Wenda the White Fawn, Septa Lemore and the Toynes

[eternal_got]

Sorry i don't believe the whole "Toyne are Blackfyre"supporter" Story

• House Toyne was a sworn enemy of Daemon Blackfyre father Aegon IV (see Terrence Toyne and his brothers)
  
• There is no hint that the Toynes were fighting for the Blackfyre during any of there rebellions
  
• not everyone serving in the Golden Company has something to do with House Blackfyre . It's a sellsword company after all ...
  
• Myles Tyone most likley joined the Golden Company after the death of Maelys Blackfyre
  
• He was possible named captain-general as part of the show that the Golden Company is Blackfyre free
  
• The chance is great that Myles Toyne (who was full with life) was "replaced" with someone from the Old Guard (The Reachman Harry Strickland) because Myles and his House were no Blackfyre supporter and his friendship with his fellow Stromlander Jon Connington was a security risk:
  

His "death" was more a hint that he was danger for Vary's/illyrio's plans and that Aegon is really Blackfyre

[Mithras]

“For that matter, why would you? Slavery may be forbidden by the laws of Pentos, yet you have a finger in that trade as well, and maybe a whole hand. And yet you conspire for the dragon queen, and not against her. Why? What do you hope to gain from Queen Daenerys?”

“Are we back to that again? You are a persistent little man.” Illyrio gave a laugh and slapped his belly. “As you will. The Beggar King swore that I should be his master of coin, and a lordly lord as well. Once he wore his golden crown, I should have my choice of castles … even Casterly Rock, if I desired.”

Tyrion snorted wine back up the scarred stump that had been his nose. “My father would have loved to hear that.”

“Your lord father had no cause for concern. Why would I want a rock? My manse is large enough for any man, and more comfortable than your drafty Westerosi castles. Master of coin, though …” The fat man peeled another egg. “I am fond of coins. Is there any sound as sweet as the clink of gold on gold?”

“Are you quite certain that Daenerys will make good her brother’s promises?”

“She will, or she will not.” Illyrio bit the egg in half. “I told you, my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles.

The position of Illyrio is well known to us. He claims that he is in for gold and he also has debts of affection to repay. It is clear that he cares little and less about the gold and castles. He is doing it for the family and blood.

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant.

Doran went to Volantis and from there to Norvos where he fell in love with Mellario. It is highly possible that they returned the same way and made appearance in Volantis. Also if Mellario is from an important merchant family of Norvos, she might be already known in Volantis. We also know that Oberyn was able to father a bastard from a noble woman from Old Blood in Volantis. I think House Martell is well known in Volantis.

Therefore, if Lemore is Mellario, perhaps she was removing her disguise and returning to her true identity when she changed her clothes from septa to a member of a merchant family in Selhorys. We know that once in Westeros, she returned to Septa robes again.

He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Tyrion suspects that Lemore is not in for gold in this campaign. Wenda would probably do this for castles, lands etc. but Lemore does not seem to care about anything except the prince. Lemore’s position and manners seem similar to Illyrio. That is why, Wenda’s backstory is not so compatible with the behavior of Lemore.

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. “What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa’s robes, Lemore.”

“I preferred her naked,” said Tyrion.

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. “That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa’s robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us.” She turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”

This also implies that Haldon does not know who she really is (or he fakes).

[Greymoon]

"It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead."

Lemore says "your old friend" when speaking of Myles. This makes me think that they do not have a history together.

...Wenda had a history with Simon Toyne, not Myles Toyne...even if Myles took her in, she wouldn't necessarily consider him as a "friend" I think...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just realised... when Jaime is reading Barristan's entry, there is a small story of how they rescued Jayne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood. There must be something there...

[Ygrain]

I just realised... when Jaime is reading Barristan's entry, there is a small story of how they rescued Jayne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood. There must be something there...

Ah, missed that one, thanks for the reminder.

[walkingWITHcersei]

Ah, missed that one, thanks for the reminder.

The Rouge Prince rules the Jayne Swann option out. Though her Septa isn't off the table?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The Rouge Prince rules the Jayne Swann option out. Though her Septa isn't off the table?

What do you mean? Rogue is more than 100 years before the brotherhood.

[Visenya the Dragon]

Nice theory. I would need to do a reread of ADWD again for a personal connection between Wenda and Septa Lemore. I see the connections between Toyne and GC. It could be possible.

I found House Belmore when I looked up House Arryn and caught my eye. So House Belmore has a daughter named only as Lady Belmore married to Ronnel Arryn. They have a son together named Elbert, and Ronnel dies right after his sons birth, making Elbert Jon Arryn's heir. Elbert was apart of the party that goes with Brandon Stark to KL. King Aerys had all men arrested and summoned their fathers, and had all the MEN killed except Ethan Glover. Now Elbert's father is already dead. Would that mean his mother Lady Belmore would be summoned. Well I doubt House Belmore would let her go into a dangerous situation. So it could be possible she went into hiding. Now why would Lady Belmore help a Targ is the question I have been pondering. Maybe if she knows he is a Blackfyre. I am not sure but this seems to have a lot of personal connections.

So could septa Lemore be Lady Belmore?

[Ygrain]

Now, that is an interesting catch - wouldn't you think that if Elbert was Jon's heir, Jon might have been summoned to answer for him?

I don't think that lady Belmore is supposed to make an appearance as I don't recall any buildup leading to this; the character shouldn't appear just out of the thin air if she is connected to the events of the Rebellion, she should have been at least mentioned.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Personally I find it better than any other "Septa Lemore theory". Varys tends to take advantage of hire people who are in deep trouble so a wanted outlaw would fit the bill. The text implies that Lemore is not as oblivious as JonCon and probably knows more about Young Griff's true identity. Who better have in on a scheme than an ex-con? More likely though she is only kept one step ahead of JonCon but is overall ignorant of the whole scheme. I presume her motivation for joining could be primarily safety and money and secondary exoneration and possibly restoration of her stolen claim/inheritance (if she was a lady) once Aegon takes the throne.

That said, there is really no evidence to back it up. It's just putting two unrelated characters together and trying to figure out if they have anything in common, which they always do :-)

The Brotherhood is mentioned occasionally but Wenda is pretty much a nobody in the ASoIaF world and her theoretical child even more so. But Septa Lemore will probably won't be any more important than Septa Mordane either so it doesn't matter if she has a secret identity or not. Wenda = Lemore would be fun and I would like it to be true but ultimately it would have very little impact on the story.

Ashara = Lemore makes far more sense for plot reasons but I truly hope it is not the case.

[Visenya the Dragon]

Now, that is an interesting catch - wouldn't you think that if Elbert was Jon's heir, Jon might have been summoned to answer for him?

I don't think that lady Belmore is supposed to make an appearance as I don't recall any buildup leading to this; the character shouldn't appear just out of the thin air if she is connected to the events of the Rebellion, she should have been at least mentioned.

Lady Belmore was mentioned in affc chapter 23 in Alyane chapter, only once. The name caught my eye. The reason for hiding is the issue I had.

I did a reread of Tyrion chapter in book page180.And found this

[The waters of the Rhoyne slowly went from black to blue, to match the sellsword's hair and beard.Grief got his feet.]

-joncon loyal to black(targ) to blue(secret)to help secret targ

Same page- [The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, Marron and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked to be a dragon.]

This could be a clue to who they are. At this time in the books Tyrion does not know who young Griff is. Just not sure how it all will come together. I need to look into the houses for this.

[fuelpagan_tw]

Interesting, but I'm placing my bet that Wenda is now Lysono Maar.

[Hos the Hostage]

Lemore being Wenda is my favorite among the "Who is Lemore" theories especially because of parallels it creates between Wenda and Arya and between Aegon and Jon.

Wenda and Arya:

Arya rejects becoming the next Wenda. However, if Wenda became Septa Lemore, then Arya may have ended up following Wenda's footsteps after all. After leaving outlaw groups, both became affiliated with religious orders and left Westeros for Essos. Given Wenda's past and connections and where Lemore ended up, it's seems likely Wenda-Lemore is hungry for vengeance too.

Aegon and Jon:

I think both of them having a former member of the Kingswood Brotherhood as supporters provides more evidence of them being foils and demonstrates the competition between Varys and Bloodraven. In short, I think Bloodraven is playing, "Anything you can do, I can do better." If Aegon gets Wenda, then Jon gets Ulmer. Aegon gets taught by Haldon Halfmaester, Jon gets Maester Aemon. And so on. Since Aegon doesn't seem to be living up to what Varys says to Kevan but Jon does, I think Bloodraven is very pleased with how he's playing against Varys.

Bloodraven FTW!

Since Aegon doesn't seem to be living up to what Varys says to Kevan..:- I always thought that the person who really fits that description is Arya.

[Fire Eater]

I just realised... when Jaime is reading Barristan's entry, there is a small story of how they rescued Jayne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood. There must be something there...

Good catch

[Frey family reunion]

I just realised... when Jaime is reading Barristan's entry, there is a small story of how they rescued Jayne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood. There must be something there...

I believe that Jayne's septa may have been Wenda in disguise. I think Jayne may have been a sympathizer with the Kingswood Brotherhood much like her neice/daughter Ravella Smallwood is a sympathizer with the BWB.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm kinda digging this idea. It's by no means conclusive, but certainly makes more sense than the other possibilities floating around:

- Ashara Dayne: Lemore had no dyed hair (she bathed in the river everyday) and no purple eyes (and of course there are no such thing as contact lenses in Planetos. Besides, Tyrion was already suspicious of Valyrian features after discovering Aegon, so he would have found out

- Mellario of Norvos: Arianne is short like her mother, about five foot two, and nowhere does Tyrion remark on Lemore's height, which he would have if she was short when compared to the average of women in Westeros. Also, why on earth would Doran send his son on an incredibly dangerous mission if he already knew of another, more accesible Targ? It's just bonkers

- Tyene's mother: Again, the hair. Lemore and Oberyn are both brunettes and they go and have a blond kid? I don't think so

I believe that Jayne's septa may have been Wenda in disguise. I think Jayne may have been a sympathizer with the Kingswood Brotherhood much like her neice/daughter Ravella Smallwood is a sympathizer with the BWB.

I like this, I like this very much. Wenda could have done like the thieves in "Inside Man" to get out of dodge

[Jon's Queen Consort]

- Ashara Dayne: Lemore had no dyed hair (she bathed in the river everyday) and no purple eyes (and of course there are no such thing as contact lenses in Planetos. Besides, Tyrion was already suspicious of Valyrian features after discovering Aegon, so he would have found out

I believe that Lemore=Ashara is one of the worst if not the worst so called theories around her but I don't see why the hair matter at all. Ashara is fair because she is beautifull not because she is blonde, Barry remembers her as black haired:

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes.

[corbon]

I'm kinda digging this idea. It's by no means conclusive, but certainly makes more sense than the other possibilities floating around:

- Ashara Dayne: Lemore had no dyed hair (she bathed in the river everyday) and no purple eyes (and of course there are no such thing as contact lenses in Planetos. Besides, Tyrion was already suspicious of Valyrian features after discovering Aegon, so he would have found out

Lemore has dark brown hair, Ashara had dark hair. The descriptions fit with each other without need of dye.

Lemore eye colour is not mentioned.

Purple eyes don't actually look purple most of the time, unless you 'know' already they are purple or the colour is brought out by clothes/accessories/makeup etc.

Ashara did not have 'valyrian' features.

Tyrion explicitly acknowledged that Lemore had secrets of her own but he decided he didn't want to bother with them.

- Mellario of Norvos: Arianne is short like her mother, about five foot two, and nowhere does Tyrion remark on Lemore's height, which he would have if she was short when compared to the average of women in Westeros. Also, why on earth would Doran send his son on an incredibly dangerous mission if he already knew of another, more accesible Targ? It's just bonkers

Yes, its bonkers. Mellario is also known to be in currently in Narvos and Doran sent one of Arrianne's friends and co-conspirators to Mellario-in-Narvos to wait out an exile there.

And there's just no payoff in this theory, just messy contradictions that result from it.

But there is a need to find an alternative to Lemore = Ashara, so people are willing to go the bonkers route.

- Tyene's mother: Again, the hair. Lemore and Oberyn are both brunettes and they go and have a blond kid? I don't think so

Indeed. Further, Tyene's mother was visited in Westeros ('across the Mander' IIRC) by Arriane and Tyene.

And there's just no payoff.

I like this, I like this very much. Wenda could have done like the thieves in "Inside Man" to get out of dodge

There is not much 'against' this theory, but there is very very little for it (just a single tenuous possible connection) and not the slightest hint of a payoff later.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Wenda is Wylla ,Jon Snow's mother.

[Fire Eater]

Lemore has dark brown hair, Ashara had dark hair. The descriptions fit with each other without need of dye.

Lemore eye colour is not mentioned.

Purple eyes don't actually look purple most of the time, unless you 'know' already they are purple or the colour is brought out by clothes/accessories/makeup etc.

Ashara did not have 'valyrian' features.

Tyrion explicitly acknowledged that Lemore had secrets of her own but he decided he didn't want to bother with them.

Except whenever Ashara is mentioned what is most remarked about her is her eyes. If they were that noticeable then I doubt Tyrion wouldn't have mentioned them given his attention to details about women's physical appearance.