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Wenda the White Fawn, Septa Lemore and the Toynes


Ygrain

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I don't deny the possibility. It is certain that Lemore is not Lemore. It makes sense if a surviving outlaw finds a place among the GC due to the Toynes.

But if Lemore is Mellario of Norvos, it makes an enormous impact to the story unlike Wenda.

Or the Mad Maid...

I agree that the Kingswood Brotherhood stuff was in there for a reason, but explaining Jaime's early exploits at a young age would be sufficient to require it, no? Once it's in there The George was able to develop it and a few other characters based on it.

Do I get credit for not mentioning Ashara?

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Or the Mad Maid...

I agree that the Kingswood Brotherhood stuff was in there for a reason, but explaining Jaime's early exploits at a young age would be sufficient to require it, no? Once it's in there The George was able to develop it and a few other characters based on it.

Do I get credit for not mentioning Ashara?

You already did. Now you have to put one golden dragon in the "Ashara mentions" jar.
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Except Doran would have known about Aegon if his wife was Lemore, and wouldn't have sent Quentyn on a mission to marry Dany as he thought Aegon would take care of that. Lemore is she were Mellario, would have borne a resemblance to Arianne as Hotah knew. Lemore is Westerosi while Mellario is from Norvos, and we might have heard an accent in her speech.

Chataya: A handsome woman, Tyrion reflected as he watched her go. He had seldom seen such elegance and dignity in a whore. Though to be sure, she saw herself more as a kind of priestess. Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it. Somehow that thought comforted him.

Sybell Spicer: Between them were a handsome older lady and a pretty maid who looked to be her daughter.

Alerie Hightower: Her mother Lady Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell.

Lady Hewett: There were eight of them: her ladyship herself, still handsome though grown somewhat stout, and seven younger women aged from twenty-five to ten, her daughters and good-daughters.

Mariya Darry: Though Lady Mariya’s hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman.

Catelyn Stark: Her face, Brienne thought. Her face was so strong and handsome, her skin so smooth and soft.

Lady Lemore: whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

Lady Lemore: When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye.

Wynafryd Manderly: “Words are wind,” said the young woman behind Lord Wyman’s high seat, the handsome one with the long brown braid.

Barbrey Ryswell: Though there were wrinkles at the corners of her mouth and more around her eyes, she still stood tall, unbent, and handsome.

These are the women described as handsome. The red ones are from Tyrion POVs. Apart from Wynafryd Manderly, all of them are older women with adult children (or would be).

Yandry and Ysilla are two Greenblood born Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne. Their presence should be somehow important and related to Dorne. the orphans are the most gossiping society and surely two of them in such a secret company must be odd.

“A wicked dream, no doubt. You are a wicked man. Will you pray with me and ask forgiveness for your sins?”

Only if we pray in the fashion of the Summer Isles. “No, but do give the Maiden a long, sweet kiss for me.”

Laughing, the septa walked to the prow of the boat. It was her custom to bathe in the river every morning. “Plainly, this boat was not named for you,” Tyrion called as she disrobed.

“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods.”

There is also a strange similarity between Lemore and Chataya (or more generally Summer Islanders). They are not shy of nudity. This is very atypical for a Septa.

I don't think Arianne was the original planned consort as she at least five years older than Aegon.

Elia was two years older than Rhaegar. I don't think 5 years matter much.

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Chataya: A handsome woman, Tyrion reflected as he watched her go. He had seldom seen such elegance and dignity in a whore. Though to be sure, she saw herself more as a kind of priestess. Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it. Somehow that thought comforted him.

Sybell Spicer: Between them were a handsome older lady and a pretty maid who looked to be her daughter.

Alerie Hightower: Her mother Lady Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell.

Lady Hewett: There were eight of them: her ladyship herself, still handsome though grown somewhat stout, and seven younger women aged from twenty-five to ten, her daughters and good-daughters.

Mariya Darry: Though Lady Mariyas hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman.

Catelyn Stark: Her face, Brienne thought. Her face was so strong and handsome, her skin so smooth and soft.

Lady Lemore: whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

Lady Lemore: When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye.

Wynafryd Manderly: Words are wind, said the young woman behind Lord Wymans high seat, the handsome one with the long brown braid.

Barbrey Ryswell: Though there were wrinkles at the corners of her mouth and more around her eyes, she still stood tall, unbent, and handsome.

These are the women described as handsome. The red ones are from Tyrion POVs. Apart from Wynafryd Manderly, all of them are older women with adult children (or would be).

Yandry and Ysilla are two Greenblood born Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne. Their presence should be somehow important and related to Dorne. the orphans are the most gossiping society and surely two of them in such a secret company must be odd.

A wicked dream, no doubt. You are a wicked man. Will you pray with me and ask forgiveness for your sins?

Only if we pray in the fashion of the Summer Isles. No, but do give the Maiden a long, sweet kiss for me.

Laughing, the septa walked to the prow of the boat. It was her custom to bathe in the river every morning. Plainly, this boat was not named for you, Tyrion called as she disrobed.

The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods.

There is also a strange similarity between Lemore and Chataya (or more generally Summer Islanders). They are not shy of nudity. This is very atypical for a Septa.

Elia was two years older than Rhaegar. I don't think 5 years matter much.

Hmmm... Tyrion thinks three women are handsome: Lemore, Chataya, and the Mad Maid's younger sister...
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Assuming Lemore is someone we've seen, Wenda the White Fawn is definitely a possible candidate. The age works and it would give her a backstory where she'd need to hide her identity. The Toyne connection between Myles and the Smiling knight of the Kingswood Brotherhood isn't proof but provides some fertile soil. The Halfmaester and Duck both seem to have been provided by Toyne and Connington came from the GC as well with Toyne's knowledge. The two Dornish orphans seem to be exactly what they claim and finding two such orphans wanting to return to Mother Rhoyne doesn't strike me as an especially difficult feat to pull off. That leaves Lemore and having her come from a Myles Toyne GC connection as well makes a certain amount of sense.



JC refers to her as Lady Lemore in his thoughts so that implies she is of noble birth. Lemore may even be her real first name. The one piece of information we know about Lemore is that she has stretch marks from childbirth. Wenda the White Fawn had the odd signature practice of branding a White Fawn into her male highborn captives. The inclusion of "highborn" seems to imply that she didn't do this to her male lowborn captives. Perhaps she never had any but it strikes me that some servants must have been captured along with their noble bosses so I think we can infer that she only branded highborn men.



Trying to put these details together into a narrative I would read this as a young noble girl already in love being betrothed to another for the typical political reasons marriages in Westeros happen. Perhaps she gets pregnant like the tale of young Lysa and her father sends her of to the Faith as a means to make amends for the perceived offense of her infidelity. She either flees or is actually captured by the Kingswood Brotherhood on her way to the nunnery and a Simon Toyne whose own House was brought down by a similar tale of infidelity take pity on her and she joins the Brotherhood where she begins to brand highborn men like cattle in reaction to her being sold into marriage like cattle.



That narrative connects the details we know into a coherent backstory, but it still isn't proof of anything (and lacks an explanation for the fate of the baby.) It includes Fire Eater's white=septa notion, but still requires an explanation for the Fawn. I think any House with a deer or stag as its sigil could easily explain the Fawn nickname and if we could identify that House within some historical context that can hold this narrative (or some variation that covers the bases) it might start to give rise to a more solid theory.



Houses Buckwell of the Antlers, Harte, Hunt, Bolling, and Caffern of Fawnton are the possibilities I could find (and obviously Baratheon but there's a distinct lack of daughters there.) House Piper of Pinkmaiden might also have potential as a source of the "white" nickname. The fawn nickname might also derive from her betrothed or her lover. If these details can be worked into some historical incident we know of that would help tremendously in changing this from a guess to a theory. (Though I'm personally satisfied with Lemore as the White Fawn as an educated guess.)



I do like the tournament angle mentioned upthread as it creates a bit of a Lyanna/Rhaegar parallel. Still, in order to create a good theory out of this I think the pregnant Lemore and the branding Wenda have to meet with some plausible backstory.


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Don't see why he would mention the pregnancy stretch marks and not connect it with whoever the real Lemore is...makes no sense in that that is a huge clue, and additionally there doesn't seem to be an appearance match except that they were attractive (which could mean any number of people)...


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Assuming Lemore is someone we've seen, Wenda the White Fawn is definitely a possible candidate. The age works and it would give her a backstory where she'd need to hide her identity. The Toyne connection between Myles and the Smiling knight of the Kingswood Brotherhood isn't proof but provides some fertile soil.

Not the Smiling Knight, Simon Toyne.

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Assuming Lemore is someone we've seen, Wenda the White Fawn is definitely a possible candidate. The age works and it would give her a backstory where she'd need to hide her identity. The Toyne connection between Myles and the Smiling knight of the Kingswood Brotherhood isn't proof but provides some fertile soil. The Halfmaester and Duck both seem to have been provided by Toyne and Connington came from the GC as well with Toyne's knowledge. The two Dornish orphans seem to be exactly what they claim and finding two such orphans wanting to return to Mother Rhoyne doesn't strike me as an especially difficult feat to pull off. That leaves Lemore and having her come from a Myles Toyne GC connection as well makes a certain amount of sense.

JC refers to her as Lady Lemore in his thoughts so that implies she is of noble birth. Lemore may even be her real first name. The one piece of information we know about Lemore is that she has stretch marks from childbirth. Wenda the White Fawn had the odd signature practice of branding a White Fawn into her male highborn captives. The inclusion of "highborn" seems to imply that she didn't do this to her male lowborn captives. Perhaps she never had any but it strikes me that some servants must have been captured along with their noble bosses so I think we can infer that she only branded highborn men.

Trying to put these details together into a narrative I would read this as a young noble girl already in love being betrothed to another for the typical political reasons marriages in Westeros happen. Perhaps she gets pregnant like the tale of young Lysa and her father sends her of to the Faith as a means to make amends for the perceived offense of her infidelity. She either flees or is actually captured by the Kingswood Brotherhood on her way to the nunnery and a Simon Toyne whose own House was brought down by a similar tale of infidelity take pity on her and she joins the Brotherhood where she begins to brand highborn men like cattle in reaction to her being sold into marriage like cattle.

That narrative connects the details we know into a coherent backstory, but it still isn't proof of anything (and lacks an explanation for the fate of the baby.) It includes Fire Eater's white=septa notion, but still requires an explanation for the Fawn. I think any House with a deer or stag as its sigil could easily explain the Fawn nickname and if we could identify that House within some historical context that can hold this narrative (or some variation that covers the bases) it might start to give rise to a more solid theory.

Houses Buckwell of the Antlers, Harte, Hunt, Bolling, and Caffern of Fawnton are the possibilities I could find (and obviously Baratheon but there's a distinct lack of daughters there.) House Piper of Pinkmaiden might also have potential as a source of the "white" nickname. The fawn nickname might also derive from her betrothed or her lover. If these details can be worked into some historical incident we know of that would help tremendously in changing this from a guess to a theory. (Though I'm personally satisfied with Lemore as the White Fawn as an educated guess.)

I do like the tournament angle mentioned upthread as it creates a bit of a Lyanna/Rhaegar parallel. Still, in order to create a good theory out of this I think the pregnant Lemore and the branding Wenda have to meet with some plausible backstory.

Agree except for two things:

1. Being called "lady" doesn't necessarily means noble birth: Melisandre, Val and Korra the pirate have all been called "lady".

2. Duck was sent by Strickland, not Toyne.

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I think it's an idea worth considering. The fact that the Brotherhood does keep coming up and, through the Toynes, is connected to the Golden Company is pretty hard to simply write off, especially now that the Golden Company is linked to Aegon and historically (presently!) linked to the Blackfyre faction. I can also definitely see someone like Arthur letting Wenda go if she were pregnant or had a young child (and who/where is that child, if she had one?). In a similar vein with Richard Lonmouth, I think the ambiguity of Wenda's fate, compared with the Smiling Knight and Simon Toyne, is curious in and of itself. If Lemore is "in on it" at a different level than Connington (e.g. she knows that Aegon is not Aegon and perhaps, more specifically, that Aegon is a Blackfyre) then the question becomes, who is she and what sort of woman would be trusted with such a secret? If Wenda, through her connection to the Toynes, ended up with the Golden Company in Essos, then she's precisely the sort of plant that the GC/Varys/Illyrio could install around Aegon. And others have mentioned the white/septa connection already; it's possible that the White Fawn ended up such because she fled or was expelled from septa training.



It's true that the evidence is circumstantial at best and requires some serious dot-connecting, but I don't find it to be nearly as out of nowhere or as outrageous as other ideas I've seen that are given credence.


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Jaime remembers he was 15 when the KG defeated the Brotherhood, that's in 281 AC. The Rebelion happened in 283. If Wenda escaped to the GC, and was under their protection she was there until JC arrive: JC would have seen her or known she was there when he got there too, in 283 (or 284, who knows): a protegee of Toyne wouldn't be something someone would miss. Unless of course, she was send someone else to be safer. There are women in the GC? tbh, I can't remember.



Another thing is that, if Wenda lived with the brotherhood, I can see her bathing in front of them very often and not caring. Hence, her whole "oh, our bodies are sacred, there is nothing wrong with that" it's only a mocking she uses while pretending to be a sept but not really being one, because that's something a septa -she might believe- would say.

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"It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead."



Lemore says "your old friend" when speaking of Myles. This makes me think that they do not have a history together.


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"It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead."

Lemore says "your old friend" when speaking of Myles. This makes me think that they do not have a history together.

Ah. That is an important catch - unless, as AM said, Lemore knows more than JonCon does and he is unaware of her connection to GC.

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Solid theory. There isn't enough evidence for anything for me to jump all the way onto one bandwagon



One thing I'm wondering, why hide her identity in Essos? Is Wenda so wanted that she would be pursued on another continent when everyone else is distracted by war. Now that Tyrion is marked for death and friendless in Westeros, is it necessary to keep Wenda's identity from Tyrion? Especially once he figured out YG was Aegon?



It would be a big deal if Mellario was with Aegon or she who can't be spoken of in this thread was alive so it makes sense to keep their identities secret, but is Wenda that important? I'm not so sure.



That's the only thing really wrong with the theory. There are problems with the other theories too so I don't really know what to think.


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