Wenda the White Fawn, Septa Lemore and the Toynes

[corbon]

Except whenever Ashara is mentioned what is most remarked about her is her eyes. If they were that noticeable then I doubt Tyrion wouldn't have mentioned them given his attention to details about women's physical appearance.

Twenty years ago, as a young noblewoman, at a huge party, her eyes were her best descriptive feature. That is all.

(and its a separate discussion, really. I was just directly addressing the errors made in Jot(E)D's summary, not summarising the arguments for L=A.)

Ad GRRM gave an implicit excuse for Tyrion not to be looking at her eyes when he described her.

[Mithras]

If a person with purple eyes is hiding his/her identity, his/her eyes are always described as being blue and turning to purple under different lighting. That is the case with Dunk/Egg and Tyrion/fAegon. In the case of Ashara, Tyrion at least should have noted that she has blue eyes.

[corbon]

If a person with purple eyes is hiding his/her identity, his/her eyes are always described as being blue and turning to purple under different lighting. That is the case with Dunk/Egg and Tyrion/fAegon. In the case of Ashara, Tyrion at least should have noted that she has blue eyes.

Or not noted her eye colour at all, unusually...

Now why would GRRM do that?

[Fire Eater]

Twenty years ago, as a young noblewoman, at a huge party, her eyes were her best descriptive feature. That is all.

(and its a separate discussion, really. I was just directly addressing the errors made in Jot(E)D's summary, not summarising the arguments for L=A.)

Ad GRRM gave an implicit excuse for Tyrion not to be looking at her eyes when he described her.

Source for SSM?

There is also the question of how Ashara Dayne came to Aegon from Starfall. Why would Varys send her?

Also, wouldn't Ashara have told Varys about Jon if she thought Varys was helping the Targaryens, and ergo, Varys would know about Jon?

Tyrion would have noted her eyes like he did Aegon's, especially since he fancies her, but never mentions her eyes when describing her.

[corbon]

Source for SSM?

Implicitly.

Its not a SSM. The scene where Tyrion gives us Lemore's description she is naked and he is all over that mentally. He's not looking at her face right then. Eyes up laddie!

There is also the question of how Ashara Dayne came to Aegon from Starfall. Why would Varys send her?

She is the perfect person to take baby fAegon into exile. If you sat around making lists of who could possibly be chosen for that task, she'd be at the top of every single list.

Her family are famously honourable and almost certainly diehard Targ loyalists given Arthur's position and close friendship with Rhaegar and her close personal connection with Elia, she knew his parents personally and closely and was probably somewhat 'inner circle' (between her and Arthur), she's roughly the right age to pose as his mother, she lost a child who would have been probably the same age, she has purple eyes which help to pose as kiddie's mom, she has no prospects in Robert's new world being from a loyalist family and being a former Crown Princess Handmaid disgraced from court for sexual improprietry (getting pregnant while unwed, probably) and no family of her own (as in husband, kids etc) to stay around for.

Its actually a perfect fit in every respect. Even the timing and the supposed faked suicide method. Varys hides fAegon then after a while to let things settle down a little smuggles him into a ship (we know he knows how to do that) that goes to Essos via Starfall. Ashara receives a message, fakes her suicide and swims/rows out to the ship and takes baby fAegon to exile in Essos. That would be probably around 6-8 weeks after the sack at a rough guess.

You now have a believable mother and child combo, when if anyone was suspicious they'd be looking for a child alone (and even if they weren't a child alone is suspicious in its own right), and a carer for the child with every duty and motivation you could ask for.

Also, wouldn't Ashara have told Varys about Jon if she thought Varys was helping the Targaryens, and ergo, Varys would know about Jon?

Not required.

First, Jon's not important regardless of anything else, Aegon is the heir (of Rhaegar) and, as far as Rhaegar knew at that stage, Aegon's is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Second, that depends entirely on how much she knows about Jon, and how much she trusts Varys. We don't know that she knows any more about Jon than he is Ned's bastard by Wylla. We don't know she had anything to do with ToJ, but even if she did, did she know Lyanna was pregnant? Did she know Rhaegar and Lyanna wed? Maybe yes, maybe some, maybe all, we just don't know.

Basically that 'she should have told Varys about Jon' relies on a precise set of details that she may or may not know of, plus her fully trusting Aerys instead of just going along with his plans because they fitted her priorities and beliefs, plus her feeling that the knowledge of Jon is important to Varys or Aegon's future, plus her having the opportunity to contact Varys back early on.

Its just much much much too tenuous a combination of things to rest an objection on.

Tyrion would have noted her eyes like he did Aegon's, especially since he fancies her, but never mentions her eyes when describing her.

Yeah, but GRRM built in an excuse for that because, if you will excuse the crudity, Tyrion is busy looking at her tits, and lower, not higher, right at that exact moment.

Its inadequate to say "Tyrion would have noted her eyes" as an argument. He didn't. Period. Very unusually for him too regardless of whether they were particularly interesting or not. Face the fact, don't ignore it. We know GRRM avoided mentioning Lemore's eyes. The why did GRRM do that? question might be interesting...

[Amris]

Source for SSM?

There is also the question of how Ashara Dayne came to Aegon from Starfall. Why would Varys send her?

Also, wouldn't Ashara have told Varys about Jon if she thought Varys was helping the Targaryens, and ergo, Varys would know about Jon?

Tyrion would have noted her eyes like he did Aegon's, especially since he fancies her, but never mentions her eyes when describing her.

I am not sure whether you meant it that way but I believe you just asked several very valid questions, the answers to which might lead us to unravel GRRM's underlying plot.

***

We have a lot of very intriguing puzzle-pieces:

Ashara Dayne

Lyanna Stark

Elia of Dorne

Rhaella Targaryen

Rhaegar Targaryen

Brandon Stark

Eddard Stark

Varys

Illyrio

Daenerys

Jon

Aegon

Daenerys looks like Ashara Dayne.

Jon looks like Lyanna.

Aegon looks like a Targ.

Daenerys has dragon-dreams

Jon has wolf-dreams

About Aegon's dreams we know nothing.

We all know the church of R+L=J which seems pretty convincing. But it only fits 3 pieces together. I keep turning the other ones around but have never yet managed to fit them together in a way I was really satisfied with.

[corbon]

Daenerys looks like Ashara Dayne.

We all know the church of R+L=J which seems pretty convincing. But it only fits 3 pieces together. I keep turning the other ones around but have never yet managed to fit them together in a way I was really satisfied with.

Daenerys has similar eye colour to Ashara, not the same looks. They definitely have very different hair colour and there is no indication they have similar features.

R+L=J, properly tuned, answers every applicable question or fits each applicable piece. But not every possible question or piece is applicable to R+L=J. Not fitting inapplicable pieces is not a flaw in the theory.

[GRRM's Secrets]

Lemore = Leyla Hightower + Lucamore Strong

[Fire Eater]

Implicitly.

Its not a SSM. The scene where Tyrion gives us Lemore's description she is naked and he is all over that mentally. He's not looking at her face right then. Eyes up laddie!

Except the face is usually the first thing a man looks at when he meets a woman. Tyrion has also spent time in close quarters with her sewing so he would have noticed.

She is the perfect person to take baby fAegon into exile. If you sat around making lists of who could possibly be chosen for that task, she'd be at the top of every single list.

Her family are famously honourable and almost certainly diehard Targ loyalists given Arthur's position and close friendship with Rhaegar and her close personal connection with Elia, she knew his parents personally and closely and was probably somewhat 'inner circle' (between her and Arthur), she's roughly the right age to pose as his mother, she lost a child who would have been probably the same age, she has purple eyes which help to pose as kiddie's mom, she has no prospects in Robert's new world being from a loyalist family and being a former Crown Princess Handmaid disgraced from court for sexual improprietry (getting pregnant while unwed, probably) and no family of her own (as in husband, kids etc) to stay around for.

Its actually a perfect fit in every respect. Even the timing and the supposed faked suicide method. Varys hides fAegon then after a while to let things settle down a little smuggles him into a ship (we know he knows how to do that) that goes to Essos via Starfall. Ashara receives a message, fakes her suicide and swims/rows out to the ship and takes baby fAegon to exile in Essos. That would be probably around 6-8 weeks after the sack at a rough guess.

You now have a believable mother and child combo, when if anyone was suspicious they'd be looking for a child alone (and even if they weren't a child alone is suspicious in its own right), and a carer for the child with every duty and motivation you could ask for.

Except that leaves a lot of holes. Ashara had dark hair while Lemore's hair isn't described as such. I doubt she would have needed dye for dark hair in the RHoyne region where it is common. Also, Tyrion would have noticed if she was Dornish by way of her Dornish drawl which Lemore isn't described as having when speaking. It is stated nowhere that Ashara was disgraced from court.

You do know what "fAegon mean" right? He was never smuggled across the Narrow Sea, because he isn't Rhaegar's son.

Not required.

First, Jon's not important regardless of anything else, Aegon is the heir (of Rhaegar) and, as far as Rhaegar knew at that stage, Aegon's is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Second, that depends entirely on how much she knows about Jon, and how much she trusts Varys. We don't know that she knows any more about Jon than he is Ned's bastard by Wylla. We don't know she had anything to do with ToJ, but even if she did, did she know Lyanna was pregnant? Did she know Rhaegar and Lyanna wed? Maybe yes, maybe some, maybe all, we just don't know.

Basically that 'she should have told Varys about Jon' relies on a precise set of details that she may or may not know of, plus her fully trusting Aerys instead of just going along with his plans because they fitted her priorities and beliefs, plus her feeling that the knowledge of Jon is important to Varys or Aegon's future, plus her having the opportunity to contact Varys back early on.

Its just much much much too tenuous a combination of things to rest an objection on.

Except Ashara likely would have wanted Varys to make sure to keep tabs on Jon so he would be safe. Second, she likely did know as Ned arrived with Jon after visiting the ToJ, and the gestation period is nine months and I doubt Ned spent that much time at the ToJ obviously. Ned never met Wylla up to that point. Also, Arthur may have sent news to Starfall that Lyanna was expecting.

Trusting Aerys? How was he involved? The knowledge of Rhaegar having a second trueborn son clearly is important. It means there is another heir in case anything happens to Aegon, and he is in Westeros where he can perform some actions for the restoration of House Targaryen. Plus with contacting Varys early on, you just said Varys contacted her some time after the sack to go to Aegon. You are saying Varys just sent a letter to her and she went along willingly? I doubt that. There would have to have been more communication than that.

Yeah, but GRRM built in an excuse for that because, if you will excuse the crudity, Tyrion is busy looking at her tits, and lower, not higher, right at that exact moment.

Its inadequate to say "Tyrion would have noted her eyes" as an argument. He didn't. Period. Very unusually for him too regardless of whether they were particularly interesting or not. Face the fact, don't ignore it. We know GRRM avoided mentioning Lemore's eyes. The why did GRRM do that? question might be interesting...

See above, Tyrion wasn't staring at her chest the whole time. She was clothed most of the time, and he spent time close to her. He would have noticed. That is not GRRM building an excuse unless you have an SSM saying otherwise.

[Ygrain]

Le sigh.

Guys... goats time, remember?

[Visenya the Dragon]

Just finished a reread of ADWD and I would say the White Fawn is Pretty Meris.

[corbon]

Le sigh.

Guys... goats time, remember?

Censorship? :cool4:

With the lunatics running, or over-running at least, the asylum, there seems so little to be worth the effort these days. I'll take what I can when I can, sorry my friend. I didn't bring it up, or advance all the details, but will fight disinformation and false arguments and answer questions where and when appropriate (and I have the energy/will).

Except the face is usually the first thing a man looks at when he meets a woman. Tyrion has also spent time in close quarters with her sewing so he would have noticed.

Not at the time when he gave us the description of Lemore. He'd been avoiding her mostly because he was still stinky but didn't want to bath the way the others did because of both the giant snapping turtles and he didn't want her to see him naked.

But really, these are semantics. The point is that at the time when Tyrion gives us his semi-description of Lemore, she is at that exact moment naked, and he's spent the night masturbating over her. And he's watching the water trickle dowm between her breasts as she puts her septa crystal back on.

Its not really relevant whether he's noticed her eyes before that or not (in point of fact he's already assessed that she has her secrets, like all the others but he's too consumed by her body to care about her secrets), but that right then, as he gives us her description, his focus is not on her eyes, but elsewhere. GRRM chose to do that. It does give him an 'out', whether one considers it a good 'out' or not, for not revealing Lemore's eye colour to us yet.

Except that leaves a lot of holes. Ashara had dark hair while Lemore's hair isn't described as such.

Simply wrong. Lemore has dark brown hair.

Also, Tyrion would have noticed if she was Dornish by way of her Dornish drawl which Lemore isn't described as having when speaking.

And if Lemore is Ashara, she's highborn, which means she is almost certain to have a more refined natural accent. So not necessarily a 'common' dornish drawl.

"Doran!" called some highborn voice. "To the spears!"

You can tell a highborn dornish voice from a common one apparently just from the accent, not any particular words. Unless "Doran! To the Spears!" is some obviously lowborn way of phrasing things.

That refined accent would probably have been further refined by her time at court in KL.

Further, she's been away from Dorne for nearly 20 years, playing a role as someone else. To insist that she'd have an identifiable dornish accent as Lemore is... not a very clever argument.

Funny though, that she does have golden skin. A more dornish colour than most Andals or First Men exhibit...

It is stated nowhere that Ashara was disgraced from court.

Which is why the probably.

Although... this is what we know:

She was an unwed maiden at court.

She apparently had a baby.

There's no word of a marriage.

Selmy believes a man "dishonoured" her at Harrenhal.

She 'looked to' a Stark for help, must have needed help over something.

Later, there's no mention of her at court, and she is found at home.

Gven the morality espoused by both the dominant religion and culture at court, and the historical analogous cultures, its extremely likely that a Crown Princess' Handmaid who got pregnant out of wedlock would be sent home in disgrace. Which fits all the facts we know.

So, I repeat, probably.

You do know what "fAegon mean" right? He was never smuggled across the Narrow Sea, because he isn't Rhaegar's son.

Yeah, I was deeply involved when it was coined. Its use has drifted now, but I favour the original use. What you describe above would be Faegon, indicating a firm belief in fakeness (and a lack of objectivity in assessment, given the data we have). fAegon indicates could be true, could be fake. Aegon (for Young Griff) would be used if trueness is asserted (and equal lack in objectivity in assessment being implied).

Except Ashara likely would have wanted Varys to make sure to keep tabs on Jon so he would be safe.

Once again assuming all sorts of things which we don't know and are not required by the data we do know.

Even if all your assumptions are met (and they might be, I'm not claiming that they can't be) one of the hallmarks of a successful conspiracy (and this one has been going for nearly 20 years without being exposed) is compartmentalisation. Ashara's job is fAegon, Jon is not her concern. And with fAegon being 'senior' to Jon in any circumstance, she doesn't need to fret about the backup.

Second, she likely did know as Ned arrived with Jon after visiting the ToJ, and the gestation period is nine months and I doubt Ned spent that much time at the ToJ obviously. Ned never met Wylla up to that point.

If she was involved in supporting ToJ (lets assume she was, I think its the best theory at the moment, and it is required for all your assumptions), all she needs to know is that Lyanna is there, on Rhaegar's orders. Thats the sum total of her required knowledge.

Pregnancy? Probably, but not necessarily.

Marriage? Probably but not necessarily.

Wet nurse? Probably, but not necessarily.

Wylla in person? Maybe, but not necessarily.

Where Wylla was 9+ months ago? Unlikely, not even remotely necessary.

Take any one or more of those details out of the picture and she doesn't know Jon's true heritage and can accept Ned's word/plan (especially since she's in no position to change Ned's plan/mind/actions and got a much more important project of her own to deal with).

Jon might be Rhaegar's bastard to her (a mildy interesting but not actually important detail), or Ned's bastard (then she has no reason to care) or even Rhaegar's trueborn second son but-she-has-a-job-to-do-on-the-heir-and-the-spare-is-not-her-problem.

Remember also that fAegon is the child of her friend, and probably a similar age to the child she lost, Jon is not.

Also, Arthur may have sent news to Starfall that Lyanna was expecting.

Yes. May have. Or may have been keeping it a secret, we don't know. There are many different possibilities and permutations, but you seem to be insisting on only the ones that argue against Ashara=Lemore. The truth is that many possibilities remain open.

Trusting Aerys? How was he involved? The knowledge of Rhaegar having a second trueborn son clearly is important. It means there is another heir in case anything happens to Aegon, and he is in Westeros where he can perform some actions for the restoration of House Targaryen.

Sorry, Aerys was a mistype on my part for Varys. This all assumes she trusted Varys, rather than just went with his plan because it worked with her aims and goals and possibilities at the time.

If she believes Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar, and if she trusts Varys, and if she doesn't assume he already knows and has a plan (probably even a Ned plan) for the backup (she trusts him, but not that much apparently, its a fine line...) and if she doesn't simply care more for Elia's child than Lyanna's and if she had a way to get a messsage back to Varys early on and if half a dozen other things, then yes, there's an argument she should have done something she appears not to.

Talk about a house of cards just for a minor argument against a theory.

Plus with contacting Varys early on, you just said Varys contacted her some time after the sack to go to Aegon. You are saying Varys just sent a letter to her and she went along willingly? I doubt that. There would have to have been more communication than that.

There's a rebellion of for a year or so. Suddenly there's a climactic battle, immediately followed by a great treachery and the murder of all the royal family.

One secretly loyal retainer smuggles out the heir, without anyone knowing.

In Ashara's place, with her connections to baby Aegon,family history and personal situation, a simple letter from Varys saying he secretly smuggled Aegon out, the dead baby was Aegon's royal double (see Myrcella, the practice is not unknown) and the babe is on a vessel standing now offshore, awaiting a loyal carer to raise him in secret in exile to later return and claim his birthright...

Yes, a single one-way only communication ought to be plenty. Its not like she has anything else to do, or live for.

See above, Tyrion wasn't staring at her chest the whole time. She was clothed most of the time, and he spent time close to her. He would have noticed. That is not GRRM building an excuse unless you have an SSM saying otherwise.

Sure. The scene was written that way randomly, and GRRM just forgot to include Lemores eyes because, and he wrote Tyrion's express disinterest in the secrets he believes she has due to his interest in her body just for kicks.

Such a convincing argument you make. :cool4:

[Ygrain]

I hope you do realize this was a joke :-)

It's just that the Ashara arguments always run in circles and until a new tidbit of information is revealed, neither side can win or convince the other. - But, sadly, you are right that there is not much to do on the forums these days.

[hiemal]

Sounds plausible to me. More so than the Ashara Dayne theories I've read and more satisfying,

[corbon]

I hope you do realize this was a joke :-)

It's just that the Ashara arguments always run in circles and until a new tidbit of information is revealed, neither side can win or convince the other. - But, sadly, you are right that there is not much to do on the forums these days.

Yep, which is why you got the winking sunglasses. B)

But also there is an element of truth in it, as there is with most good jokes, so I felt you deserved the explanation.

Roll on WoW.

I expect there'll be a lot of interest when the companion book comes out too. I'm a bit nervous about unreliable narrators in that one though, as it seems like much of it will have been written by characters, as opposed to GRRM 'directly'. Can't judge until it comes out though.

[MyLittleFinger]

Septa Lemore is

Septa Lemore?

[Fire Eater]

Lemore served in the GC given her comments revealing that she knew Myles Toyne.

Not at the time when he gave us the description of Lemore. He'd been avoiding her mostly because he was still stinky but didn't want to bath the way the others did because of both the giant snapping turtles and he didn't want her to see him naked.

He would have seen the eyes. I doubt Tyrion would have missed a pair of violet eyes given he had likely never seen such eyes up close before.

But really, these are semantics. The point is that at the time when Tyrion gives us his semi-description of Lemore, she is at that exact moment naked, and he's spent the night masturbating over her. And he's watching the water trickle dowm between her breasts as she puts her septa crystal back on.
Its not really relevant whether he's noticed her eyes before that or not (in point of fact he's already assessed that she has her secrets, like all the others but he's too consumed by her body to care about her secrets), but that right then, as he gives us her description, his focus is not on her eyes, but elsewhere. GRRM chose to do that. It does give him an 'out', whether one considers it a good 'out' or not, for not revealing Lemore's eye colour to us yet.

Simply wrong. Lemore has dark brown hair.

It is relevant, as I doubt he would have missed a pair of violet eyes, especially since many men have mentioned that as Ashara's most striking feature, "haunting" they were described as. You think Tyrion wouldn't have noticed throughout the entire voyage spent in close quarters?

My mistake.

Funny though, that she does have golden skin. A more dornish colour than most Andals or First Men exhibit...

Which is why the probably.
Although... this is what we know:
She was an unwed maiden at court.
She apparently had a baby.
There's no word of a marriage.
Selmy believes a man "dishonoured" her at Harrenhal.
She 'looked to' a Stark for help, must have needed help over something.
Later, there's no mention of her at court, and she is found at home.

Gven the morality espoused by both the dominant religion and culture at court, and the historical analogous cultures, its extremely likely that a Crown Princess' Handmaid who got pregnant out of wedlock would be sent home in disgrace. Which fits all the facts we know.

Dornishmen aren't described as having golden skin, but olive skin.

She may have been sent home by her lordly brother at the onset of the war. It is possible she went home when she learned she was pregnant, or simply that she left for home after the tourney of Harrenhal.

Yeah, I was deeply involved when it was coined. Its use has drifted now, but I favour the original use. What you describe above would be Faegon, indicating a firm belief in fakeness (and a lack of objectivity in assessment, given the data we have). fAegon indicates could be true, could be fake. Aegon (for Young Griff) would be used if trueness is asserted (and equal lack in objectivity in assessment being implied).

Once again assuming all sorts of things which we don't know and are not required by the data we do know.
Even if all your assumptions are met (and they might be, I'm not claiming that they can't be) one of the hallmarks of a successful conspiracy (and this one has been going for nearly 20 years without being exposed) is compartmentalisation. Ashara's job is fAegon, Jon is not her concern. And with fAegon being 'senior' to Jon in any circumstance, she doesn't need to fret about the backup.

He is fake as a real Aegon would be sloppy writing, and Dany wouldn't have a legitimate reason to start the second Dance.

Didn't need to fret? What if Aegon died from illness which took a significant portion of the child population in medieval times, or he was killed in battle, another possibility gvien Aegon would be fighting to regain the throne. I doubt she wouldn't have been concerned about Rhaegar's other son. Two heirs are better than one, and Jon would be second in line to the IT, Aegon's heir.

If she was involved in supporting ToJ (lets assume she was, I think its the best theory at the moment, and it is required for all your assumptions), all she needs to know is that Lyanna is there, on Rhaegar's orders. Thats the sum total of her required knowledge.
Pregnancy? Probably, but not necessarily.
Marriage? Probably but not necessarily.
Wet nurse? Probably, but not necessarily.
Wylla in person? Maybe, but not necessarily.
Where Wylla was 9+ months ago? Unlikely, not even remotely necessary.

Take any one or more of those details out of the picture and she doesn't know Jon's true heritage and can accept Ned's word/plan (especially since she's in no position to change Ned's plan/mind/actions and got a much more important project of her own to deal with).
Jon might be Rhaegar's bastard to her (a mildy interesting but not actually important detail), or Ned's bastard (then she has no reason to care) or even Rhaegar's trueborn second son but-she-has-a-job-to-do-on-the-heir-and-the-spare-is-not-her-problem.

Wylla was a servant at Starfall, Ashara would know her. It wouldn't take a lot to deduce where the baby came from. Arthur would have sent info back to Starfall if they had any needs, such as possibly a midwife if Lyanna was pregnant. Ned would have little reason to lie to her given her family were Targaryen loyalists, supplied the ToJ and her brother was the oldest friend of Jon's father.

Remember also that fAegon is the child of her friend, and probably a similar age to the child she lost, Jon is not.

Yes. May have. Or may have been keeping it a secret, we don't know. There are many different possibilities and permutations, but you seem to be insisting on only the ones that argue against Ashara=Lemore. The truth is that many possibilities remain open.

Sorry, Aerys was a mistype on my part for Varys. This all assumes she trusted Varys, rather than just went with his plan because it worked with her aims and goals and possibilities at the time.
If she believes Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar, and if she trusts Varys, and if she doesn't assume he already knows and has a plan (probably even a Ned plan) for the backup (she trusts him, but not that much apparently, its a fine line...) and if she doesn't simply care more for Elia's child than Lyanna's and if she had a way to get a messsage back to Varys early on and if half a dozen other things, then yes, there's an argument she should have done something she appears not to.
Talk about a house of cards just for a minor argument against a theory.

Jon is an heir to the IT, and Ashara knew his father. It isn't stated when she gave birth. Barristan believes she killed herself after she lost her child so the birth could have been sometime around Jon's making him closer than Aegon.

I doubt Arthur would feel the need to keep Lyanna's pregnancy a secret from his sister and the rest of his family.

There was no way Varys could have known about Jon. If she thought Varys was protecting Aegon, and smuggled him out of KL, then she would be inclined to tell him about Jon, thinking he is helping the Targaryens. It is a very poor political choice to ignore the other heir to the IT.

As for house of cars, to be fair, it is compared to Varys sending for Ashara, Ashara believing everything just by a single message sent by a man with a dubious reputation, selected her after losing a child shortly before Ned arrived at the ToJ, and went with Varys's plan to pose as a septa.

And if Lemore is Ashara, she's highborn, which means she is almost certain to have a more refined natural accent. So not necessarily a 'common' dornish drawl.
"Doran!" called some highborn voice. "To the spears!"

You can tell a highborn dornish voice from a common one apparently just from the accent, not any particular words. Unless "Doran! To the Spears!" is some obviously lowborn way of phrasing things.

That refined accent would probably have been further refined by her time at court in KL.
Further, she's been away from Dorne for nearly 20 years, playing a role as someone else. To insist that she'd have an identifiable dornish accent as Lemore is... not a very clever argument

Except Sarella is recognized as having a Dornish drawl, and she was raised by the Martells. Many highborn Dornishmen stayed with Tyrion at the RK in ASoS as well. He would have recognized a Dornish drawl, even from someone highborn. Not many people speak the Common Tongue along the Rhoyne except the the people on the boat.

"Not a very clever argument" can be taken to be a bit insulting,. No need for condescension.

There's a rebellion of for a year or so. Suddenly there's a climactic battle, immediately followed by a great treachery and the murder of all the royal family.
One secretly loyal retainer smuggles out the heir, without anyone knowing.

In Ashara's place, with her connections to baby Aegon,family history and personal situation, a simple letter from Varys saying he secretly smuggled Aegon out, the dead baby was Aegon's royal double (see Myrcella, the practice is not unknown) and the babe is on a vessel standing now offshore, awaiting a loyal carer to raise him in secret in exile to later return and claim his birthright...
Yes, a single one-way only communication ought to be plenty. Its not like she has anything else to do, or live for.

I sincerely doubt that a single letter was all it took given the specific details that would appear hard to believe, and Aegon was already in Essos not on a ship in Westeros, he had never been to Westeros up until ADwD. Aegon wasn't sent to stay with Lemore and Connington until he was at least 5-6 given since, as is mentioned, Connington rode with the GC for five years before staying with Aegon. Lemore knew Myles Toyne, so she was in the GC as well, and she wouldn't be going to Aeogn immediately but staying with the GC for five years then going to him. I doubt she would have gone along with that plan.

Sure. The scene was written that way randomly, and GRRM just forgot to include Lemores eyes because, and he wrote Tyrion's express disinterest in the secrets he believes she has due to his interest in her body just for kicks.
Such a convincing argument you make. :cool4:

Sarcasm? Again, being condescending doesn't prove you're right just that you're being arrogant and disrespectful. Tyrion would have noticed the eyes, they were in constant contact, and Ashara's eyes were described as "haunting." If they were that noticeable than Tyrion would have noticed.

[Urien the Ragged]

her connection with the Toynes is interesting, i had never thought of it before.

her referring to Myles Toyne as "YOUR friend" to Griff doesn't mean that she didn't know him, it could just mean she didn't like him, or, as Blackheart was prone to do, he put up a facade of cruelty that she never breached.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Lemore served in the GC given her comments revealing that she knew Myles Toyne.

They all did. Duck was a squire sent by Strickland and Franklyn Flowers also greeted Haldon as an old friend.

Still, it's kinda odd having a septa serving in the GC, unless she had protection 24/7

[Fire Eater]

They all did. Duck was a squire sent by Strickland and Franklyn Flowers also greeted Haldon as an old friend.

Still, it's kinda odd having a septa serving in the GC, unless she had protection 24/7

The GC is well-known for its discipline, and I think she would have been safe enough given the penalties the perpetrators would recieve.