[Book Spoilers] Nitpick With Impunity

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

kinslaying is a huge taboo in Westeros. Even Roose Bolton won't kill his insane serial killer nut job of a son who killed his rightful heir because of the kinslaying taboo. So, no, in fact, I don't know if Jamie would have killed his cousin, I do know that the Original Jamie Lannister didn't kill his cousin and so far, isn't a kinslayer. It was a stupid change, done for who knows what stupid reason by D&D.

Kingslaying is pretty taboo also. Roose Bolton didn't need to escape a cell, and he can actually make use of Ramsay. Actually Roose is a bit of a weird example since all of his motivations seem to make little sense. Book Jaime didn't kill his cousin, because God forbid an irresponsible, incestous, arrogant Kingslayer with "Shit for honor" kill a man he barely knew which is obviously a whole lot worse than attempting to kill the child of a great lord, that could have (And basically did) start a massive war, or would have gladly killed that Lord's other child to satisfy his sister. Heaven forbid the showrunners demonstrate that Jaime would do almost anything in his power to get out of his cell and back to his sister, short of killing his brother or the few things/people he actually gives a shit about.

[El Guapo]

Was it established that Oberyn likely poisoned his spear, cause D&D said (in inside the episode) he poisoned the mountain in the duel, somewhat sloppy to reveal that info that way, either make it clear in show and then Inside the Epi is fine or if it is a subtle thing, don't mention it in Inside the Epi

They showed someone, his squire I assume, wiping the blade with a cloth which i took to be him putting poison on it. I doubt many unsullied viewers picked up on that and made the connection nor do I know if I would have had I not read the books.

[Miodrag]

Kingslaying is pretty taboo also.

Which is probably why Jaime waited until the last possible moment, when literally nothing else could be done about the Mad King.

Actually Roose is a bit of a weird example since all of his motivations seem to make little sense.

You're right. Looks like GRRM is also failing to understand some concepts there.

Heaven forbid the showrunners demonstrate that Jaime would do almost anything in his power to get out of his cell and back to his sister, short of killing his brother or the few things/people he actually gives a shit about.

And what a fine demonstrations it was! And logical, too! Can't find a single nit to pick - aside from the question you seem to be intent on not answering: what did Jaime kill Alton for exactly? How did that murder get him closer to Cersei?

[Wsaharan]

"Ku-GUNNK" - Brace yourselves, gifs are coming.

So here's what we're going to do. We'll take those four awfully long beetle-minutes with Olson or Orson or the fuck his name was and we're gonna put them away for ever.

Insert more pre-duel Oberyn, mention of Rhaegar and the sack of KL.

Please?

[Veltigar]

Yeah, the problem wasn't that Jaime wouldn't kill a random cousin (Alt was so far down that it probably didn't even count as kinslaying). The problem was that Jaime had no fucking reason to kill Alton. I mean why didn't he just tell his plan to Altos and try and escape together?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

If they eliminate Manderlay and "the North remembers" and everything about that chapter I will picket HBO myself.

So much depends on what hasn't been written yet, ya know? I tend to think that Bran isn't coming back from the far North and the Weirwood tree, which means it has to be Rickon on Skagos. But since we don't know what happens with Davos and Rickon...who knows.

I don't think there was a Wex, but they could make "Wex" any random IB or just have Davos go to White Harbor to get support from the Northern lords...where he will then learn that Bran and Rickon are alive.

Well, except that it won't be big news to anyone...since Jon will know it, so presumably Stannis will know it and around and around we go with the butterfly effect.

LOLand congratulations. You've made me as dizzy as D&D do at times. Still. somehow, someway, I'm thinking we will have to get Manderly eventually. They seem to love Roose, I'm dying to see them all locked in a snowbound Winterfell.

[ground_control]

I honestly must say I didn't notice Sansa's dress at all... or barely noticed in passing and didn't remember. I'm surprised how much it has gotten mentioned. But then, I'm generally not very fashion conscious.

Just curious how you didn't notice -- Petyr is talking to Robin when he looks up and sees Sansa enter the scene backlit by a ray of blazing sun, virtually encased in a holy aura. She was quite literally more radiant than she has ever been shown before. Since it's obviously Petyr's POV, it couldn't have been less subtle unless the show had his jaw drop to the floor and his tongue roll out like a carpet like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsxCMPQzqvk

[Miodrag]

Yeah, the problem wasn't that Jaime wouldn't kill a random cousin (Alt was so far down that it probably didn't even count as kinslaying). The problem was that Jaime had no fucking reason to kill Alton. I mean why didn't he just tell his plan to Altos and try and escape together?

Truth be told, I don't think Jaime would ever find himself in a position to commit kinslaying. He probably would if a kin of his is threatening him (or Cersei) somehow, but that's the thing with kinslaying: it's a product of the family-centered culture that is so meticulously built in the books. That's why kinslaying applies to everyone: not only to Jaime, but to his cousins, too. Not only that kinslaying prevents Jaime from killing a cousing, but it also prevents a cousin from threatening Jaime. It doesn't mean it's impossible for Jaime to find some cousin in his way (for example, a cousin could find out about the twincest), but it'd have to be some drastically unusual and atypical case. And escaping prison is not such a case. Yes, it's terrible to be imprisoned, and Jaime definitely hates it, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason to commit a crime as sinful as kinslaying.

Of course, the show doesn't have to respect the culture built in the books, just like it often doesn't. I find the show vastly weaker because of it, but OK, let's say stranger things happen. However, Jaime killing the only person that is both willing and capable of helping him in his escape (cousin or not), is just plain stupid. The whole scene was a festival of the worst cliches: million people walking around the pen at one moment, and then not a living soul there at the next; Karstark junior going into the pen without the backup; Karstark junior turning his back to Jaime; Jaime strangling Karstark junior so easily; Karstark junior not going for his weapon... And so on.

[Cas Stark]

LOLand congratulations. You've made me as dizzy as D&D do at times. Still. somehow, someway, I'm thinking we will have to get Manderly eventually. They seem to love Roose, I'm dying to see them all locked in a snowbound Winterfell.

You would think. But, their pointless stupidity of Jon knowing Bran is alive puts a fairly big logical wrinkle in how that whole thing played out....of course the D&D MO is to introduce dumb plot twist, execute it, and then ignore it. So they could easily just have Jon know Bran/Rickon are alive and never tell Stannis and ignore he knows it going forward and do the Manderly thing same as in the books....even though of course Jon would know and Stannis would know that Stannis helping the Northern lords get their liege lord back would put them on his side in the blink of an eye. But, you know, logic isn't HBOs strong point in this show.

No hint of fake Arya either, even though Boltons are headed to Winterfell. And, hey ho...what about that Arya Stark that showed up with The Hound in the Vale? Eh, never mind about that. Fuckwits. I'm sorry, it's a good show, but they are fuckwits all the same.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Just curious how you didn't notice -- Petyr is talking to Robin when he looks up and sees Sansa enter the scene backlit by a ray of blazing sun, virtually encased in a holy aura. She was quite literally more radiant than she has ever been shown before. Since it's obviously Petyr's POV, it couldn't have been less subtle unless the show had his jaw drop to the floor and his tongue roll out like a carpet like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsxCMPQzqvk

LOL, I'd rather see that than LF perving.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Truth be told, I don't think Jaime would ever find himself in a position to commit kinslaying. He probably would if a kin of his is threatening him (or Cersei) somehow, but that's the thing with kinslaying: it's a product of the family-centered culture that is so meticulously built in the books. That's why kinslaying applies to everyone: not only to Jaime, but to his cousins, too. Not only that kinslaying prevents Jaime from killing a cousing, but it also prevents a cousin from threatening Jaime. It doesn't mean it's impossible for Jaime to find some cousin in his way (for example, a cousin could find out about the twincest), but it'd have to be some drastically unusual and atypical case. And escaping prison is not such a case. Yes, it's terrible to be imprisoned, and Jaime definitely hates it, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason to commit a crime as sinful as kinslaying.

Of course, the show doesn't have to respect the culture built in the books, just like it often doesn't. I find the show vastly weaker because of it, but OK, let's say stranger things happen. However, Jaime killing the only person that is both willing and capable of helping him in his escape (cousin or not), is just plain stupid. The whole scene was a festival of the worst cliches: million people walking around the pen at one moment, and then not a living soul there at the next; Karstark junior going into the pen without the backup; Karstark junior turning his back to Jaime; Jaime strangling Karstark junior so easily; Karstark junior not going for his weapon... And so on.

My opinion on why they had Jaime kill his cousin for the lame jail break.........they didn't want to have St. Tyrion send all the knives, and well.....also, cut the story for time, IMO, that's why.

[Cas Stark]

My opinion on why they had Jaime kill his cousin for the lame jail break.........they didn't want to have St. Tyrion send all the knives, and well.....also, cut the story for time, IMO, that's why.

But WHY does he have to kill anyone except the Karstarks? That's the only part of the jailbreak that has any reverbations, why can't he do that? And I speak as someone who thinks the new improved redeemed Book Jamie is still a POS oathbreaker who doesn't deserve a happy ending...but why make him do something really bad in context of the world, for no reason? no plot payoff no nothing. Ugh.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

You would think. But, their pointless stupidity of Jon knowing Bran is alive puts a fairly big logical wrinkle in how that whole thing played out....of course the D&D MO is to introduce dumb plot twist, execute it, and then ignore it. So they could easily just have Jon know Bran/Rickon are alive and never tell Stannis and ignore he knows it going forward and do the Manderly thing same as in the books....even though of course Jon would know and Stannis would know that Stannis helping the Northern lords get their liege lord back would put them on his side in the blink of an eye. But, you know, logic isn't HBOs strong point in this show.

No hint of fake Arya either, even though Boltons are headed to Winterfell. And, hey ho...what about that Arya Stark that showed up with The Hound in the Vale? Eh, never mind about that. Fuckwits. I'm sorry, it's a good show, but they are fuckwits all the same.

I had given up on FakeArya a loooooooooooooong time ago. But, hear me out, I think I've found a way to do that, or for them to do it. I highly suspect that we'll find out the guards laughed at Arya and Sandor (just like the KL guards didn't believe who she was) BUT perhaps, word will get to LF, and that'll give him the idea for a FakeArya from the brothel. A young Ros, oh joy, LOL It would be right up their alley, the way they dumb down LF.

[Miodrag]

My opinion on why they had Jaime kill his cousin for the lame jail break.........they didn't want to have St. Tyrion send all the knives, and well.....also, cut the story for time, IMO, that's why.

Even so, why was it necessary for Jaime to kill Alton? Two of them working together is much more logical and exciting. And if Alton has to be killed, then let him be killed by the search party (of-screen, if need be). All that would've been way better than what they actually did.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

But WHY does he have to kill anyone except the Karstarks? That's the only part of the jailbreak that has any reverbations, why can't he do that? And I speak as someone who thinks the new improved redeemed Book Jamie is still a POS oathbreaker who doesn't deserve a happy ending...but why make him do something really bad in context of the world, for no reason? no plot payoff no nothing. Ugh.

I'm not saying I agree, even the first time I watched that cousinslaying (it could use a word, LOL), I thought immediately of the 'whitewashing' Tyrion complaints. In the books, Tyrion sent the men to break Jaime out, and I suspect, it was still all about not giving him a body count.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Even so, why was it necessary for Jaime to kill Alton? Two of them working together is much more logical and exciting. And if Alton has to be killed, then let him be killed by the search party (of-screen, if need be). All that would've been way better than what they actually did.

I agree, I am pissed what it did to Jaime's character. Not only would he not kill a cousin like that, I find it hard to believe that he would kill a regular ordinary Lannister soldier in that situation, either, a brother in arms if you will. Commadarie with men in the field seems to something he enjoys and takes seriously, too.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Who am I kidding, I'm fairly certain the FakeArya ship has sailed.

[Cas Stark]

I agree, I am pissed what it did to Jaime's character. Not only would he not kill a cousin like that, I find it hard to believe that he would kill a regular ordinary Lannister soldier in that situation, either, a brother in arms if you will. Commadarie with men in the field seems to something he enjoys and takes seriously, too.

Again, I'm not on the jamie is redeemed bandwagon...but I can't see him killing a) his cousin, and b) someone who was at the time hero worshipping him, who he had just bonded with over tourney stories and FOR NO REASON...because it didn't help his escape...and um, ya know, if he felt he needed to kill him...he could have enlisted his hero worshipping cousin who could have FAKED IT and then there would be two of them, better odds for him to get away, yes, of course.

I wish I hadn't been reminded of that stupidity.

Back to fake Arya, if there is no fake Arya and no wedding to Ramsay what are they going to do at Winterfell? I guess Roose could call them all together on some pretext, but it would be kind of weak. I will be seriously bummed out if there is no Lady Dustin and no trip to Chekov's Crypts of Winterfell.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Again, I'm not on the jamie is redeemed bandwagon...but I can't see him killing a) his cousin, and B) someone who was at the time hero worshipping him, who he had just bonded with over tourney stories and FOR NO REASON...because it didn't help his escape...and um, ya know, if he felt he needed to kill him...he could have enlisted his hero worshipping cousin who could have FAKED IT and then there would be two of them, better odds for him to get away, yes, of course.

I wish I hadn't been reminded of that stupidity.

Back to fake Arya, if there is no fake Arya and no wedding to Ramsay what are they going to do at Winterfell? I guess Roose could call them all together on some pretext, but it would be kind of weak. I will be seriously bummed out if there is no Lady Dustin and no trip to Chekov's Crypts of Winterfell.

I also just remembered how FakeArya is key to Theon breaking with Ramsey, so I am curious what they will do. They have devoted a lot of time to the Theon story.

[Cas Stark]

I also just remembered how FakeArya is key to Theon breaking with Ramsey, so I am curious what they will do. They have devoted a lot of time to the Theon story.

Yeah, but, the perfect time to hint at fake Arya would have been when granpa whitebeard Bolton tells Ramsay eh, screw it, those Stark boys are probably dead...right? Then again, despite what people like to write on this forum, the show is not very big into foreshadowing, they SURPRISE.

I've believed they would do fake Arya all along because the Winterfell stuff is so intense..but they have really screwed with the plot in many ways.