The Mountain and the Viper Episode Guide

[protar]

But why would you want it to be exactly the same? I like that it tells the same story with a few slight differences to keep me on my toes so I can enjoy them both separately as well as companion pieces. I read an interview with Martin where he said that the Game of Thrones comic book was going to be almost exactly like the books, and to be honest I put the comic back on the rack when I picked it up, because if it's going to be exactly the same, why not just read the books again? Which I am currently doing, BTW.

Because they're different mediums. Experiencing something visually is not the same as experiencing it through words. And of course no matter how much effort one makes, you can never make a completely faithful adaptation of ASOIAF, so it wouldn't be exactly the same anyway.

But no, when I watch Game of Thrones I'm looking to experience the same story through a different medium. If I wanted a new story I'd watch or read a brand new story, not a half measure.

[Konradsmith]

A lot of the vocal posters on threads like this are very far from "generally positive" about the show, Ran. There are posters who never have a kind word to say about it and seem to hate it, despite continuing to watch. I think it is wrong to associate you with the harshest backlash against the show however. But such a backlash does exist and I would hope that trying to counteract some of it doesn't constitute making "bullshit excuses".

That said, as long as it sticks to threads like this and the nitpicking ones and doesn't seep into some of the speculation threads (which are the best GoT spec threads on the internet IMO) then I'm fine with it.

[Ran]

(I assume you're addressing me) I really try to limit myself to speculation threads about upcoming episodes/seasons, as I know I'll just get ridiculously frustrated with the negativity on ones debating the quality of the show. It is very easy to get drawn into an extended argument on here, though, especially when people are blatantly perpetrating aspects of what I outlined above and I know that they are, in fact, in the extreme minority. It helps to point stuff like that out sometimes.

I see people perpretating the exact opposite, belittling people for having pet peeves or particular topics they're interested in, suggesting they're overly dramatic, and otherwise denigrating their opinions. If there's something that's factually wrong, say so. If it's all a matter of opinion, I'd say that if you don't want to debate it, don't. That includes not taking vague swipes.

[Rashtibram]

I see people perpretating the exact opposite, belittling people for having pet peeves or particular topics they're interested in, suggesting they're overly dramatic, and otherwise denigrating their opinions. If there's something that's factually wrong, say so. If it's all a matter of opinion, I'd say that if you don't want to debate it, don't. That includes not taking vague swipes.

There's a distinction to be made between types of critics. I have absolutely no problem with people who criticize certain adaptational choices, it's all a matter of opinion and I actually agree with some popular criticisms here on the way they've handled certain characters or big moments (Tyrion and Sansa especially were undoubtedly weaker than their book counterparts in season three). I choose to ignore the source material when reviewing the show (as I get the most enjoyment out of it that way) but I get that this approach is not for everyone. I try to have intelligent debates about individual adaptation or continuity criticisms that I disagree with, but my "vague swipe" as you put it wasn't towards that; it was directed towards people who try to defend the opinion that the show is objectively terrible on grounds which are clearly biased by knowledge of the books (and there is a vocal sub-section of posters who do try to perpetrate this viewpoint). I don't think it's justified to attack me for trying to combat some of this.

That said, as long as it sticks to threads like this and the nitpicking ones and doesn't seep into some of the speculation threads (which are the best GoT spec threads on the internet IMO) then I'm fine with it.

True; it does sometimes seep onto the speculation threads, though, and that's when it's at its most dangerous (take some of the "Season 4 Trailer" threads which gradually devolved into massive arguments about the show's quality).

[Tolsimir]

I don't have a problem with the show changing things (except for Renly's peach), but atleast they should be consistent in their character changes. You can alter a character and it's fine, as long as you remember that he is not the same one as in the books and would not do the same things. Show Robb for example was quite different from the book one, but it did not matter since his actions were whithin his character.

But then we have Tywin, who goes from caring for lost girls to a person killing babies in a second. Or Sansa who was ''book Sansa'' for the most part of the show, but now suddenly she is a ''player''? The problem comes when the writers want the characters to do the same things they did in the books, when they should not do them with how they were behaving in the show. The writers should either start being more independent from the source material or more close to it, not how they feel at a moment.

I can see why the show is so popular, since something like it has never been done on TV before. I enjoy it aswell, but if I would have to think critically I would give it a 7/10 not a 9 or 10/10. And I think this is where most of these ''negative'' posters are coming from. They just love the books so much they want the show to be a 10/10 instead of a 7/10.

Calling their opinions overly dramatic nitpicking is insulting.

[King of the Road]

I don't have a problem with the show changing things (except for Renly's peach), but atleast they should be consistent in their character changes. You can alter a character and it's fine, as long as you remember that he is not the same one as in the books and would not do the same things. Show Robb for example was quite different from the book one, but it did not matter since his actions were whithin his character.

But then we have Tywin, who goes from caring for lost girls to a person killing babies in a second. Or Sansa who was ''book Sansa'' for the most part of the show, but now suddenly she is a ''player''? The problem comes when the writers want the characters to do the same things they did in the books, when they should not do them with how they were behaving in the show. The writers should either start being more independent from the source material or more close to it, not how they feel at a moment.

I can see why the show is so popular, since something like it has never been done on TV before. I enjoy it aswell, but if I would have to think critically I would give it a 7/10 not a 9 or 10/10. And I think this is where most of these ''negative'' posters are coming from. They just love the books so much they want the show to be a 10/10 instead of a 7/10.

Calling their opinions overly dramatic nitpicking is insulting.

Don't agree that the show is a 7/10, I'd say it's at least an 8, but your point about Renly's peach is spot on. Unthinkable that that was cut in my mind, a real slip up.

[Cyril]

I don't have a problem with the show changing things (except for Renly's peach), but atleast they should be consistent in their character changes. You can alter a character and it's fine, as long as you remember that he is not the same one as in the books and would not do the same things. Show Robb for example was quite different from the book one, but it did not matter since his actions were whithin his character.

But then we have Tywin, who goes from caring for lost girls to a person killing babies in a second. Or Sansa who was ''book Sansa'' for the most part of the show, but now suddenly she is a ''player''? The problem comes when the writers want the characters to do the same things they did in the books, when they should not do them with how they were behaving in the show. The writers should either start being more independent from the source material or more close to it, not how they feel at a moment.

I can see why the show is so popular, since something like it has never been done on TV before. I enjoy it aswell, but if I would have to think critically I would give it a 7/10 not a 9 or 10/10. And I think this is where most of these ''negative'' posters are coming from. They just love the books so much they want the show to be a 10/10 instead of a 7/10.

Calling their opinions overly dramatic nitpicking is insulting.

There are certainly many valid criticisms of the show, but denying that some posters nitpick just for the sake of nitpicking is just as "insulting."

Edit: I also notice you use the term writers. In this debate, I think another problem is that the series has multiple writers who may have different interpretations. I know Cogman is generally quite popular aroung here, and he's my favorite as well, for sticking closer to the source material. Others, usually those who don't read the books, find his episodes more boring.

[Ran]

Why is it insulting for you if someone disagrees that some other people are nitpicking "just for the sake of nitpicking"? What skin is it off your back? I'm not seeing what's actually an insult to you, personally, if someone disagrees with you on this point.

[Konradsmith]

Because we're secretly HBO sleeper agents.

In truth, it's more that some of the criticism strikes some of us as unfair. But as long the spec threads remain as Lady Waynwood put it "unadulterated", I'm fine to have this go on in "nitpicking with impunity" threads and the like.

(Not that the spec threads have been particularly fruitful today. At the moment they're basically anticipation threads, giddily awaiting these last two episodes which are sure to be a good bit of fun).

[CaptainTheo]

Re Sansa's story in episode #8, I assumed too that Littlefinger had prepped Sansa to give testimony in advance (as happened in the books) and that it would be revealed in the next scene. As it turned out the next scene revealed that he hadn't prepped at all. I'm very surprised because Littlefinger in the books is a master of the game and has everything planned and I didn't like it that this made him look foolish instead; he put his life in Sansa's hands and even though it worked, put himself under her power.

As for Sansa, it is debatable whether she did the right thing or she should have thrown Littlefinger under the bus. It is also debatable whether she was right to reveal her true identity or not. I'm not sure and it may depend upon how it all pans out. Certainly she deserves credit for putting on such a good acting job convincing the Lord's Declarant that her story was 100% true, thus getting Littlefinger off the hook. As for her drastic change of appearance in her final scene... who knows where this is going when she didn't make any further appearances this season? It is annoying having to wait another nine months. Sansa's new appearance seems very out of character. I'm ok with a change like that if it is based on material from the Winds of Winter, which I thought it would be, but apparently it isn't, as on another thread, a poster made the following points:

• George Martin is wondering what the writers are doing with Sansa's storyline, and isn't happy with what they are doing
  
• Elio and Linda have read a sample Sansa chapter from the Winds of Winter and stated that what happened in this episode is nothing to do with that chapter
  

My immediate reaction was just that Sansa was just disguising herself as 'Alayne', hence dyeing her hair, but on reflection I agree that her "disguise" is overly seductive and revealing. Alayne in the books dresses in plainer clothes, from memory, being ostensibly bastard-born. Also, it is odd that she does this long after she started posing as 'Alayne' and also after she revealed her true identity. It also seems to be unlikely that she is just wearing mourning clothes for Lysa; apart from the nature of the outfit, she ought to have been wearing them, in this case, before that scene.

[Beric175]

See I thought he had talked to her about what to say but that still left her a free choice to leave all that aside and tell them the truth anyway and I took it that when he asked sansa why she saved him it was because he wanted to know why she stuck with the plan. he would be surprised if he assumed that sansa would betray him because he's projecting, as that's what he'd do in any other situation and yet sansa decides to go with the storythey concocted and a way to diverge attention away from the fact that he already talked to her is to ask the lords whether or not he could be allowed to speak to her, hence why she looks at him: they already had discussed it. The only surprise is that she decided to stick with that plan when she had a diferent alternative at her disposal. There you go. This is an explanation that sticks purely to what is in the episode. i don't see how people could not bring up this possibility.

[Ran]

Because it's such an obvious reach and so obviously not what the writers intended.

They make it plain as day in the "Inside the Episode" that the intention was that Littlefinger's goose was cooked -- he had no plan -- and that's the only really reasonable way to read the acting in those two scenes from both actors. There was no plan, there was no prep, there was no throwing himself on Sansa's mercy -- he had no idea how to deal with the lords, and Sansa on her own decided the course of action she took.

[Crixus]

They make it plain as day in the "Inside the Episode" that the intention was that Littlefinger's goose was cooked -- he had no plan -- and that's the only really reasonable way to read the acting in those two scenes from both actors. There was no plan, there was no prep, there was no throwing himself on Sansa's mercy -- he had no idea how to deal with the lords, and Sansa on her own decided the course of action she took.

And that is just ludicrous to me. So LF offed Lysa without any sort of plan? That simply isn't the Petyr we know from the books, and this certainly isn't a minor change. It's pretty much a fundamental part of who he is. Throwing himself on Sansa's mercy and having it all work out is another example of needless simplification, IMO.

[boojam]

And that is just ludicrous to me. So LF offed Lysa without any sort of plan? That simply isn't the Petyr we know from the books, and this certainly isn't a minor change. It's pretty much a fundamental part of who he is. Throwing himself on Sansa's mercy and having it all work out is another example of needless simplification, IMO.

Even in the books my thought was there was no way , absolutely no way, LF could hide the fact that Alayne Stone was not Sansa Stark forever.

I guess he was figuring that KL would become a power vacuum , because as long as Lannisters were there and they found out Sansa was with LF he was toast.

In fact , I don't know how LF could keep up his ruse , no other House in the seven kingdoms would have supported his taking the IT.

In the books he seemed to want the North? If that , who would want it? It's a wreck and about to be wrecked further.

If Stannis takes Winterfell, the hell with that plan.

Seems the show accelerated his demise by having Sanasa telling who she is... that information is now in the hands of the Lords of the Vale* and it's only a matter of time before it's known all across Westeros.

LF would then be suspect of being behind regicide not matter how much they may have disliked Joffrey.

Not very good planning.

*(By the by the 'Lords of the Vale' seem to be as dumb as rocks. LF shows up with Sansa, where did he come from? had to be KL, right after the murder of Joffrey Baratheon and mysteriously Lysa dies. Put two and two together and it does not take a genius to figure out what is going on.)

[Beric175]

Then again people are constantly saying 'oh he's so subtle in the books' when clearly that's not the case. He makes rude sex jokes and every POV that looks at him immediately thinks that he's up to something shady so he's not really good at hiding his true nature so much as rendering himself indispensable to people because none of them know anything about finance. The LF of the show might not have thought up a backup plan but ironically this is where LF becomes more human to me because otherwise in the books he's just a Bond villain whose every scheme pays off at all times.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Re Sansa's story in episode #8, I assumed too that Littlefinger had prepped Sansa to give testimony in advance (as happened in the books) and that it would be revealed in the next scene. As it turned out the next scene revealed that he hadn't prepped at all. I'm very surprised because Littlefinger in the books is a master of the game and has everything planned and I didn't like it that this made him look foolish instead; he put his life in Sansa's hands and even though it worked, put himself under her power.

As for Sansa, it is debatable whether she did the right thing or she should have thrown Littlefinger under the bus. It is also debatable whether she was right to reveal her true identity or not. I'm not sure and it may depend upon how it all pans out. Certainly she deserves credit for putting on such a good acting job convincing the Lord's Declarant that her story was 100% true, thus getting Littlefinger off the hook. As for her drastic change of appearance in her final scene... who knows where this is going when she didn't make any further appearances this season? It is annoying having to wait another nine months. Sansa's new appearance seems very out of character. I'm ok with a change like that if it is based on material from the Winds of Winter, which I thought it would be, but apparently it isn't, as on another thread, a poster made the following points:

• George Martin is wondering what the writers are doing with Sansa's storyline, and isn't happy with what they are doing

Elio and Linda have read a sample Sansa chapter from the Winds of Winter and stated that what happened in this episode is nothing to do with that chapter

My immediate reaction was just that Sansa was just disguising herself as 'Alayne', hence dyeing her hair, but on reflection I agree that her "disguise" is overly seductive and revealing. Alayne in the books dresses in plainer clothes, from memory, being ostensibly bastard-born. Also, it is odd that she does this long after she started posing as 'Alayne' and also after she revealed her true identity. It also seems to be unlikely that she is just wearing mourning clothes for Lysa; apart from the nature of the outfit, she ought to have been wearing them, in this case, before that scene.

It's probably similar to what's going to happen with Tormund and Mances storyline, they are simply going to skip a fair few things (in Tormunds case skipping Val, going through the Wall via pact with Jon) and they'll just have all the Wildlings basically captives and Tormund south of the wall already as he is in the latter hald of ADWD

Sansas storyline in the show could be to do with pacing perhaps (short seasons). Or it could have to do with wanting to move Sansa out of a so-called "dumb female character stereotype" quite quickly (quicker than in the books) to prevent possible criticism. More likely I think they are over-emphasising the fact that she is supposed to be learning of Baelish and becoming a kind of protege, which is probably the point of the Malificent dress (visual representation). I can understand this because TV is different to books as long as they don't completely butcher Baelish

It could be a matter of following the general theme of the books but over-pronouncing certain themes (Littlefinger has some vulnerability where Sansa is concerned) so it is clear what's happening in the visual medium (subtleties are hard in a 10 episode per season show)

I am wondering if Sansa revealing herself has something to do with the Vale Lords joining her side militarily (at least more quickly than books), eg they may perhaps use them as something of a substitute for the Manderly's (who have a slight Southron feel) - and Lady Dustin - where the Manderly's have been discretely building up a military force in the books but there's no suggestion in the show so they may have to use the Vale military and navy instead

[Ghosts Lunch]

Even in the books my thought was there was no way , absolutely no way, LF could hide the fact that Alayne Stone was not Sansa Stark forever.

I guess he was figuring that KL would become a power vacuum , because as long as Lannisters were there and they found out Sansa was with LF he was toast.

In fact , I don't know how LF could keep up his ruse , no other House in the seven kingdoms would have supported his taking the IT.

In the books he seemed to want the North? If that , who would want it? It's a wreck and about to be wrecked further.

If Stannis takes Winterfell, the hell with that plan.

Seems the show accelerated his demise by having Sanasa telling who she is... that information is now in the hands of the Lords of the Vale* and it's only a matter of time before it's known all across Westeros.

LF would then be suspect of being behind regicide not matter how much they may have disliked Joffrey.

Not very good planning.

*(By the by the 'Lords of the Vale' seem to be as dumb as rocks. LF shows up with Sansa, where did he come from? had to be KL, right after the murder of Joffrey Baratheon and mysteriously Lysa dies. Put two and two together and it does not take a genius to figure out what is going on.)

Sansa is "Suspected" of involvement in Regicide but everything will be on Tyrion, but I suspect any common knowledge of Sansa's wherabouts would coincide with a story arc of Cersei's capture by the High Septon so whoever is in KL won't be in a position to demand the Vale Lords hand her over and certainly not march in there. In there desperation to paper over the cracks they may just ignore any implications Baelish was involved so as to not cause instability in the Harrenhall/Riberlands region so they would consider it prudent to simply not force the issue until they are in a stronger position. Similar to how in season 2 Baelish convinced Tywin to accept a Higharden alliance despite the fact they had just quite overtly sided with the Baratheons, eg Justice can come later

[Jack Bauer 24]

One of my favorite episodes of the entire series!

[FreeParking]

One of my favorite episodes of the entire series!

Have to agree with you on this. I thought it was the best episode of the season. Everyone was talking about the fight, but I thought the star of the episode was Sansa.

[Ruin]

A little late to the party, but I enjoyed the review's breakdown of the fight.

I liked the scene, but the show could've made improvements...Oberyn yelling ELIA during that last move would've been epic, and having the Mountain react to Oberyn's taunts.

The beatle scene was useless, and the screen time should've been incorporated into the duel.

One thing I really enjoyed was Charles Dance. His acting during the fight was incredible.