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Arya in TWOW Arya is in BIG trouble... (Mercy chapter spoilers)


Mdoggy

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Explain AFFC Arya1 Terys father and son if that is the case....They both make sure that Arya tells them on different occasions that she knows them...Please explain in ADWD TULG at conclave of 11 HofBW priests they are looking at names and disqualifing themselves for assignments...Thanks

That does seem to be the one thing GRRM is consistent about with the FM.

It does bring up the question what if every FM knows the target of a contract hit?

(Of course we really don't know how many FM there are, seems there can't be thousands!)

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From ASOS...Arya13 page 1029...He wore three blades on his belt, Arya saw; a longsword on his left hip, and on his right a dagger and a slimmer blade, too long to be a dirk (12") and too short to be a sword (an epee is 36" approx)

page 1034...Hanging beside his dagger was a slimmer blade,to long to be a dirk, tooshort to be a man's sword...but it felt good in her hand..

And there we have a description of Needle thin and approx 24" long...tell me that Needle can't be hidden in mummers coat secret pocket...lets be realistic....

"Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve."

(From the Merci chapter.)

She had the blade up her sleeve. No way a 24" blade fits up her sleeve. A 11-year old girl's underarm is about 7,9" long. Unless of course Needle is a telescopic sword haha.

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This has come up before.

I don't know anywhere across Arya's five chapters in Feast and Dance that she has any 'class room' or doctrinal instruction that she can only kill 'under orders'.

In fact Jaqen's statement about owing to the Red God or any God lives saved has never been brought up in her stay at the House of Black and White.

Seems for admission to candidacy to get a shot a becoming an acolyte there is some ‘boot camp’ training, and then you get your hit assignment and if you succeed you get an acolyte’s vestments. We don’t know yet what exactly it is to ‘graduate’, before that… apparently out on the streets for more training.

Nowhere is it mentioned she was blinded temporally because of killing Dareon, that all seemed part of the ‘training’.

In fact can’t find anywhere, where there is a prohibition that a FM (or FP, Faceless Person) cannot kill free-lance, that is without a ‘contract’. In fact Jaqen sort of does just that, kills three people he did not have a hit job on.

Anyway, I will be repeating myself, I think Arya will become a full-fledged FP, but then told since she is high born she has a more important mission than being an Uber-assassin. I have no idea what this is, just a hunch of mine. I also think the Iron Bank of Braavos is part of this.

What was the Ugly Little Girl chapter if not "clasroom" "doctrinal instruction"

Do I really have to repeat the Kindly man request ending in "warm milk for our friend Arya, who returned to us so unexpectedly" (see post 127 for full quote and reference)

Jaqen is in Arya's debt for saving his life..what other offer could he make for recompense?

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"Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve."

(From the Merci chapter.)

She had the blade up her sleeve. No way a 24" blade fits up her sleeve. A 11-year old girl's underarm is about 7,9" long. Unless of course Needle is a telescopic sword haha.

Note in the Mercy chapter the description of her mummers cloak and the secret pockets therein....see above for the quote..the blade has not necessarily "always" been up her sleeve however it has been in a secret pocket until time for use

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Why is some people so sure that killing someone known is forbiden for a FM? Arya told Jaqen to kill himself (someone he knew) at Harrenhal and he did not say he can't do it (though he did not like the idea...) IIRC they are not sent to kill somebody they know but nowhere is said that they can not kill people they know in any case.

I agree.

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What was the Ugly Little Girl chapter if not "clasroom" "doctrinal instruction"

Do I really have to repeat the Kindly man request ending in "warm milk for our friend Arya, who returned to us so unexpectedly (see post 127 for full quote and reference)

Jaqen is in Arya's debt for saving his life..what other offer could make for recompense?

Do you remember Syrio Forel's story about the Sealord of Braavos and his cat?

Do you also remeber him telling her where he would hit her with his practice sword, then hitting her somewhere else?

The fact is, whatever the Kindly Man's words were, the result was that she was promoted.

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Do you remember Syrio Forel's story about the Sealord of Braavos and his cat?

Do you also remeber him telling her where he would hit her with his practice sword, then hitting her somewhere else?

The fact is, whatever the Kindly Man's words were, the result was that she was promoted.

What does Syrio have to do with anything?

No the result is things are starting to be taken away from her, to mold her, to take her all...except she continually rebels...witness Raff

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What does Syrio have to do with anything?

No the result is things are starting to be taken away from her, to mold her, to take her all...except she continually rebels...witness Raff

I disagree. But only WoW has the final word.

For now, the Kindly Man's actions do not match his words, and it is the actions that matter, not the words (just as Syrio taught her). She killed Daeron, Kindly Man promoted her.

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From ASOS...Arya13 page 1029...He wore three blades on his belt, Arya saw; a longsword on his left hip, and on his right a dagger and a slimmer blade, too long to be a dirk (12") and too short to be a sword (an epee is 36" approx)

page 1034...Hanging beside his dagger was a slimmer blade,to long to be a dirk, tooshort to be a man's sword...but it felt good in her hand..

And there we have a description of Needle thin and approx 24" long...tell me that Needle can't be hidden in mummers coat secret pocket...lets be realistic....

I am 6 feet 1 inch in your american units (186 cm). My arm is 80 cm long from shoulder to the tip of my fingers (that's about 31.5 inches). I couldn't hide a 24 inch sword in my sleeve no matter what coat I was wearing, no 11 year old girl could do it either.

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What was the Ugly Little Girl chapter if not "clasroom" "doctrinal instruction"

Do I really have to repeat the Kindly man request ending in "warm milk for our friend Arya, who returned to us so unexpectedly" (see post 127 for full quote and reference)

Jaqen is in Arya's debt for saving his life..what other offer could he make for recompense?

I don't read the UGLY LITTLE GIRL chapter that way. They give her a 'face' , which by the way if you read it GRRM makes things complicated , because to Arya her face has NOT changed... but to others it has, it odd, but I'll go with it.

Up to that point and at no other point before is it EXPLICITLY stated that FM can not kill on non contract to protect themselves or any other 'free lancing' it's not there.

Jaqen's 'debt' obligation has NOT been a part of her FM training. I find no mention of that in her FM chapters.

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I am 6 feet 1 inch in your american units (186 cm). My arm is 80 cm long from shoulder to the tip of my fingers (that's about 31.5 inches). I couldn't hide a 24 inch sword in my sleeve no matter what coat I was wearing, no 11 year old girl could do it either.

Why do I have to repeat myself the blade is hidden in a secret pocket in her Mummers cloak, it says nothing about where that pocket is or could be ...she just happens to produce the blade from her sleeve of the cloak...no there is no description of the sleeve and typically cloak sleeves are baggy overly long and not necessarily identifable from the rest of the cloak...

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I don't read the UGLY LITTLE GIRL chapter that way. They give her a 'face' , which by the way if you read it GRRM makes things complicated , because to Arya her face has NOT changed... but to others it has, it odd, but I'll go with it.

Up to that point and at no other point before is it EXPLICITLY stated that FM can not kill on non contract to protect themselves or any other 'free lancing' it's not there.

Jaqen's 'debt' obligation has NOT been a part of her FM training. I find no mention of that in her FM chapters.

The conclave was the classroom...the pox ravaged priest (Izembaro a guess) the teacher

Do you have an FM handbook? You ask for explicits yet you are merrily making outrageous assumptions and faulty premise. If you are going to hold me to a higher standard then tit for tat...show me some references show me some quotes to back your suppositions....

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Totally agree with this. The idea that Jaqan accidentally came across Arya and sent her off to the temple of black and white because he owed her one? There was nothing accidental about their meeting, he arranged for it to be so. The FM have decided to take her in hand because they can use her. The FM have also put her in a place where they knew Raff the Sweetling would be and they knew exactly how she'd respond. JD has given a full account of their time together and they know all about her list. If anyone thinks Arya/Mercy just happened across Raff I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you.

So what are the FM up to and why did they want Arya to kill Raff? That's the real question to my mind.

there's no way to exclude this speculation as possible with certainty-it's a fictional story after all-but I don't buy it. That's way too many coincidences, way too many things happening off page that aren't even hinted at so far, and it elevates the FM to a central role in the story that so far is not supported by the text.

The events are much more easily explained as having happened as the stories depict them happening: that Arya's meeting Jaq'en was fortuitous, and that over the time they interacted he concluded she was a suitable candidate for the FM. Likewise Raff's being in Braavos and Arya's being at the play are explained in the text.

While, sure, the story is full of surprises and secrets, in general there's no reason to look behind the text for secrets until we're given a reason: an unexplained mystery or event. There are more than enough secrets and mysteries and unexplained occurrences in the story as it is, I don't think we need to go looking for more, and I don't see all of this as one of them.

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I agree.

I think it's a kind of rule that the FM don't kill people they know, but we have no idea how hard and fast it is, what exceptions might apply, what contexts it applies in and so forth. Obviously it's not 100%, b/c Jaq'en killed people at Harrenhal he knew, IIRC.

There are a handful of textual hints supporting the general rule though. one that comes to mind is, when she is on the ship to Braavos, the text emphasizes how all the sailors make a point of making sure she remembers them and remembers their names. Another is the meeting of FM where she serves, and she overhears them saying "I know this man" "I don't know this man" in connection with discussing an apparent hit.

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I think it's a kind of rule that the FM don't kill people they know, but we have no idea how hard and fast it is, what exceptions might apply, what contexts it applies in and so forth. Obviously it's not 100%, b/c Jaq'en killed people at Harrenhal he knew, IIRC.

There are a handful of textual hints supporting the general rule though. one that comes to mind is, when she is on the ship to Braavos, the text emphasizes how all the sailors make a point of making sure she remembers them and remembers their names. Another is the meeting of FM where she serves, and she overhears them saying "I know this man" "I don't know this man" in connection with discussing an apparent hit.

Perhaps they can decline "hits" on the basis of having personal relationships with people, you can obviously "freelance" hits after building a personal relationship with them (Jaquen at HH). Granted, saving one's life is different than "knowing" someone, but we're making it up as we go at this point , no?

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I think it's a kind of rule that the FM don't kill people they know, but we have no idea how hard and fast it is, what exceptions might apply, what contexts it applies in and so forth. Obviously it's not 100%, b/c Jaq'en killed people at Harrenhal he knew, IIRC.

There are a handful of textual hints supporting the general rule though. one that comes to mind is, when she is on the ship to Braavos, the text emphasizes how all the sailors make a point of making sure she remembers them and remembers their names. Another is the meeting of FM where she serves, and she overhears them saying "I know this man" "I don't know this man" in connection with discussing an apparent hit.

For reasons stated by others it looks as though the FM do not normally kill people they know. The most compelling clues are the actions of the crew on the ship to Braavos and the give and take over assignments at the FM meeting. However, JH did kill people he knew. He also said some things to explain his actions and so did the Kindly Man but since all FM are liars and to be a FM you have to be a very good liar, I do not put much stock in what they say but what they do. The apparent contradiction between the textual clues stated above and the actions of JH can be reconciled with an understanding that a FM can refuse any particular assignment. It could be simply that a FM may not want to kill someone he knows for a number of reasons. Maybe he likes the person or maybe if he knows the person he may be suspected of killing him? So I agree. I do not think there is any general prohibition against killing someone you know but it can be the basis for refusing an assignment. At any rate, I do not think killing someone you know would cause trouble for Arya. I know others disagree, but it hasn't caused her any trouble in the past, If fact, it benefited her. So I do not think it will cause her trouble now.

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I guess my point is that if these are hits and there are contracts, a rule absolutely barring a FM from killing someone they know kinda works against their purpose. That is unless they have another FM do it, but then there's really no reason to make sure someone knows your name, b/c you're gonna get taken out either way. It would seem to me that the only way to avoid getting hit would be to stay off their list.


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What was the Ugly Little Girl chapter if not "clasroom" "doctrinal instruction"

Do I really have to repeat the Kindly man request ending in "warm milk for our friend Arya, who returned to us so unexpectedly" (see post 127 for full quote and reference)

Jaqen is in Arya's debt for saving his life..what other offer could he make for recompense?

I re-read that and the plague pocked man does say "Nor do we choose the ones we kill."

So I give you that, he does not say what the penalty for that is , expulsion from the FM I guess?

Reading Cat Of The Canals I get the impression that The Kindly Man gives Arya the blinding milk as a reward (because of killing Dareon), so she can now seriously begin her training.

Kindly says nothing about the killing being wrong or something she was not supposed to do, and in any case Arya does not seem to be in FM 'boot camp' until that moment.

Implication seems to be she will not become an 'official' FM... but I think that is where the story is going.

Nowhere but nowhere has any instruction been given about making offering to the Many Faced God if you are saved, that Jaqen picks one of the Many Faced Gods , the Red God, is a little odd, but I'll go with it. I guess if you are saved from drowning then you own your rescuer 'the gift' for the Drowned God?

(What if your rescuer has no gift-ee? or never does? That chit just go in the bank?)

It's odd through out COK , Feast and Dance that the FM always knew who she was. That Jaqen mentions 'Arya Stark' to her three times in CoK...

In fact , even on the show, it's the last thing 'Jaqen' says to her, her real name.

I still think the FM have been tasked by something higher The Iron Bank? + mysterious other party's to make Arya into a FP to be put to some task more important than usual FM duties.

Makes her into something that wold even be a FM worst nightmare!

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For reasons stated by others it looks as though the FM do not normally kill people they know. The most compelling clues are the actions of the crew on the ship to Braavos and the give and take over assignments at the FM meeting. However, JH did kill people he knew. He also said some things to explain his actions and so did the Kindly Man but since all FM are liars and to be a FM you have to be a very good liar, I do not put much stock in what they say but what they do. The apparent contradiction between the textual clues stated above and the actions of JH can be reconciled with an understanding that a FM can refuse any particular assignment. It could be simply that a FM may not want to kill someone he knows for a number of reasons. Maybe he likes the person or maybe if he knows the person he may be suspected of killing him? So I agree. I do not think there is any general prohibition against killing someone you know but it can be the basis for refusing an assignment. At any rate, I do not think killing someone you know would cause trouble for Arya. I know others disagree, but it hasn't caused her any trouble in the past, If fact, it benefited her. So I do not think it will cause her trouble now.

I think the most important point to me is that this whole thing kinda puts the lie to the notion that Arya needs to forget or even abandon the "Arya" personality altogether. Afterall, if Arya truly became no one, then why would it matter if she was tasked to kill, say, Gendry or Sansa? It shouldn't? And yet the Faceless Men have a rule that either flat-out would prohibit her from carrying out the contract, or at least allow her to decline it. That only makes sense if, at the end of the day she's allowed to retain her "Arya" personality, and all that forgetting and abandoning is about learning to suppress for the purposes of the mission, not total remake of the self.

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I think the most important point to me is that this whole thing kinda puts the lie to the notion that Arya needs to forget or even abandon the "Arya" personality altogether. Afterall, if Arya truly became no one, then why would it matter if she was tasked to kill, say, Gendry or Sansa? It shouldn't? And yet the Faceless Men have a rule that either flat-out would prohibit her from carrying out the contract, or at least allow her to decline it. That only makes sense if, at the end of the day she's allowed to retain her "Arya" personality, and all that forgetting and abandoning is about learning to suppress for the purposes of the mission, not total remake of the self.

Good point

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