Wenda the White Fawn, Septa Lemore and the Toynes

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That is great!

You know that you can’t go wrong when two of the best posters in these forums (Fire Eater&Ygrain) collaborate. Even if I believe that Lemore is just Lemore, or my fav alternative Mellario, this makes way more sense that the fanfiction that Lemore is Ashara. Once more it is great!

No one cares for Mellario of Norvos

And why schould she live with Aegon?

The way I see it there are many reasons: Love, loyalty, because he is family, even if he is in law, and my personal fav for revenge. Lemore of Norvos still has more motives that the Ashara-Lemore fanfiction where a glorified servant would sacrifice her life for a no one.

[Mithras]

Dany was never the original consort for fAegon. I think Team fAegon always wanted Arianne. And Mellario taking care of the young prince who will marry her precious daughter makes sense.

[Old Man Aegon]

But Arianne was to wed Viserys. Then we have the fact that when her son was sent to the Yronwoods she left her country, and we find that she just sits all calm and nice with her husbands sisters son? She left her remaining children to see her husbands sisters son and told her husband nothing about that?

She wants vengeance? For her husbands pain? for her own love for Elia? We have no evidence of either. Sorry but Mellario is more unlikely then Wenda.

I dont really agree with any Lemore=X theorys but Wenda would be insteresting, although unlikely. Personally I believe that Lemore is someone unimportant that we might have heard about, or maybe not. Could be Wenda, could be Roberts 231st whore.

[Alia of the knife]

:D

To develop a little on the Robin - Marion parallel: except the obvious, Marion being a lady, I wonder whether Wenda had been a septa before she joined the Brotherhood or became one only afterwards. If she had been one, then she is a cross between Lady Marion and Friar Tuck :D

Any ideas how Wenda survived and escaped punishment? I wonder whether Arthur Dayne might have taken pity on her (especially if she was pregnant) and sent her to septas instead of delivering her to Aerys' justice, knowing all too well what Aerys might do. There is a SSM asking how Dayne dealt with Aerys' atrocities and the answer was keep reading, so he may have taken some leeway with his vows whenever it was possible.

That is a good question. If Rhaegar was of the same merciful disposition, I'd bet his good friend Arthur was of like mind.

(I like this theory BTW even though I think Lemore is Serra). :)

[Mithras]

But Arianne was to wed Viserys. Then we have the fact that when her son was sent to the Yronwoods she left her country, and we find that she just sits all calm and nice with her husbands sisters son? She left her remaining children to see her husbands sisters son and told her husband nothing about that?

She wants vengeance? For her husbands pain? for her own love for Elia? We have no evidence of either. Sorry but Mellario is more unlikely then Wenda.

I dont really agree with any Lemore=X theorys but Wenda would be insteresting, although unlikely. Personally I believe that Lemore is someone unimportant that we might have heard about, or maybe not. Could be Wenda, could be Roberts 231st whore.

It is absolutely meaningless if Lemore is disguised as somebody else and at the same time she is somebody we did not see/hear so far. This does not work in literature.

Since Mellario is very protective and fond of her children, I think she might be involved in a big conspiracy to make her daughter the queen and Dorne would gain a heavy influence in the court again.

[Ygrain]

That is a good question. If Rhaegar was of the same merciful disposition, I'd bet his good friend Arthur was of like mind.

(I like this theory BTW even though I think Lemore is Serra). :)

I used to favour the Serra theory, as well, until I realized that Serra was blonde and would have to either shave or dye her private parts because Lemore has dark hair.

[Alia of the knife]

I used to favour the Serra theory, as well, until I realized that Serra was blonde and would have to either shave or dye her private parts because Lemore has dark hair.

LMAO, you are a goddess of detail. :)

Now if she is Serra who was from a pillow house, she may very well have partaken of the (ahem) various beauty enhancements as I believe that some women in the book are mentioned to be thus.

However, I like this parallel to the beloved classic as well. :)

[FittleLinger]

It's a possibility. I still think that Lemore used to be highborn because of the "lady Lemore" reference by someone in their crew. You could argue that the White Fawn was highborn, but even if she was, she isn't associated with a lady. I am of the opinion that the "lady" comment was a clue, and if it refers to someone who was not highborn or not associated with such a status, it becomes meaningless IMO.

Also, Lemore is a rather strange name. I think the name itself possibly contains a clue. So for now, I am of the opinion that she is Melario. I am not a very passionate supporter of any theory on her identity, mind you, and I think that yes, the White Fawn is not a ridiculous proposition :)

[Ygrain]

LMAO, you are a goddess of detail. :)

Now if she is Serra who was from a pillow house, she may very well have partaken of the (ahem) various beauty enhancements as I believe that some women in the book are mentioned to be thus.

However, I like this parallel to the beloved classic as well. :)

I must admit that the observation stemmed from Cersei's comment during the torture of the Blue Bard about his pubic hair not being blue. And, if Lemore was shaven, I doubt that Tyrion would have failed to make that observation. And, as someone pointed out, Lemore takes a bath every day, the hair dye would probably wash out.

[Fire Eater]

I like the Robin Hood and Lady Marion reference, given that would be a subversion of that trope. Robin Hood was an aristocrat in some stories who was wrongfully dispossessed of his lands and made into an outlaw. Aegon IV wouldn't have forgotten the Toynes' assassination attempt, and likely could have stripped them of their lands. Also, come to think of it, Robin Hood and Marion met at the May Games festivities. Wenda and Simon Toyne could have met at the tourney at SE where he was the mystery knight unhorsed by Rhaegar. If her father was Lord Cafferen, he may have brought her there since the tourney was being held by their liege lord, and she may have wanted to see it like other highborn girls her age.

"Pleading the belly" in English common law as early as 1387, permitted women in the late stages of pregnancy to receive a reprieve from their death sentences until delivery. If Wenda was pregnant at the time of the brotherhood's fall, she could have been spared the noose, and used that time to escape.

I don't deny the possibility. It is certain that Lemore is not Lemore. It makes sense if a surviving outlaw finds a place among the GC due to the Toynes.

But if Lemore is Mellario of Norvos, it makes an enormous impact to the story unlike Wenda.

Except Doran would have known about Aegon if his wife was Lemore, and wouldn't have sent Quentyn on a mission to marry Dany as he thought Aegon would take care of that. Lemore if she were Mellario, would have borne a resemblance to Arianne as Hotah knew. Lemore is Westerosi while Mellario is from Norvos, and we might have heard an accent in her speech.

Dany was never the original consort for fAegon. I think Team fAegon always wanted Arianne. And Mellario taking care of the young prince who will marry her precious daughter makes sense.

I don't think Arianne was the original planned consort as she at least five years older than Aegon.

[Ygrain]

I like the Robin Hood and Lady Marion reference, given that would be a subversion of that trope. Robin Hood was an aristocrat in some stories who was wrongfully dispossessed of his lands and made into an outlaw. Aegon IV wouldn't have forgotten the Toynes' assassination attempt, and likely could have stripped them of their lands. Also, come to think of it, Robin Hood and Marion met at the May Games festivities. Wenda and Simon Toyne could have met at the tourney at SE where he was the mystery knight unhorsed by Rhaegar. If her father was Lord Cafferen, he may have brought her there since the tourney was being held by their liege lord, and she may have wanted to see it like other highborn girls her age.

"Pleading the belly" in English common law as early as 1387, permitted women in the late stages of pregnancy to receive a reprieve from their death sentences until delivery. If Wenda was pregnant at the time of the brotherhood's fall, she could have been spared the noose, and used that time to escape.

I think the information that the Brotherhood was extremely popular with the smallfolk who saw them as the defenders of their rights is a nod to the Robin legend. And, IIRC, Robin participated incognito in an archery competition, so there's another similarity.

[Frey family reunion]

Wenda might also be a reference to the Scarlet Pimpernel story, as both left a calling call behind. Of course the Scarlet Pimpernel was helping aristocrats escape from the guillotine, as opposed to helping the commoners.

While I still prefer Lemore as Mellario, this theory is making me second guess it.

I think we'll find that the White Fawn may be from a line of aristocrat women (in a maternal line) being trained in Oldtown. In Arya's chapter Lady Smallwood (originally a Swann) tells Arya that she is sending her daughter to Oldtown to stay with her great Aunt who is a septa. We know that when the Kingsguard finally ended the Kingswood Brotherhood they "rescued" a Lady Swann and her Septa. My guess is the septa may have been the White Fawn and Lady Swann was in cahoots with the Kingswood Brotherhood much like her daughter? neice? Lady Smallwood is a patron of the Brotherhood without Banners.

The fact that a half-master is with Lemore might show an Oldtown connection, and perhaps Lemore has also been trained by this Great Aunt of Lady Smallwood.

BTW, any takers that Creighton Longbough is Big Belly Ben?

[Maia]

A really interesting idea! So, if Lemora/Wenda came from Myles Toyne, would she have known about the Blackfyre angle? Given that she had no reason to harbor any love for Targaryens... Also, wouldn't she have grabbed some weapons, when they were in danger from the Stone Men?

I like the idea of Arthur Dayne shielding her from Aerys's wrath, it seems in character and for a prominent outlaw, there is a curious silence about her eventual fate. In fact, Ulmer being in the Night's Watch suggests to me that other Brotherhood captives haven't been judged by Aerys either. Maybe Dayne was able to sentence them himself, somehow, or brought them to some local lord for judgement and urged mercy?

I like the Cafferen angle too, except it would have been somewhat difficult to keep it a secret. Not if she was a lord's daughter, at least. But a niece/cousin might have managed to fly under the radar...

[The guy from the Vale]

I like this. Lemore being Wenda would cast additional doubt on fAegon's identity without being as heavy-handed as Serra would be. At the same time, Mellario or Ashara make little sense to me in this role.

I admit I haven't made up my mind on Lemore's identity yet, and I can see several interpretations for the mystery of her identity. But this one is, for now, my favorite.

[Amoracchius]

Dany was never the original consort for fAegon. I think Team fAegon always wanted Arianne. And Mellario taking care of the young prince who will marry her precious daughter makes sense.

I'm confused. If the plan was to marry Arianne to fAegon, why did Doran (1) arrange the betrothal of Arianne to Viserys; and (2) send Quentyn on a wild goose chase to win Dany's hand? Are you suggesting that Doran and his estranged wife are working against each other? Or are they just unaware of each others plans for their kids?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I kinda feel that Lemore being Mellario doesn't fit due to the timeline. I'll have to re-read that part.

If she was recognized as a former outlaw, it might cast further doubt at Aegon's identity.

And yes, there would probably be the GC connection, and I really wonder why we get a Toyne in Brotherhood and another in GC.

She wouldn't the only one. All of Aegon's people didn't exactly leave Westeros in the best of circumstances.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I kinda feel that Lemore being Mellario doesn't fit due to the timeline. I'll have to re-read that part.

The time line isn't clear. Since Aegon is 18, or he would be if he was alive, and Jon went to him when he was 5-6 in ~286-7. We know that Mellario left Dorne after Trystane's birth which is also in 287. Now we don't know when Lemore went to FAegon but Mellario could fit the timeline.

Also for me Mellario's actions make no sense and that is why I believe that there is something fishy. As I have said before her decision to abandon her children when and because Doran send Quentyn to Yronwood don’t make sense at all. That is why I believe that she had another plan.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The time line isn't clear. Since Aegon is 18, or he would be if he was alive, and Jon went to him when he was 5-6 in ~286-7. We know that Mellario left Dorne after Trystane's birth which is also in 287. Now we don't know when Lemore went to FAegon but Mellario could fit the timeline.

Also for me Mellario's actions make no sense and that is why I believe that there is something fishy. As I have said before her decision to abandon her children when and because Doran send Quentyn to Yronwood don’t make sense at all. That is why I believe that she had another plan.

hey! don't bold-and-underline-me!

I think there is something odd there too. I'll re-read and see what I can find.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

hey! don't bold-and-underline-me!

I think there is something odd there too. I'll re-read and see what I can find.

Sorry it wasn't intentional I couldn't change it :uhoh:

[Fire Eater]

A really interesting idea! So, if Lemora/Wenda came from Myles Toyne, would she have known about the Blackfyre angle?

I don't know, the fewer people know about Aegon's real identity the better. I think she was left in the dark like everyone else on the poleboat.