one on her hip but it DID NOT BELONG to MERCY, no more than her other treasures did.

(see Cat of the Canals AFFC) What blade does not belong to Mercy? Needle...GRRM is making plain the duality of the two personalities within with Arya personality always threatening to bubble to the top....

You don't hide swords up your sleeve though. I'm pretty sure the long thin blade is just a knife, just bigger than her fruit knife.

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Why is some people so sure that killing someone known is forbiden for a FM? Arya told Jaqen to kill himself (someone he knew) at Harrenhal and he did not say he can't do it (though he did not like the idea...) IIRC they are not sent to kill somebody they know but nowhere is said that they can not kill people they know in any case.


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(Please note the caps are for emphsis only, I'm not yelling, I just haven't figured out how to change the keyboard to Italics ...Thanks)

as the LONG THIN BLADE came sliding from her sleeve

How many times has Needle been described as just that through AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC...chapter after Arya chapter has made that description...the Mercy chapter is just adding one more flourish....

A REAL BLADE not a fruit knife like the one on her hip but it DID NOT BELONG to MERCY, no more than her other treasures did.

(see Cat of the Canals AFFC) What blade does not belong to Mercy? Needle...GRRM is making plain the duality of the two personalities within with Arya personality always threatening to bubble to the top....

Sorry but no way. The physical dimensions would never work:

The blade Arya had hidden up her sleeve can't be longer than her underarm. Because if it had been longer she wouldn't have been able to bend her ellbow. That would have been all sorts of impractical and also be noticed sooner or later. Don't forget she seemed to always carry this 2nd blade with her in her identity as Mercy, not just for this occasion. So it would have had to be something which wasn't noticeable and didn't inhibit her normal activities as actress. So the length of her underarm definitely was the upper limit of the blades' length.

An 11-year old girl's underarm is about 20 cm (7,9") long.

Now the blade has to have a handle. The minimum handle length even for a girl that age and even if you totally skipped any kind of pommel and crossbar/hand protection would be 7 cm (2,75"). That would be so short that a grown man couldn't grip the thing and still only leave 13 cm (5,1") for the blade.

Now we know both Arya and Jon have been calling Needle a sword.

Yes, I know: A sword for a little girl.

But still a sword.

Jon even told Arya bandits used these kinds of swords in Pentos and Myr.

No toy sword I ever had as a kid (and I have had several) had a blade only 5.1" long! Even the very shortest was two-and-a-half times as long.There is no way a 5.1 "/13 cm short blade would ever qualify as a kids' sword. Not to mention even kids' swords usually have pommels and crossbars/hand protections and thus are even longer.

So no way.

If you are still not satisfied:

Also from GoT we know Needle is for piercing, not for slicing. And it is long enough that Arya used it to hit Jon over the arm with the flat of the blade and making him hurt in the process.

Who would hit someone over the arm with a 5.1" blade (the length of a knife)? That makes no sense.

So by the description Needle seemingly is pretty much what they show us on the TV show: long and thin. Basically a rapier. What kind of weapon would a professional assassin hide up their sleeve? A dagger or a rapier? Obviously a dagger. Not a rapier. A rapier is too long and impractical for a close-up job (like the job Arya did with Raff).

I did some fencing in my youth. Believe me: Hitting someone with a rapier when they are standing next to you (or lying underneath you) is pretty hard. You need some distance to use such a weapon. Otherwise you need to do all kinds of gymnastic contortions to bring the point to bear. Very impractical for an assassin.

And Arya seems to train with the very best of assassins. I can't believe she would use such an unprofessional weapon for this kind of job.

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You don't hide swords up your sleeve though. I'm pretty sure the long thin blade is just a knife, just bigger than her fruit knife.

From ASOS...Arya13 page 1029...He wore three blades on his belt, Arya saw; a longsword on his left hip, and on his right a dagger and a slimmer blade, too long to be a dirk (12") and too short to be a sword (an epee is 36" approx)

page 1034...Hanging beside his dagger was a slimmer blade,to long to be a dirk, tooshort to be a man's sword...but it felt good in her hand..

And there we have a description of Needle thin and approx 24" long...tell me that Needle can't be hidden in mummers coat secret pocket...lets be realistic....

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In the Mercy chapter, Mercy kills Raff the sweetling. I highly doubt Mercy was suposed to give the gift to Raff because Faceless Men do not give the gift to people they know.

When Arya killed Dareon, the kindly man blinded her. This was part of her training and punishment. She redeemed herself in the eyes of the kindly man and he has even been allowed to visit theur secret face collection.

Now she has messed things up again. She killed Raff out of vengeance. I see Arya's days with the faceless men ending.

She is going to be in big trouble because the first time she could claim she didn't know any better but now..

Im scared for her. I doubt the Faceless men will let her walk away with knowledge about how they change their appearance and she has messed up too many times....

Anyone else have the same thought?

This has come up before.

I don't know anywhere across Arya's five chapters in Feast and Dance that she has any 'class room' or doctrinal instruction that she can only kill 'under orders'.

In fact Jaqen's statement about owing to the Red God or any God lives saved has never been brought up in her stay at the House of Black and White.

Seems for admission to candidacy to get a shot a becoming an acolyte there is some ‘boot camp’ training, and then you get your hit assignment and if you succeed you get an acolyte’s vestments. We don’t know yet what exactly it is to ‘graduate’, before that… apparently out on the streets for more training.

Nowhere is it mentioned she was blinded temporally because of killing Dareon, that all seemed part of the ‘training’.

In fact can’t find anywhere, where there is a prohibition that a FM (or FP, Faceless Person) cannot kill free-lance, that is without a ‘contract’. In fact Jaqen sort of does just that, kills three people he did not have a hit job on.

Anyway, I will be repeating myself, I think Arya will become a full-fledged FP, but then told since she is high born she has a more important mission than being an Uber-assassin. I have no idea what this is, just a hunch of mine. I also think the Iron Bank of Braavos is part of this.

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Why is some people so sure that killing someone known is forbiden for a FM? Arya told Jaqen to kill himself (someone he knew) at Harrenhal and he did not say he can't do it (though he did not like the idea...) IIRC they are not sent to kill somebody they know but nowhere is said that they can not kill people they know in any case.

Explain AFFC Arya1 Terys father and son if that is the case....They both make sure that Arya tells them on different occasions that she knows them...Please explain in ADWD TULG at conclave of 11 HofBW priests they are looking at names and disqualifing themselves for assignments...Thanks

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