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Ygrain

Wenda the White Fawn, Septa Lemore and the Toynes

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The credits for this idea go solely and exclusively to Fire Eater, and this thread is a sort of joint effort.


The long story short: Septa Lemore might be Wenda the White Fawn of the Kingswood Brotherhood. There would be a connection between her nickname (the origin of which is not explained) and her white septa robes, she used to be fair when she was young, and as a former outlaw, she definitely is one who “must needs hide“. After the Brotherhood was crushed, her fate is never mentioned, unlike of the other prominent Brotherhood members’.


Even if Wenda is not Lemore, the Kingswood Brotherhood still seems to play some role as an exposition of sorts. Let us take a look at what we learn about them, and when:


AGOT:


no references



ACOK:


no references



ASOS:


We learn of the existence of the Brotherhood and its most prominent figures – Simon Toyne, the Smiling Knight and Wenda the White Fawn. There are multiple references in Jaime’s PoV, Barristan mentions that Toyne as a Mystery Knight was unhorsed by Rhaegar, there is a black brother Ulmer of the Kingswood, presumably the last surviving member, BWB sing a song about them, Arya wants to ride with BWB like Wenda used to, and we have Merrett Frey’s charming little tale how he was captured by Wenda and branded with a fawn on his rear part. Besides, we learn of another Toyne, Torrence, who lost his head for sleeping with the king’s mistress and brought about the fall of his house.



AFFC:


We hear again of Merrett’s misadventure and Wenda’s habit, as well as of poor Torrence Toyne.



ADWD:


Ulmer of the Kingswood gets some spotlight and his outlaw history is reminded, along with Simon Toyne and Wenda. There also appears one Miles Toyne, captain-general of the Golden Company.



- All in all, the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Toynes get an awful lot of references in multiple PoVs for something that doesn’t play any important role in the story. The problem is, Miles, the only Toyne who might have benefited from such an exposition, is long dead, so there must be something yet else. Enters Wenda, who either may have been a Toyne herself, or may have been of House Cafferen (from Stormlands close to the Kingswood, the sigil of two white fawns) and was Toyne’s wife/mistress, in the style of Robin and Lady Marion. It is even possible that the child she had was Toyne’s, and that being pregnant was what saved her life when the Brotherhood was crushed.



PS This is NOT a thread about why Lemore is or is not Ashara, this is a thread about Wenda. Anyone who mentions Ashara…goats.


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Could be. A character quite mentioned by other characters and it's probably thought dead by others who don't often think of her... sounds familiar.



I wonder if she was either sent or went by her own to the other Toyne from the GC, who sent her to Aegon and Connington. Remember that Jon needed a squire and Duck was sent.




(FUCK! All of the wikies of her, Duck, Toyne are down! It's a conspiracy!!!)


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Could be. A character quite mentioned by other characters and it's probably thought dead by others who don't often think of her... sounds familiar.

I wonder if she was either sent or went by her own to the other Toyne from the GC, who sent her to Aegon and Connington. Remember that Jon needed a squire and Duck was sent.

(FUCK! All of the wikies of her, Duck, Toyne are down! It's a conspiracy!!!)

*Picks up phone dials number*

"They know"

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:D



To develop a little on the Robin - Marion parallel: except the obvious, Marion being a lady, I wonder whether Wenda had been a septa before she joined the Brotherhood or became one only afterwards. If she had been one, then she is a cross between Lady Marion and Friar Tuck :D



Any ideas how Wenda survived and escaped punishment? I wonder whether Arthur Dayne might have taken pity on her (especially if she was pregnant) and sent her to septas instead of delivering her to Aerys' justice, knowing all too well what Aerys might do. There is a SSM asking how Dayne dealt with Aerys' atrocities and the answer was keep reading, so he may have taken some leeway with his vows whenever it was possible.


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:D

To develop a little on the Robin - Marion parallel: except the obvious, Marion being a lady, I wonder whether Wenda had been a septa before she joined the Brotherhood or became one only afterwards. If she had been one, then she is a cross between Lady Marion and Friar Tuck :D

Any ideas how Wenda survived and escaped punishment? I wonder whether Arthur Dayne might have taken pity on her (especially if she was pregnant) and sent her to septas instead of delivering her to Aerys' justice, knowing all too well what Aerys might do. There is a SSM asking how Dayne dealt with Aerys' atrocities and the answer was keep reading, so he may have taken some leeway with his vows whenever it was possible.

Maybe he's the father of her child! D:!!!

In the wiki (it's working now) she's depicted as blonde. Is she described anywhere? I'm always imagined her blonde, maybe because of that.

(Damn, in Rhaegar's times, even the bandits were "romantic": They stole Elia's jewels and a kiss... that's romantic at its finest =( )

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Lemore being Wenda is my favorite among the "Who is Lemore" theories especially because of parallels it creates between Wenda and Arya and between Aegon and Jon.



Wenda and Arya:



Arya rejects becoming the next Wenda. However, if Wenda became Septa Lemore, then Arya may have ended up following Wenda's footsteps after all. After leaving outlaw groups, both became affiliated with religious orders and left Westeros for Essos. Given Wenda's past and connections and where Lemore ended up, it's seems likely Wenda-Lemore is hungry for vengeance too.



Aegon and Jon:



I think both of them having a former member of the Kingswood Brotherhood as supporters provides more evidence of them being foils and demonstrates the competition between Varys and Bloodraven. In short, I think Bloodraven is playing, "Anything you can do, I can do better." If Aegon gets Wenda, then Jon gets Ulmer. Aegon gets taught by Haldon Halfmaester, Jon gets Maester Aemon. And so on. Since Aegon doesn't seem to be living up to what Varys says to Kevan but Jon does, I think Bloodraven is very pleased with how he's playing against Varys.


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Wow, nice thought. Wenda has been an interesting character every time she comes up, and I don't remember a physical description given of her and I always wondered what happened to her...but the Septa Lemore theory never dawned on me:) What was the Kingswood Brotherhood all about? What was there genesis? I can't recall.


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Maybe he's the father of her child! D:!!!

In the wiki (it's working now) she's depicted as blonde. Is she described anywhere? I'm always imagined her blonde, maybe because of that.

(Damn, in Rhaegar's times, even the bandits were "romantic": They stole Elia's jewels and a kiss... that's romantic at its finest =( )

I think this is just an interpretation of Wenda based on the description that she is "young and fair." There are no mention of her hair color that I can remember, but the "fair" could have imo, been taken to mean "pale" or "fair-haired"... even though in books, GRRM has used “fair” without discriminating... it’s a cool word that way, since it has two meanings, and he can pick which one suits his purpose.

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snip

this is my favorite theory, I've to admit ;)

thumbs up to Fire Eater for coming up with it all! I remember reading a post about Wenda, some time ago, but as far as I know this is the first it's been elaborated...good work Ygrain!

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I don't agree with this theory at all.



First things first- we have exactly zero evidence pointing out towards the possibility that Lemore is Wendy the White Fawn. Your line of thinking:




- All in all, the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Toynes get an awful lot of references in multiple PoVs for something that doesn’t play any important role in the story. The problem is, Miles, the only Toyne who might have benefited from such an exposition, is long dead, so there must be something yet else. Enters Wenda, who either may have been a Toyne herself, or may have been of House Cafferen (from Stormlands close to the Kingswood, the sigil of two white fawns) and was Toyne’s wife/mistress, in the style of Robin and Lady Marion. It is even possible that the child she had was Toyne’s, and that being pregnant was what saved her life when the Brotherhood was crushed.




is, IMO, erroneous in two ways:


1) few references we have about the Toynes among several thousands pages of text are not a „awful lot“


2) the very idea that someone who is referenced must have a role in the story does not (necessarily) hold water. A character can be referenced e.g. as a means for another's character's development or as part of the worldbuilding. Reynes are referenced a number of times, and yet it's obvious they won't be playing any part of the story; references are there just to show Tywin's character. Arthur Dayne gets a number of mentions, but being dead prevents him from being influential to the present storyline. The reason he is mentioned so much is because his character explores important themes of virtue, knighthood, honour etc. , not because he'll play any part in the story to follow. Ulmer gets his backstory expanded? So did Daemon and Pyp, by the way. Merret talks about his past in his POV? And so do Chett and Varamyr – for their backstory widens their character in precious few pages they have as POV before being killed.



Next, I don't think Wendy is important enough to be Lemore. While Lemore is one of the main characters in Aegon subplot, while Wendy gets off-handedly mentioned two or three times in the entire series. I'd guarantee that if you told this theory to 10 casual ASOIAF fans, 8 would reply: Wendy who? We, as readers, know are are invested in Lemore, but are not so in Wendy (because we know next to nothing of her). In a way, Lemore being Wendy would downgrade Lemore's character.



And finally, even if you ignore the above, there are problems of Lemore's characterization and motivation. Wendy spent her youth fighting against the Targ king, so why the hell would she dedicate her life to supporting his heir? Wendy was quite a martial person (she must have been, being an outlaw leader), while Lemore is pious and calm. Wendy was an outlaw most of her life, so how would she learn so much of Faith to teach (and teach well) Aegon of it?



All in all, it's a theory no evidence but many many holes, in my opinion.



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I don't see any evidence for this. It's a 'wouldn't it be nice if these two were connected' idea. But really all we've got is two women who age wise might and that only because we know nothing about Wenda's age, be connected.



But even if they were it doesn't add to the story, because the exploits of the kingswood outlaws and Wenda branding Merritt on the bum appears to have no bearing on Septa Lemore's later activities. We don't gain anything in understanding or insight by yoking these two characters together.


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I don't agree with this theory at all.

First things first- we have exactly zero evidence pointing out towards the possibility that Lemore is Wendy the White Fawn. Your line of thinking:

is, IMO, erroneous in two ways:

1) few references we have about the Toynes among several thousands pages of text are not a „awful lot“

2) the very idea that someone who is referenced must have a role in the story does not (necessarily) hold water. A character can be referenced e.g. as a means for another's character's development or as part of the worldbuilding. Reynes are referenced a number of times, and yet it's obvious they won't be playing any part of the story; references are there just to show Tywin's character. Arthur Dayne gets a number of mentions, but being dead prevents him from being influential to the present storyline. The reason he is mentioned so much is because his character explores important themes of virtue, knighthood, honour etc. , not because he'll play any part in the story to follow. Ulmer gets his backstory expanded? So did Daemon and Pyp, by the way. Merret talks about his past in his POV? And so do Chett and Varamyr – for their backstory widens their character in precious few pages they have as POV before being killed.

Next, I don't think Wendy is important enough to be Lemore. While Lemore is one of the main characters in Aegon subplot, while Wendy gets off-handedly mentioned two or three times in the entire series. I'd guarantee that if you told this theory to 10 casual ASOIAF fans, 8 would reply: Wendy who? We, as readers, know are are invested in Lemore, but are not so in Wendy (because we know next to nothing of her). In a way, Lemore being Wendy would downgrade Lemore's character.

And finally, even if you ignore the above, there are problems of Lemore's characterization and motivation. Wendy spent her youth fighting against the Targ king, so why the hell would she dedicate her life to supporting his heir? Wendy was quite a martial person (she must have been, being an outlaw leader), while Lemore is pious and calm. Wendy was an outlaw most of her life, so how would she learn so much of Faith to teach (and teach well) Aegon of it?

All in all, it's a theory no evidence but many many holes, in my opinion.

I disagree. The references appear across several PoVs, we even have a repetition of rather insubstantial information of Merrett's branded ass, and there is a connection to Miles Toyne who was partial to the Aegon scheme. As for Wenda being unimportant - well, JonCon was unimportant prior ADWD, as well.

You might have a point with Wenda's motivation, but if she has a connection to Miles Toyne, through Simon, that might be covered, as well.

Wenda being an outlaw most of her life has no text basis, I'm afraid. We don't know who or what she was before she joined the outlaws, and if you notice my Friar Tuck reference upthread, she may have been a runaway septa. Alternately, she might have been with the septas after the Brotherhood was crushed. Your objection that becoming a septa would be out of character for her holds no water, as we see right in the series examples of people who have had a change of heart and become religious.

I don't see any evidence for this. It's a 'wouldn't it be nice if these two were connected' idea. But really all we've got is two women who age wise might and that only because we know nothing about Wenda's age, be connected.

But even if they were it doesn't add to the story, because the exploits of the kingswood outlaws and Wenda branding Merritt on the bum appears to have no bearing on Septa Lemore's later activities. We don't gain anything in understanding or insight by yoking these two characters together.

We do know that Wenda was young and fair during her days with the Brotherhood, which does fit for handsome middle-aged Lemore.

Eh... what we gain or not is a bit pretimely to judge, IMHO. We are to learn something about Arthur Dayne, she may be one of the sources. If people (e.g. Jaime) recognizes her, it might complicate things for Aegon.

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I'd guarantee that if you told this theory to 10 casual ASOIAF fans, 8 would reply: Wendy who?

10/10 I suspect

.

There is no Wendy, its Wenda. :P

I don't see any evidence for this. It's a 'wouldn't it be nice if these two were connected' idea. But really all we've got is two women who age wise might and that only because we know nothing about Wenda's age, be connected.

But even if they were it doesn't add to the story, because the exploits of the kingswood outlaws and Wenda branding Merritt on the bum appears to have no bearing on Septa Lemore's later activities. We don't gain anything in understanding or insight by yoking these two characters together.

This. It lacks data, the connections are too vague and it doesn't show, at this stage, any forward positives.

To me it looks like over-analysis and a desperate attempt to find a non-Ashara explanation for Lemore (all the other alternatives lack solid arguments for and have significant flaws against).

Goats to you too. B)

That said, its not impossible and shouldn't be entirely ruled out. It just doesn't have enough real backing to be called a viable 'theory' (IMO obviously). Yet.

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10/10 I suspect

.

There is no Wendy, its Wenda. :P

This. It lacks data, the connections are too vague and it doesn't show, at this stage, any forward positives.

To me it looks like over-analysis and a desperate attempt to find a non-Ashara explanation for Lemore (all the other alternatives lack solid arguments for and have significant flaws against).

Goats to you too. B)

That said, its not impossible and shouldn't be entirely ruled out. It just doesn't have enough real backing to be called a viable 'theory' (IMO obviously). Yet.

:D

Is why I say "might be" right in the OP, not "I think she is", but I do think that there is more to the Kingswood brotherhood than just a cool detail. Really, quite a few PoVs are somehow involved, out of which the most curious are Sam's and Jon's. Why do we need a once famous outlaw on the Wall?

Come to think of it: Wenda was infamous for branding the buttocks of her high-born male captives with a fawn. That is rather personal - might she have been dishonoured (and possibly impregnated) by a noble and forced to become a septa afterwards?

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Eh... what we gain or not is a bit pretimely to judge, IMHO. We are to learn something about Arthur Dayne, she may be one of the sources. If people (e.g. Jaime) recognizes her, it might complicate things for Aegon.

How? She's not really that dangerous.

While it's not completely clear, looks like Lemore/Wenda joined Aegon ONLY to teach him about the Faith, she wasn't there as a wetnurse or some sort of "nanny" to take care of toddler Aegon. Maybe she was BEFORE Connington was given the child, but I doubt it. Mostly people from Aegon's party was sent by someone from the GC. Duck was a smith and then a squire and Strickland sent him to Jon. And Haldon is recognised by the man who greeted Jon and Aegon too, maybe because he could have been part or friend of the GC (they would need a Maester).

If Lemore is Wenda, then I guess she could have been sent by someone from there too. Aegon has been taught by a septa since he was old enough, but that's vague. If we say that age is seven, that's around ten years before current time, when Myles Toyne was still the captain there. There is no evidence that Connington knew her from before he got Aegon, so, I say she wasn't part of the GC in any way, unless of course she, by some reason, travelled to Essos during the years Aegon wasn't meant to receive religious education. And Toyne then sent her to them, knowing that besides knowing about the faith, she can take care of herself.

Or... she's not septa. If she was before a noble lady or member of a lesser House (Simon Toyne was, kinda), she's only giving her some basic education on the Faith. But that I doubt.

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How? She's not really that dangerous.

While it's not completely clear, looks like Lemore/Wenda joined Aegon ONLY to teach him about the Faith, she wasn't there as a wetnurse or some sort of "nanny" to take care of toddler Aegon. Maybe she was BEFORE Connington was given the child, but I doubt it. Mostly people from Aegon's party was sent by someone from the GC. Duck was a smith and then a squire and Strickland sent him to Jon. And Haldon is recognised by the man who greeted Jon and Aegon too, maybe because he could have been part or friend of the GC (they would need a Maester).

If Lemore is Wenda, then I guess she could have been sent by someone from there too. Aegon has been taught by a septa since he was old enough, but that's vague. If we say that age is seven, that's around ten years before current time, when Myles Toyne was still the captain there. There is no evidence that Connington knew her from before he got Aegon, so, I say she wasn't part of the GC in any way, unless of course she, by some reason, travelled to Essos during the years Aegon wasn't meant to receive religious education. And Toyne then sent her to them, knowing that besides knowing about the faith, she can take care of herself.

Or... she's not septa. If she was before a noble lady or member of a lesser House (Simon Toyne was, kinda), she's only giving her some basic education on the Faith. But that I doubt.

If she was recognized as a former outlaw, it might cast further doubt at Aegon's identity.

And yes, there would probably be the GC connection, and I really wonder why we get a Toyne in Brotherhood and another in GC.

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I don't deny the possibility. It is certain that Lemore is not Lemore. It makes sense if a surviving outlaw finds a place among the GC due to the Toynes.



But if Lemore is Mellario of Norvos, it makes an enormous impact to the story unlike Wenda.


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I don't deny the possibility. It is certain that Lemore is not Lemore. It makes sense if a surviving outlaw finds a place among the GC due to the Toynes.

But if Lemore is Mellario of Norvos, it makes an enormous impact to the story unlike Wenda.

No one cares for Mellario of Norvos

And why schould she live with Aegon?

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No one cares for Mellario of Norvos

And why schould she live with Aegon?

It can explain why Doran seemingly gave up with the true Targaryens if they cast their lots with Aegon and working with Varys/Illyrio for some time. Quentyn's mission to Dany was doomed from the beginning. Doran didnot lift as much a finger to make the mission succesful. It looks like only the attempt to summon Dany was enough for him.

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The idea that Lemore is Mellario is absurd and has absolutely no logical reasoning to it. Now I'm not sold on her being Wenda either but it is IMO a lot more plausible than Mellario. I think the word white in Wenda's Monica is interesting it does imply that either she was indeed a runaway Septa as Septas dress in white, maybe she gained the fawn as she was young, quick, beautiful, rarely sighted and hard to capture? Or maybe she was a member of house Cafferen, whose sigil is indeed two white Fawns. If it we're say the former I can see her as Lemore, but if the latter then not as likely. Still possible as Ygrain points out Ser Arthur could have sent the young Wenda to the Septas rather than execute a pregnant young woman. It's more plausible than many of the other Lemore theories I've seen that's for sure!

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