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Arya in TWOW Arya is in BIG trouble... (Mercy chapter spoilers)


Mdoggy

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I think the most important point to me is that this whole thing kinda puts the lie to the notion that Arya needs to forget or even abandon the "Arya" personality altogether. Afterall, if Arya truly became no one, then why would it matter if she was tasked to kill, say, Gendry or Sansa? It shouldn't? And yet the Faceless Men have a rule that either flat-out would prohibit her from carrying out the contract, or at least allow her to decline it. That only makes sense if, at the end of the day she's allowed to retain her "Arya" personality, and all that forgetting and abandoning is about learning to suppress for the purposes of the mission, not total remake of the self.

See post #127...Your comment is 180' from what the pox/plague ravaged priest is telling Arya in the Ugly Little Girl chapter..the two views cannot be reconciled and since it is text by GRRM I would tend to believe it over your opinion.....

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I think the most important point to me is that this whole thing kinda puts the lie to the notion that Arya needs to forget or even abandon the "Arya" personality altogether. Afterall, if Arya truly became no one, then why would it matter if she was tasked to kill, say, Gendry or Sansa? It shouldn't? And yet the Faceless Men have a rule that either flat-out would prohibit her from carrying out the contract, or at least allow her to decline it. That only makes sense if, at the end of the day she's allowed to retain her "Arya" personality, and all that forgetting and abandoning is about learning to suppress for the purposes of the mission, not total remake of the self.

As things stand right now Arya is in violation of FM eligibility. She hid Needle when she was divesting herself of all her belongings to become Nobody. Tho as the FM repeatedly tell her she is lying because she is still Arya Stark that's a psychological evolution she may never make. Wither the FM know she hid needle or not has not is obscure. She also wargs into Nymeria which she is not supposed to do, in fact the FM give indication they know she still does this. I can't see her ever giving up Needle , and probably , the warging, is involuntary and will never go away.

I think the FM know this , yet tolerate her , making it seem grudging.

It's one of the most intriguing parts of ASoIaF , can't figure out where it is going.

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See post #127...Your comment is 180' from what the pox/plague ravaged priest is telling Arya in the Ugly Little Girl chapter..the two views cannot be reconciled and since it is text by GRRM I would tend to believe it over your opinion.....

You can believe whatever you want, but you should familiarize yourself with the concept of the unreliable narrator. Just because some random character we barely know and have no reason to trust says something, doesn't mean it's true. You still haven't explained how any rule about not having to, or not being allowed to, kill someone you know would make sense if you truly have to abandon your old self. They're not reconcilable if they're taken literally.

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You can believe whatever you want, but you should familiarize yourself with the concept of the unreliable narrator. Just because some random character we barely know and have no reason to trust says something, doesn't mean it's true. You still haven't explained how any rule about not having to, or not being allowed to, kill someone you know would make sense if you truly have to abandon your old self. They're not reconcilable if they're taken literally.

Isn't that fun GRRM mentions in some random interview the concept of Sansa being an "unreliable narrator" and suddenly anything that doesn't jive with a reader's own personal preference is carte blanche "unreliable"....

Abandoning yourself and recognizing the worth others is not in and of itself inconsistent it maybe personal nihilism...it is as the pox/plague ravaged priest says...paraphasing here.., you are to be nothing, you are to a lie however that does not mean the rest of the world and those in it are...

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Isn't that fun GRRM mentions in some random interview the concept of Sansa being an "unreliable narrator" and suddenly anything that doesn't jive with a reader's own personal preference is carte blanche "unreliable"....

Abandoning yourself and recognizing the worth others is not in and of itself inconsistent it maybe personal nihilism...it is as the pox/plague ravaged priest says...paraphasing here.., you are to be nothing, you are to a lie however that does not mean the rest of the world and those in it are...

I didn't read any interview with GRRM talking about Sansa and the unreliable narrator, it's just a common literary technique that's been around forever.

And that's not an answer. If "Arya" becomes "no one" then by definition she no longer has a sister or knows anybody...whether or not "Arya" knew the names of some random ship captain would be irrelevant, because "Arya" would no longer exist. It's pretty obvious that in fact the FM do not expect or require that to ever happen.

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I didn't read any interview with GRRM talking about Sansa and the unreliable narrator, it's just a common literary technique that's been around forever.

And that's not an answer. If "Arya" becomes "no one" then by definition she no longer has a sister or knows anybody...whether or not "Arya" knew the names of some random ship captain would be irrelevant, because "Arya" would no longer exist. It's pretty obvious that in fact the FM do not expect or require that to ever happen.

The FM /priests are at their monthly meeting looking at names..."I know that name" "I don't know that know name" "I know that face" I don't know that face"....what requirement is of personality, none... only knowledge... hence personal nihilism......

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I didn't read any interview with GRRM talking about Sansa and the unreliable narrator, it's just a common literary technique that's been around forever.

And that's not an answer. If "Arya" becomes "no one" then by definition she no longer has a sister or knows anybody...whether or not "Arya" knew the names of some random ship captain would be irrelevant, because "Arya" would no longer exist. It's pretty obvious that in fact the FM do not expect or require that to ever happen.

You are correct, sir. There is no way it can be anything other than a non-literal philosophy, otherwise it clearly would not matter who 'no one' knows, since 'no one' knows 'no one' leaving them free to kill 'everyone'.

Even more interesting to me is...

I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!

... which IMO begs an important question to the Arya arc. Were the Faceless Men attracted to Arya because she smelled of death, or does Arya smell of death because of what the Faceless men have turned her into? If the Ghost of High Heart was foreshadowing then it would seem to be the latter, but in the quote above she was not relating a dream - she was literally smelling death on Arya. (She says the thought the odor was coming from Beric). Given the super-powers of the FM (and whatever connections you believe they have to the CotF), I am inclined to believe that they have the same sense of smell. Arya is unique - and JH clearly recognized it. The FM recognize it as well - they know she possesses abilities that go beyond her training. Special person = special rules. They can spout doctrine all they want, and they can try to manipulate all they want, but Arya is a unique FP and everyone knows it - including her. She's clearly just not someone they intend to add to the assassin roster.

She has a greater purpose. They FM are trying to influence that purpose, and Arya sticks around as long as it is useful for her to do so. The moment she feels she has nothing more to learn, she'll be out on her own again. The FM want her as an ally when that happens.

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You are correct, sir. There is no way it can be anything other than a non-literal philosophy, otherwise it clearly would not matter who 'no one' knows, since 'no one' knows 'no one' leaving them free to kill 'everyone'.

Even more interesting to me is...

I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!

... which IMO begs an important question to the Arya arc. Were the Faceless Men attracted to Arya because she smelled of death, or does Arya smell of death because of what the Faceless men have turned her into? If the Ghost of High Heart was foreshadowing then it would seem to be the latter, but in the quote above she was not relating a dream - she was literally smelling death on Arya. (She says the thought the odor was coming from Beric). Given the super-powers of the FM (and whatever connections you believe they have to the CotF), I am inclined to believe that they have the same sense of smell. Arya is unique - and JH clearly recognized it. The FM recognize it as well - they know she possesses abilities that go beyond her training. Special person = special rules. They can spout doctrine all they want, and they can try to manipulate all they want, but Arya is a unique FP and everyone knows it - including her. She's clearly just not someone they intend to add to the assassin roster.

She has a greater purpose. They FM are trying to influence that purpose, and Arya sticks around as long as it is useful for her to do so. The moment she feels she has nothing more to learn, she'll be out on her own again. The FM want her as an ally when that happens.

Who is the first person she comes to know and like in KL, Syrio Forel a Braavosi. (No I do not think Forel is a FM or Jaqen).

My guess or hunch is that some mysterious hand-that-rocks-the-cradle took an interest in Arya even before she left Winterfell.

As if there is a contract with the FM and others to see if Arya is of use in some very large scheme.

It is all too odd that a FM would show up with a NW recruit group and even know who she is.

My guess is that Jaqen was 'shadowing' her.

Arrange , to have her come to Braavos and do it in such a way that it turns out to be a test. If she can make then the FM will test her further.

It's almost a La Femme Nikita except more elaborate.

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Note in the Mercy chapter the description of her mummers cloak and the secret pockets therein....see above for the quote..the blade has not necessarily "always" been up her sleeve however it has been in a secret pocket until time for use

And that changes what? Her sleeve still is 8", not 24"

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1. Arya likely smelled of death to the witch of HH because of the coin she was carrying IMO.

2. Needle simply could not be hidden, even very briefly, in a girl's sleeve.

3. The Captain and the whole remembering the name thing is definitely interesting. I wonder though if it does not have more to do with the "all men must serve" part of the saying - so making the point that they rendered service.

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Many interesting things in this thread. Let's start with the chapter in TWOW.



GRRM plays with words: Mercy recieves a gift and then she delivers the gift of mercy. Har!



She was sent to Izembaro to follow her training. She has already killed profesionally, so it can only mean killing. And the kill must have some purpose.



FM want to hinder Swift's mission. We don't know why, but that's clear. They make see that one of his men raped and murdered a girl.


1. They send Arya as a sweet pretty girl, able fo entice a guardsman.


2. Arya sheds a lot of blood in Mercy's room


3. She leaves a trail of blood behind.


4. Mercy will disapear.



Braavos' justice will see that Ralf when with Mercy to her room, where he raped and murdered her. Then he took the coprse out, threw it to the channels, and fled.


Much trouble to Cersei's envoy.



Arya knowing Ralf was an accident... and a gift.


The weapon must have been a mercy's tool: some kind of thin sharp blade long enough to reach a vital organ without much pain.


C'mon, the gift of mercy is not about beheading people, just help them die easy.



What will happen? Nothing, IMO. FM have hired Arya on intent. They pretend her to kill someone being Arya Stark. (Jon Snow? who knows.) They don't care if she knows her victims. Besides, I think the problem is about feelings: it's wrong that she finds a pleasure in murder. And she might have liked it, but I think she did such a good job.


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What will happen? Nothing, IMO. FM have hired Arya on intent. They pretend her to kill someone being Arya Stark. (Jon Snow? who knows.) They don't care if she knows her victims. Besides, I think the problem is about feelings: it's wrong that she finds a pleasure in murder. And she might have liked it, but I think she did such a good job.

It is interesting that this thread is predicated on the assumption that during her apprenticeship with Izembaro that she does not receive a 'contract' from the House of Black and White.

We have no other Arya chapters from WoW , so we don't know.

The assumption is made that this is , maybe?, Arya's first chapter in Winds, and we don't know that.

An odd thing about Mercy is that Arya has been with Izembaro's company long enough, a year or so?, so be totally familiar with the company...

Could be that Izembaro is a FM and just communicated the assignment to her.

Mercy is an odd , almost lyrical chapter, like nothing else George has written for Arya before, it almost has a Shakespearean complexity to it, especially in the last few paragraphs.

Arya still has 'wolf dreams' and apparently Needle (even if it's that's not Needle in the story)... but it is a different Arya.

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Many interesting things in this thread. Let's start with the chapter in TWOW.

GRRM plays with words: Mercy recieves a gift and then she delivers the gift of mercy. Har!

She was sent to Izembaro to follow her training. She has already killed profesionally, so it can only mean killing. And the kill must have some purpose.

FM want to hinder Swift's mission. We don't know why, but that's clear. They make see that one of his men raped and murdered a girl.

1. They send Arya as a sweet pretty girl, able fo entice a guardsman.

2. Arya sheds a lot of blood in Mercy's room

3. She leaves a trail of blood behind.

4. Mercy will disapear.

Braavos' justice will see that Ralf when with Mercy to her room, where he raped and murdered her. Then he took the coprse out, threw it to the channels, and fled.

Much trouble to Cersei's envoy.

Arya knowing Ralf was an accident... and a gift.

The weapon must have been a mercy's tool: some kind of thin sharp blade long enough to reach a vital organ without much pain.

C'mon, the gift of mercy is not about beheading people, just help them die easy.

What will happen? Nothing, IMO. FM have hired Arya on intent. They pretend her to kill someone being Arya Stark. (Jon Snow? who knows.) They don't care if she knows her victims. Besides, I think the problem is about feelings: it's wrong that she finds a pleasure in murder. And she might have liked it, but I think she did such a good job.

Where does this scenario come from...there is absolutely no text, no implication. no eye wink for you to come to your assumption.....

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?

If she had a sword hidden up her sleeve, she wouldn't be able to bend her arm all night. Sorry if me and everyone else who are trying to get you to understand this haven't been clear. If the going estimation of needle is 24 inches from tip to handle, I'm telling you that even in your baggiest of robes you wouldn't be able to hide something that long up your sleeve, and still be able to bend your arm. I suppose she coulda hid the "blade" anywhere else in her mummer's cloak, but she effortlessly slid it down her sleeve to "slash" his throat as she stood over him.

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And how do I make it anymore clear it was a CLOAK not a shirt, not jacket, a not a jumper...

Cloaks by their nature have arm holes or slits....this one has three secret pockets...the Real BLADE was hidden in a secret pocket as noted in the text

It doesn't matter!!

The blade slid out of her SLEEVE. A sleeve is, by definition, something that fits over the arm! It is not longer than the arm and anything in it hinders mobility beyond the elbow.

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I said robe, and referenced that it was a mummer's cloak (I'm glad you know EXACTLY what hers looked like, and where the secret pockets were, because the rest of us don't) but they call it a real "blade" not a braavos sword, or a real sword, or I dunno Needle, but a blade, one that slashes throats.


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