Reyne deployment

[Jaak]

How big forces did Reynes have in their rebellion?

Tywin marched with 500 horse and 3000 infantry. Possibly the Brax forces who joined them were over and above these 3500.

Red Lion Roger arrived too late to find Tarbeck Hall in flames - with less than a fourth of his force, and the men had been driven too hard, so were tired.

Less than a fourth of his force means that over three fourth of his force was somewhere else. Or in other words, more than three times what he had at Tarbeck Hall.

Now, Tywin also outnumbered Roger´s relief force either three to one or five to one. Meaning that if Tywin´s force was 3500 either way then Roger´s relief column was either 700 to 1200 men.

Now, Roger knew he was too late - yet he charged. Stupid. Yes, it was his dear sister, and there was a small chance he might rescue her. And a substantial chance that she either was dead already (as happened to be the case) or else safe as a captive.

Roger, predictably, lost and fled with half his men in the battlefield. And himself wounded by an arrow - in his back.

But while half his men were left dead on the battlefield, the other half fled. So it was a force of 350 to 600 men that returned with wounded Roger. Plus the Reyne main force, that had not engaged at Tarbeck Hall.

If the Reyne relief column was outnumbered by Tywin 3 to 1 then the Reyne main force, over three fourth of the total, alone outnumbered Tywin´s army (before whatever losses the relief column had inflicted).

What would have happened if Tywin, after massacring the Tarbecks and the Reyne vanguard, had been defeated in a pitched battle by the Reyne main force?

Now, Reynard hid in the hole, with just 300 people - mostly but not all women and children.

Meaning under 150 men to defend the entrances of the hole.

Where were the rest? Minimum 350 men who had retreated from Tarbeck Hall, and over 2100 of the main force that did not engage at Tarbeck Hall?

And what became of them?

[History of Westeros]

Some of the "3 times more, half as many" type comments are not terribly accurate, we noticed.

We wrote down an exact number for Roger Reyne's army, and it was 2k. (Also that if he had more heavy horse he might've been able to fight his way to Tywin and slay him. It was a close battle despite the odds facing Roger Reyne. Given his prowess, perhaps this was not a huge surprise).

The rest of the Reyne men were not marshaled in time, so I assume they were still at their homes, tending their fields etc. This wasn't a standing army of course. That said, the lack of heavy horse may mean he lost some of his lordly/knightly support as well. Decent chance some of Reyne's allies saw the writing on the wall, and realized that the days of walking all over the Lord of Casterly Rock were done, and it was time to be loyal again, or at least stay out of the fighting and see who emerges the victor. Which meant not supporting Roger Reyne anymore, especially after Tywin had beaten him in the field. Remember that this all happened after the Tarbecks were put down, so quite a few Lords probably got the message already.

[Jaak]

The rest of the Reyne men were not marshaled in time, so I assume they were still at their homes, tending their fields etc.

If Roger was handling a serious attack and learned of a Tarbeck defeat, did he just leave his men at homes and fields, or did he hurry ahead with the men he could collect first as vanguard and leave Reynard and his other subordinates to marshal the rest of Reyne men and follow him when they could?

This wasn't a standing army of course.

But the Tarbeck "household knights" were. Supposedly increased from 20 to 500. If Walderran Tarbeck had enough warning of Tywin´s approach to march out and be defeated in a field battle rather than be surprised at Tarbeck Hall, how many smallfolk and vassals did Tarbecks succeed in mobilizing? The 500 household knight standing army alone would have matched Tywin´s 500 horse.

Remember that this all happened after the Tarbecks were put down, so quite a few Lords probably got the message already.

And Roger was hurrying to help his sister. As far as he, or anyone in his army, or anyone who deserted him knew till they saw the flames, Ellyn was safe in Tarbeck Hall. And the Hall was stormed in a hour or so. Plus brief negotiations before, when Ellyn refused to yield. Did Roger know of Walderran´s defeat by the time he departed Castamere with his vanguard?

[History of Westeros]

I've a better handle on this now than when I first responded. Took all those notes but didn't absorb a lot of it. Too busy writing to take it all in, heh.

If Roger was handling a serious attack and learned of a Tarbeck defeat, did he just leave his men at homes and fields, or did he hurry ahead with the men he could collect first as vanguard and leave Reynard and his other subordinates to marshal the rest of Reyne men and follow him when they could?

The latter. There was no mention of Reynard staying behind to marshall more soldiers but that seems like a solid assumption.

But the Tarbeck "household knights" were. Supposedly increased from 20 to 500. If Walderran Tarbeck had enough warning of Tywin´s approach to march out and be defeated in a field battle rather than be surprised at Tarbeck Hall, how many smallfolk and vassals did Tarbecks succeed in mobilizing? The 500 household knight standing army alone would have matched Tywin´s 500 horse.

Those 500 knights weren't enough when Ellyn sent for Roger to come attack Denys Marbrand, either. Perhaps they were placed under Roger's command.

That said, Tywin's 3500 men doesn't include Brax and "other vassals". Given the "Tywin had 3-5 times more men" comment, and knowing Roger had 2k, we can assume Tywin had somewhere between 6-10k. I favor the lower end given that Brax was the only major vassal mentioned, but that should still be plenty to overwhelm the Tarbecks.

And Roger was hurrying to help his sister. As far as he, or anyone in his army, or anyone who deserted him knew till they saw the flames, Ellyn was safe in Tarbeck Hall. And the Hall was stormed in a hour or so. Plus brief negotiations before, when Ellyn refused to yield. Did Roger know of Walderran´s defeat by the time he departed Castamere with his vanguard?

I don't think it's clear exactly when he got the news, but he clearly knew he had to hurry as his men were "driven hard". I'm guessing someone or a few someones escaped from the initial conflict and rode to Castamere, so those men wouldn't have known how bad it had gotten, only that Tywin had arrived suddenly and with a pretty big army.

[Jaak]

That 500 household knights is surprisingly big. The garrison of Dragonstone )a standing army, not including mobilized smallfolk) was a total on 430 men - of whom just 30 were knights. The other 400 were 300 "men-at-arms" and 100 archers.

Tyrion had 7000 men defending King´s Landing, but just 200 of them were knights.

[SunflashJT]

Is there a place that has the full reading from Martin?

[History of Westeros]

Here's our notes on the reading, I'm unaware of anything more detailed:

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

[Veltigar]

Here's our notes on the reading, I'm unaware of anything more detailed:

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

The actual book mayhaps? :p

[History of Westeros]

The actual book mayhaps? :P

Hmmm, *maybe*. :)

[In A Coat of Gold]

Here's our notes on the reading, I'm unaware of anything more detailed:

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

Thanks so much for this! From the reading, it seems that Tywin's response wasn't as viscous as we all thought. Some Tarbecks lived to join the Silent Sisters so not everyone was killed.