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R+L=J v.83


Angalin

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Yes we are 100% sure he wanted 3 kids. He says "The Dragon has three heads, there must be one more"

He named his kids Rhaenys and Aegon... 2/3rds of the original 3 headed dragon.

And as far as Ellia almost dying in birth, that is true but it does not specify in the Vision if it was the same day as the birth. It could have been a week later, a month later.

I had this conversation with someone earlier, but Rhaegar doesn't say that. The vision does. And the Vision isn't Rhaegar. We don't know what it is--part of it is truth and part of it is trickery on the part of the Warlocks who are trying to trap Dany. As far as a historical event a month later, from what we can tell Rhaegar and Elia weren't that close/romantic. Not to the point where he'd be playing a song for the babe. AND he says that there must be one more and HIS is the song of ice and fire but you're saying that he's hoping for Visenya, a girl. AND moreover, it looks like he talks directly to Dany at that point. So, I don't think we can apply that vision to the historical reality of Rheagar, at least not fully.

Wouldn't he have already been away with Lyanna when Aegon was born? Was he even present when Aegon was born? I don't think we can count that vision that Dany sees as being historical indicitive of what Rhaegar wanted. As far as the names go...Aegon would have been the 6th (?) of that name. Targs weren't exactly getting creative with the naming of their children.

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I had this conversation with someone earlier, but Rhaegar doesn't say that. The vision does. And the Vision isn't Rhaegar. We don't know what it is--part of it is truth and part of it is trickery on the part of the Warlocks who are trying to trap Dany. As far as a historical event a month later, from what we can tell Rhaegar and Elia weren't that close/romantic. Not to the point where he'd be playing a song for the babe. AND he says that there must be one more and HIS is the song of ice and fire but you're saying that he's hoping for Visenya, a girl. AND moreover, it looks like he talks directly to Dany at that point. So, I don't think we can apply that vision to the historical reality of Rheagar, at least not fully.

Wouldn't he have already been away with Lyanna when Aegon was born? Was he even present when Aegon was born? I don't think we can count that vision that Dany sees as being historical indicitive of what Rhaegar wanted. As far as the names go...Aegon would have been the 6th (?) of that name. Targs weren't exactly getting creative with the naming of their children.

I very much agree with the spirit of this post...

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Are we 100% sure, though, that historical Rhaegar (not Vision Rhaegar in Dany's trip to the House of the Undying) wanted 3 children? Am I fogetting something outsdie of the House of the Undying (which is quite possible). But if not, then I don't think we can apply what the Vision Rheagar says to the historical one. The scene in the house of the undying is mostly false, given that we know Elia almost died birthing Aegon. So if only Vision Rheagar knew that the dragon needed three heads, but not the historical one, I don't think he'd be concerned with the number of children he had at, let alone looking for a mother for his final one.

No. We aren't. In fact, I often say that there is a chance that scene from the HotU isn't something that happened EXACTLY like it happened in real life.

But, considering that Rhaegar named his children Rhaenys and Aegon, he was expecting more. I don't mean he and Elia went to planned parenthood to plan how many children they would have. As a married noble man, he probably expected as many children as they come, or at least, three. But, the news of Elia not being able to bear more children changes the game. Think about it, he first thought he would be the Prince and probably read something about being "three". But he only had one brother. And then, his wife gets pregnant for a second time. He probably feels "hey, I'm the one siring the three heads, not the prince". Then he's told his wife can't have more children. If he feels his children would in a way replicate Aegon and his sisters, Elia being unable to have more would make him doubt something he gave for granted once again.

What many people assume is that with those news, Rhaegar tried to look for another woman to be the mother of the child left. That I don't believe. What I believe is that he met Lyanna, they became involved and, when she got pregnant, he realised he was already fulfilling the prophecy, with this new kid being the third head. That's why he needed to protect her, because he thought Elia and his children, in KL, would be safe from harm. But Lyanna and their child couldn't simply being taken to KL because that would insult Dorne, Elia and the Starks (which indeed happened). A mistress is one thing, but a mistress with a baby is a different matter, and even if he married her, that would cause problems with the Baratheons. And for Rhaegar, this kid was probably important in the same level as the other two. For other people, Jon would be nothing but his bastard. Maybe he planned to keep them hidden until he could lead with Aerys, once he dies, then he could legitimate the kid and plan a better solution.

Of course, if I am right, this is only in Rhaegar's mind. He was told by the maesters that Elia couldn't get more children. I doubt that's something many people knew. I don't remember Barristan mentioning it (if he does, he still lives in KL). Even if they knew Elia couldn't have more children (some might assume that), what I'm pointing out is how odd Kevan's words sound: "Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted". He sounds like he knew one of Rhaegar's motivations to go with another woman is that his wife couldn't bear more children. In that case, how could he know that? He didn't live in KL, Tywin wasn't Hand anymore. But, as we know that Tywin wanted Cersei to be Queen, then I guess Pycelle was the informant about Elia's health and Tywin commented that on him. And Kevan assumed Rhaegar escaped with him for that reason.

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I had this conversation with someone earlier, but Rhaegar doesn't say that. The vision does. And the Vision isn't Rhaegar. We don't know what it is--part of it is truth and part of it is trickery on the part of the Warlocks who are trying to trap Dany. As far as a historical event a month later, from what we can tell Rhaegar and Elia weren't that close/romantic. Not to the point where he'd be playing a song for the babe. AND he says that there must be one more and HIS is the song of ice and fire but you're saying that he's hoping for Visenya, a girl. AND moreover, it looks like he talks directly to Dany at that point. So, I don't think we can apply that vision to the historical reality of Rheagar, at least not fully.

Wouldn't he have already been away with Lyanna when Aegon was born? Was he even present when Aegon was born? I don't think we can count that vision that Dany sees as being historical indicitive of what Rhaegar wanted. As far as the names go...Aegon would have been the 6th (?) of that name. Targs weren't exactly getting creative with the naming of their children.

You quoted that out of order. the Song of Ice and Fire is about Aegon

"Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way."

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I'd say 75% of my posts are related to this subject. I worked in D.C. for 4 years, so I have some experience with endless debating. Fact is, either R+L=J, which it does, or GRRM spent several dozen pages trolling us all. Either or, it's a FACT! It is known!!!


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No. We aren't. In fact, I often say that there is a chance that scene from the HotU isn't something that happened EXACTLY like it happened in real life.

I would say that given what outsiders have told us about Rhaegar and Elia and the timeline, there is very little chance this scene that Dany sees exactly happened in real life. The visions in the house aren't that literal. There is no woman being chewed up by rats. From what I can tell the only thing historically accurate about that vision is that Elia did in fact give birth to a baby boy that was named Aegon. The rest is super questionable. Espeically when a vision starts dropping sayings like the name of the series while looking at the current POV character.

I would agree that he was expecting more because you need heirs and children die young in this sort of medievial time period.

What many people assume is that with those news, Rhaegar tried to look for another woman to be the mother of the child left. That I don't believe. What I believe is that he met Lyanna, they became involved and, when she got pregnant, he realised he was already fulfilling the prophecy, with this new kid being the third head. That's why he needed to protect her, because he thought Elia and his children, in KL, would be safe from harm. But Lyanna and their child couldn't simply being taken to KL because that would insult Dorne, Elia and the Starks (which indeed happened). A mistress is one thing, but a mistress with a baby is a different matter, and even if he married her, that would cause problems with the Baratheons. And for Rhaegar, this kid was probably important in the same level as the other two. For other people, Jon would be nothing but his bastard. Maybe he planned to keep them hidden until he could lead with Aerys, once he dies, then he could legitimate the kid and plan a better solution.

This I believe more than him seeking out a woman and thinking "she shall give me my third child! and it shall be a girl for prophetic reasons!"

You quoted that out of order. the Song of Ice and Fire is about Aegon

"Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door.

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way."

So I did. My bad :( :(

But I still don't think we can apply vision Rhaegar to historical Rhaegar espeically since the vision turns and looks at Dany as he drops the name of the series into the audiences lap. That's very "here and now" not in the past.

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What many people assume is that with those news, Rhaegar tried to look for another woman to be the mother of the child left. That I don't believe. What I believe is that he met Lyanna, they became involved and, when she got pregnant, he realised he was already fulfilling the prophecy, with this new kid being the third head. That's why he needed to protect her, because he thought Elia and his children, in KL, would be safe from harm. But Lyanna and their child couldn't simply being taken to KL because that would insult Dorne, Elia and the Starks (which indeed happened). A mistress is one thing, but a mistress with a baby is a different matter, and even if he married her, that would cause problems with the Baratheons. And for Rhaegar, this kid was probably important in the same level as the other two. For other people, Jon would be nothing but his bastard. Maybe he planned to keep them hidden until he could lead with Aerys, once he dies, then he could legitimate the kid and plan a better solution.

Could you elaborate on the timeline here, please? if Jon is younger than Robb, Lyanna couldn't have been pregnant before Catelyn....thus, not before Ned's wedding...

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Aegon I married Visenya out of duty, and although rare, he decides to wed Rhaenys out of desire.



I'm not sold that it's fully settled that Rhaegar took Lyanna, where both falling in love out of desire and that's it. I'm really bothered by this because, it could be any woman in Westeros at this point, when learning that Elia could not risk birthing another child, where he could choose.



Rhaegar must have saw some code, some hints in the those scrolls that said something specific, that the prophecy must involve a northern woman, a First Men woman of winter.



I mean he was so determined one day, went to the master of arms and demand that he should have a sword and armor, for he must be a warrior. It's really specific. Am I saying that he planned on Elia not being able to give him another child? no, but it has grounds for suspect. That Rhaegar whether by reading that scroll more closely, was able to decipher that the child must come from such a northern-winter blooded woman with lineage to the Kings in the North.



That's of course if we (the readers) would want to apply the 'Song of Ice and Fire' as elemental symbol to that child.



Brynden said to Dunk&Egg:


There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest.



I believe that this book of scrolls is Signs and Portents, words from Daenys The Dreamer, who was able to account the visions/dreams of past Targaryens and put them in the scrolls as it comes to her in dreams. The three pages of Signs and Portants that Archmaester Merwyn have came from this same scroll.



Did Aegon The Dragon have access to Daenys' messages in that scroll, influencing him and his family to not return to Essos, but to Westeros?


And did Rhaegar able to find that scroll, pieced together Daenys' words and the hidden meaning in that scroll (regarding lineage of the blood of Ice and Fire joining, TPTWP, after the info about Elia unable to birth another child)?



It's interesting that Maester Aemon is convinced that it's Dany, but in Dany's vision we see the figure 'Rhaegar' mentioning "his is the Song of Ice and Fire." GRRM gave us many clues and hints; Dany is everything of 'Fire' as she can be, but there is nothing that is associating her with the element of 'Ice'.



Sorry, if I'm not making any sense, it's just my mind rambling honestly.


I know, a really far fetched thoughts to take into account, but one has to look at Rhaegar's specific intent in relation to how he looks at this prophecy as he aged.



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Small aside, but does have something to do with this: one of my dreams (probably a pipe dream) is that either the prologue for book 6 or 7 (or 8) or all 2 (or 3 lol) is actually a flashback to Rhaegar/ Lyanna/ Rhaegar and Lyanna.



Howland Reed can tell Jon his parentage but at this point I don't know how we're going to get Rhaegar's stroy without a ghost or other deus ex machina plot device.





I know, a really far fetched thoughts to take into account, but one has to look at Rhaegar's specific intent in relation to how he looks at this prophecy as he aged.





that's probably a good point. People change as they age. Rhaegar's didn't even want to be a warrior at first. I think it's safe to say that over the years he kept re-reading, trying to figure it all out. Talked to Maester's, researched on his own, consulted fires and maybe priests.



Again...flashback, please GRRM


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Ya know what's weird, is that Brandon was obviously a play boy, didnt have a problem with sleeping around with whoever, even after he was engaged to Catelyn he was fine with sleeping with Lady Dustin. Robert also had zero qualms about sleeping around with any female in the vicinity, so much so that Lyanna already knew he was a man-whore and had reservations about him. IS this why Brandon became so incredibly over-enraged about Lyanna and Rhaegar? That Robert was his fellow playa-playa, and by Lyanna not choosing Robert she was insulting all playboys in general. Like the fact that any woman could possibly not want a high-born slut-man is taken as a personal insult to Brandon?? I mean gods forbid that every high-born boy doesnt get exactly what he wants at the minute he wants it.

Girls are so adorable sometimes, though let me address a few things as a man. First we prefer the term Mimbo to Man whore. Man whore is just so abrasive, Mimbo just flows better, I mean really it could be a delicious drink at a bar on a tropical Island. "Another round of Mimbo's ladies?"

Second I have a little sister and of course she is an adult at this point, and I love my little sister. Probably not even a strong enough word in regards to my sister. Now towards the end of her HS years her older naturally protective brother was in the Marine Corps, just for a about a couple years at that point. But I was coming home for her graduation. I flew instead of driving and got home 2 days early, crashed at our Brothers place and went to surprise Mom and my angelic sister the next morning. Now I new my sister was no angle but something in my mind convinced me she was. So when I got to the house early that morning, my Mother a very liberal woman had a strange look on her face. What were her two sons doing here that day? Pick up mom give her a squeeze, kiss, kiss, kiss squeeze, squeeze, then my brothers turn. Shhhhhhh where is (my sisters name). Ummmm she's sleeping.. Oh okay shhhhhh. Hey mom who's car is that in the drive way? Did you get her a car, I can't believe you got her a car. Oh no it's not hers. Who's is it, go over list of friends really quickly. No not them. Who? ummmmmm a friend of hers. Who? Squinty eye powers activating.

Who?

Brother of Ser Creighton. Yeah mom Who?

Walking up stairs, hyper protective big brother mode fully activating.

Mom don't go up there.

Why?

Mom, she's not alone.

I know. Who is it?

Mom, he's a nice boy she works with at the theater, he's in college.

Oh is he?

Knock Knock

Sister: Mom?

Not even close

Sister: Oh shit, lots of noise and scrambling.

Door: Oh shit.

SMASH.

I saw something no brother ever wants to see at that moment. Pretty sure Charlie, that's his name saw something no boyfriend ever wants to see at that moment. Now I say his name because they eventually got married, many years later. But in that moment Charles was looked like one thing to me. A rapist, I was sure of it. Everything else is still a blur to this day. Though I vaguely remember my mother on my back holding on for dear life screaming your a professional killer your not suppose to hurt anyone. Mom lived through the 60's and when I joined up she was really upset and sometimes referred to me as a professional killer. Usually before she made me breakfast. 60's mom, what you gonna do? Charlie lived of course, though he did go out the window. I didn't throw him or anything he jumped. Then through all his screams me, my brother, my mother and my sister ended up taking him to the hospital. I carried him to the car, he was doing a lot of moaning and screaming at times. My bed side manner, car side manner comforted him with the STFU before I end your existence, and as soon as you get out I am going to kill you. I went with to make sure he didn't rape my sister again, because I was still positive about that.

I eventually calmed down because I can't handle my sister crying or my mother for that matter. Which they have often used as a powerful weapon against me. Though at the time I was sure here tears were because she was raped. There may have been some words about not being raped, but the chemicals of the human mind are funny thing. The fight was something like.

Me. You raped my sister.

What my sister had said was he did not rape me idiot.

What I heard was raped me.

The crying part at the hospital with you scarred the shit out of me and the terrified look on my sisters face snapped me out of it. I had never scarred my sister a day in her life. I love my little sister, from as far back as I can remember I loved her. They are very special to older brothers, and sometimes we have adverse reactions to them growing up or doing things we hope they never do. I skipped college back in the day so she could go, because my family needed the money. I made that choice before I ever graduated HS. She was the smart one, the good one. So I enlisted so I could help pay for it. She could of gone to a regular school with a full ride. But she was better than that. She had a dream list of what school she wanted to go to, and really not a joke Yale is fucking expensive.

So Brandon flying off half cocked has never really bothered me, or Neds grief. Little sisters are the reason big bothers exist. Now had Charles been a married man and run off with my sister when she was 14. Charles would of died a horrible death. I can't really explain what happened in the books because I don't know. But Angry big brother, that I can explain.

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@ corbon,

I believe Rickard was the Stark in Winterfell during the HH tourney.

Yeah, the blunder was mine. It appeared to me the intimation in what people were saying was that Benjen had joined the NW before the ToJ event (hence, somebody blundered because there would be no Stark in Winterfell), but the actual intimatiuon was that he'd gotten the idea of joining it in his head before ToJ happened.

I'm more than fine with that, as I have never been a fan of the "Benjen joined the NW out of guilt for what happened to Lyanna" theory,

Vision Rhaegar does in the House of the Undying to Dany. Rhaegar does decide to become a warrior after he reads a prophecy and thinks that he is TPTWP, and then later he thinks it's baby Aegon. But we don't know that in his life Rhaegar actually knew anything about "a song of ice and fire" And in fact, in the vision, the Rhaegar Dany sees tells her that there must be another and that this other is TPTWP and his is the song of ice and fire.

Its almost certain that he did know. We know he was extremely well read, and intelligent, and trained at Oldtown, and is known to have read the prophecies etc and made life-changing decisions based on them. He knows that the PwwP was prophecied to come from his father's line (so very high chance him or his line). His whole house is based on a successful prophecy (avoiding the Doom) and his family is famously cursed by 'dragon dreams'. Maester Aemon speaks of others who studied the prophecies and how they collectively made the mistake of forgetting that the word 'prince' is gender neutral in High Valyrian (because its the word dragon, and dragons can change genders so the word dragon is gender neutral) and so its seems extremely likely that Rhaegar may have been one of those others.

Its also true that the visions Dany had were true visions in substance, even if not in exact detail. So it is therefore virtually certain that Rhaegar knew of the PwwP, the SoIaF and believed in those things for Aegon. Also that Elia knew some or all of it too, since she is in the vision.

And there is nothing anywhere that remotely suggests that the vision couldn't be a true one either, even if its not an exact window back in time. You appear to have some timeline issues suggesting this, but Aegon was conceived around the time of Harrenhal (perhaps just before, or just after) and therefore born about 9 months later. The war started around a year later, and there is no indication between Harrenhal and the 'abduction' of anything further, so it actually fits rather well if Rhaegar encountered Lyanna as the KotLT at Harrenhal, was intrigued and/or liked her, but did nothing as he was an honourable man and was already following the three dragons plan perfectly with Elia. Then 9 months later Aegon is born, which is all to plan, but then Elia is pronounced unable to have more kids, which breaks the whole plan entirely! But then Rhaegar realises that that brave and honourable (and beautiful, lets not ignore that! He may well have been somewhat smitten and ignored it as inappropriate and unnecessary to the plan, he is after all noted as being dutiful above all) girl from Harrenhal is actually representative of Ice, and fits perfectly with his plan. And she appeared to be crushing on him at Harrenhal (along with 90% of the girls in the seven kingdoms mind you), and didn't favour Robert at all, so it probably wasn't hard to jack up an elopement in a very short time. Then they deliberately disappear for awhile, because that makes it very very much harder to do anything stupid, or to break up the surprise marriage after the fact but unfortunately Brandon was unforeseeably stupid and it all went to shit from there before they could even learn of it.

As I've said in the previous thread, I simply do not see how an elopement could have been planned secretly, between the two, without Rickard knowing -- because ravens are unreliable, and always go first through the maester -- maester Walys, in this case. Even a rider in the night, bearing a message from Lyanna's beloved Prince would not imho, have gone unnoticed.

Thus, I see only these solutions:

1) Rhaegar planned it all on his own, showed up after a year apart, and persuaded her to come along.

2) He really did take her against her will.

3) others like Rickard himself, were involved.

Lyanna was almost certainly still in the south though, learning how to be a good little noblewoman (instead of a wild tomboy in her motherless home) from her southern relatives-to be, for her future role as Lady Baratheon. Perhaps even at Harrenhal (Lady Whent is sister to Lady Tully and Brandon is die to marry Catelyn Tully). So it shouldn't be all that hard for Rhaegar to meet with her, either in secret or in public, several times. Shes almost certainly there to learn to be sociable, and to meet with and form the personal relationships with the other great nobles that will be so necessary to her as Lady Baratheon.

And one of Rhaegar's regular bodyguards appears to be Ser Oswell Whent...

In summary, though we don't know how much contact there was between R and L before the 'abduction', it would not at all have been hard for them to communicate, according to everything we know. Heck, she probably even visited KL herself at some stage between Harrenhal and the abduction!

Asoiaf has often been praised for its realism. In reality, people are complex. Their interactions are complex. Their motives are complex. Love, is complex. And so is war. I don’t buy that the whole war started because of R+L. That their story proves an adequate scapegoat? yes. But I don’t think that was the root of the war at all -- not solely, in any case. RR happened all of 16/17 years ago after all; and victors do what victors do.. .

It quite clearly and literally, textually, was not the root of the war. A key link in the chain, yes, but not even the trigger itself, let alone the cause.

-> Apparently due to reports he had of the abduction (we don't know for sure, but it seems obvious to us, if not to anyone else because he didn't give any reasoning) Brandon went to KL and committed High Treason in public view, an offense punishable by death. That was criminally stupid of him and the way he apparently went about it had no chance of any positive result for him or his family. No one can predict that level of gross stupidity and plan for it. You might expect people to do some crazy shit, if they are crazy shit folks, that might actually do something positive, but not what Brandon did.

-> Aerys threw Brandon and his pals in jail, and demanded their fathers come and answer for their crimes. Which is all good and fair so far. No mention of Lyanna so far. No one knows where Rhaegar is.

-> the fathers came, and Aerys executed them and their sons. Rckard demanded a trial by combat for Brandon, with himself as Brandon's champion. Its a bit harsh by Aerys at this stage, but still all fair and legal.

-> Aerys declares Fire as House Targaryen's champion and has Rickard roasted in his armour while Brandon strangles himself trying to save Rickard. Aerys cheated like a dirty cheat, committing judicial murder. Still no rebellion at this stage though, and still no mention of Lyanna.

-> Aerys sent to Jon Arryn demanding Robert's and Ned's head. Whoah Nelly! Judicial murder is one thing, but at least he had cause. Here is two innocent High Lords heads being demanded for no reason. We can't have that shit going on from the king, and Jon Arryn especially is not going to let that shit happen to his own wards.

REBELLION by Jon Arryn. Ned and Robert join up, because, really, its that or send their own heads to KL. Still no mention of Lyanna.

I definitely doubt Rhaegar was looking a new "mother" for his child. I think he met Lyanna, they got involved, she got pregnant and then, he realised that child would be the third head of the Dragon, hence, the need to protect her.

See above. That simply doesn't fit the data we have. He met Lyanna and then nothing for a year. In between, his wife had a second child, but couldn't have any ore and he says "there must be one more" which perfectly fits everything we know about history, prophecy and House Targaryen. Three heads of the Dragon.

Its also astonishingly coincidental that there is ASoIaF, mentioned even by Rhaegar, and the girl he gets involved with symbolically represents Ice to his Fire.

There is an interesting bit in Dance, about this. In the epilogue, when Kevan is remembering the girl Cersei was, he says:

"And when she’d flowered, ahhhh ... had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun".

Looks like Kevan is implying that the reason of Rhaegar leaving with Lyanna is that Elia couldn't have more children and Rhaegar wanted more. I wonder if that's the "official" version some might have.

Which is odd because, how he would know? Barristan remembers that Elia was bedridden after Aegon was born, but who else? Connington knew she couldn't have more kids but he isn't exactly an stranger. Maybe Pycelle?

Every prince wants, needs even, sons. Its basically their primary job.

Rahegar might possibly have a particular, specially focused, need/want, but thats not at all necessary for Kevan's quote.

I had this conversation with someone earlier, but Rhaegar doesn't say that. The vision does. And the Vision isn't Rhaegar. We don't know what it is--part of it is truth and part of it is trickery on the part of the Warlocks who are trying to trap Dany. As far as a historical event a month later, from what we can tell Rhaegar and Elia weren't that close/romantic. Not to the point where he'd be playing a song for the babe. AND he says that there must be one more and HIS is the song of ice and fire but you're saying that he's hoping for Visenya, a girl. AND moreover, it looks like he talks directly to Dany at that point. So, I don't think we can apply that vision to the historical reality of Rheagar, at least not fully.

Wouldn't he have already been away with Lyanna when Aegon was born? Was he even present when Aegon was born? I don't think we can count that vision that Dany sees as being historical indicitive of what Rhaegar wanted. As far as the names go...Aegon would have been the 6th (?) of that name. Targs weren't exactly getting creative with the naming of their children.

See above. There is no trickery in any of the "visions" that Dany sees - the trickery is in some of what she sees behind doors, but thats a separate part of the whole HotU trip IIRC. The visions hold truth, no lies, even if they are not exact literal windows into seeing events in the past, future or present.

And no, he would not have been with Lyanna when Aegon was born. Thats several months before the 'abduction'.

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And there is nothing anywhere that remotely suggests that the vision couldn't be a true one either, even if its not an exact window back in time. You appear to have some timeline issues suggesting this, but Aegon was conceived around the time of Harrenhal (perhaps just before, or just after) and therefore born about 9 months later. The war started around a year later, and there is no indication between Harrenhal and the 'abduction' of anything further, so it actually fits rather well if Rhaegar encountered Lyanna as the KotLT at Harrenhal, was intrigued and/or liked her, but did nothing as he was an honourable man and was already following the three dragons plan perfectly with Elia. Then 9 months later Aegon is born, which is all to plan, but then Elia is pronounced unable to have more kids, which breaks the whole plan entirely! But then Rhaegar realises that that brave and honourable (and beautiful, lets not ignore that! He may well have been somewhat smitten and ignored it as inappropriate and unnecessary to the plan, he is after all noted as being dutiful above all) girl from Harrenhal is actually representative of Ice, and fits perfectly with his plan. And she appeared to be crushing on him at Harrenhal (along with 90% of the girls in the seven kingdoms mind you), and didn't favour Robert at all, so it probably wasn't hard to jack up an elopement in a very short time. Then they deliberately disappear for awhile, because that makes it very very much harder to do anything stupid, or to break up the surprise marriage after the fact but unfortunately Brandon was unforeseeably stupid and it all went to shit from there before they could even learn of it.

Seriously, thank you for that. My timeline is super shaky on the pre-Robert's Rebellion stuff right now.

So...general question to thread readers: Did Rhaegar actually love Lyanna or was it all part of prophecy that he's trying to fulfill. Who's name did he actually utter on the Trident??

And to bring Elia back into this: did he ever explain to her why he was with Lyanna, "part of prophecy, dear." Man I wish we had some chapters/books from these three....

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So...general question to thread readers: Did Rhaegar actually love Lyanna or was it all part of prophecy that he's trying to fulfill. Who's name did he actually utter on the Trident??

And to bring Elia back into this: did he ever explain to her why he was with Lyanna, "part of prophecy, dear." Man I wish we had some chapters/books from these three....

It was Lyanna's name. It was confirmed on the app.

But we don't know how much Elia knew either.

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It was Lyanna's name. It was confirmed on the app.

But we don't know how much Elia knew either.

I gotta get me this app. My thanks.

What if Elia approved? She knew she couldn't have more children but if she knew that Rhaegar was determined to have these three in accordance with propechy, then what if she acutally encouraged him to be with Lyanna. Gods that makes her death even more sad.

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What if Elia approved? She knew she couldn't have more children but if she knew that Rhaegar was determined to have these three in accordance with propechy, then what if she acutally encouraged him to be with Lyanna. Gods that makes her death even more sad.

Its entirely possible she did, but cue shudders of outrage from Rhaegar haters everywhere at the very thought. Not to mention the feminazis.

And yes, it makes perfect sense - if he must have one more, better for herself, her House and her kids, by far, to stay the first wife in a polygamous marriage than be abandoned.

Remember also that while their was fondness, and duty, and apparently respect there, no one suggests there was ever any love in that marriage. Its even possible that there could be an element of freedom for her in a R+L marriage.

But we just don't know..

And yes, even more sad. She did everything right her whole life, as far as we can tell, and got no real reward at any time and a horrible end.

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Lyanna was almost certainly still in the south though, learning how to be a good little noblewoman (instead of a wild tomboy in her motherless home) from her southern relatives-to be, for her future role as Lady Baratheon. Perhaps even at Harrenhal (Lady Whent is sister to Lady Tully and Brandon is die to marry Catelyn Tully). So it shouldn't be all that hard for Rhaegar to meet with her, either in secret or in public, several times. Shes almost certainly there to learn to be sociable, and to meet with and form the personal relationships with the other great nobles that will be so necessary to her as Lady Baratheon.

And one of Rhaegar's regular bodyguards appears to be Ser Oswell Whent...

It quite clearly and literally, textually, was not the root of the war. A key link in the chain, yes, but not even the trigger itself, let alone the cause.

-> Apparently due to reports he had of the abduction (we don't know for sure, but it seems obvious to us, if not to anyone else because he didn't give any reasoning) Brandon went to KL and committed High Treason in public view, an offense punishable by death. That was criminally stupid of him and the way he apparently went about it had no chance of any positive result for him or his family. No one can predict that level of gross stupidity and plan for it. You might expect people to do some crazy shit, if they are crazy shit folks, that might actually do something positive, but not what Brandon did.

-> Aerys threw Brandon and his pals in jail, and demanded their fathers come and answer for their crimes. Which is all good and fair so far. No mention of Lyanna so far. No one knows where Rhaegar is.

-> the fathers came, and Aerys executed them and their sons. Rckard demanded a trial by combat for Brandon, with himself as Brandon's champion. Its a bit harsh by Aerys at this stage, but still all fair and legal.

-> Aerys declares Fire as House Targaryen's champion and has Rickard roasted in his armour while Brandon strangles himself trying to save Rickard. Aerys cheated like a dirty cheat, committing judicial murder. Still no rebellion at this stage though, and still no mention of Lyanna.

-> Aerys sent to Jon Arryn demanding Robert's and Ned's head. Whoah Nelly! Judicial murder is one thing, but at least he had cause. Here is two innocent High Lords heads being demanded for no reason. We can't have that shit going on from the king, and Jon Arryn especially is not going to let that shit happen to his own wards.

REBELLION by Jon Arryn. Ned and Robert join up, because, really, its that or send their own heads to KL. Still no mention of Lyanna.

There's a lot of assumptions in your post. In any case, we can disagree about Rhaegar's motives. Where though do you get it from, that Lyanna was most certainly in the south? with Lady Whent? If she needs to learn about being the Lady of Stormsend, she needs to be in Stormsend, to meet these lords and ladies she'll rule over; to meet her soon to be brothers in law; and learn to be a surrogate mother to Renly.

MntLion has stated earlier, the betrothal was announced after the tourney, in Winterfell. The talk between Lyanna and Ned, is said to have occurred on that same night, in Winterfell (that's on the wiki; but in any case, it sounds to me the betrothal was already a done deal when they spoke). So according to this, Lyanna was in Winterfell, after the tourney; where she had that discussion with Ned -- if that assumption is true. Then she traveled back to Harrenhal to be trained to become a proper lady... I see a problem here; these two assumptions do not at all make sense together. It is entirely illogical to travel north to Winterfell, and then back south again to Harrenhal soon after, in order to be at Harrenhal for Prince Rhaegar to woo her during that small time frame between the tourney and the kidnapping. Best stay south all the while or best travel north and stay there until Brandon's wedding.

About the timeline of the events leading up to the rebellion; I was speaking in broader terms when I wrote that the kidnapping wasn't imo, the root of the war... I do not mean by that that it was Brandon, or Aerys, etc. only, that this "chain of events" is only one part of the whole picture: because of the rumors surrounding the tourney itself; because of allegations of "southron ambitions"...these at the very least, make me want to question this single sequence of events we are being given. I suspect there was more going on. that R+L became a scapegoat.

I am not satisfied with the romantic explanation, nor do I feel we should put this much weight on the prophecies Rhaegar might or might not have tried to fulfill.

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I'm going to speak broadly here. This pertains largely to R+L=J, but could also fit other theories, like the valonqar.



I think people obsess too much over the "who" in these sorts of things. "Who is Jon's mother? Who is the valonqar?" When the answers to those questions are hinted at in the books (e.g. it's hinted that Lyanna is Jon's mother and Rhaegar is his father and that Jaime is the valonqar), people create their own backlash to it. "If I was able to figure it out, it must be a false lead! He must be having us on! It can't be that easy!"



I think that at least a few of these mysteries, especially those two, aren't really predicated on the "who," so much as the "why" and the "how." In R+L=J's terms, the great mystery at this point isn't who his parents are (I think we who believe R+L=J can all say that all of the pieces are there for those paying attention and willing to examine them), but it's why they got together, how it happened and what effect it will have on the story. Likewise, if Jaime (or whoever) ends up being the valonqar, the operative conclusion isn't simply the "who" of it, but how it came to pass and why.



In other words, rejecting R+L=J out of a belief that it settles the "who" too easily is probably missing the point of what GRRM is going for. He's not actually hiding anything or using trickery with these clues; we're meant to solve the mystery. It's all the other components that comprise the "real" enigma.


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There's a lot of assumptions in your post. In any case, we can disagree about Rhaegar's motives. Where though do you get it from, that Lyanna was most certainly in the south? with Lady Whent? If she needs to learn about being the Lady of Stormsend, she needs to be in Stormsend, to meet these lords and ladies she'll rule over; to meet her soon to be brothers in law; and learn to be a surrogate mother to Renly.

Most certainly in the south at the time of the abduction, probably at or not far from Riverrun (Harrenhal fits) because it was just before Brandon's wedding and she would have been there. Indeed, bradnon, who had just left Riverrun for a local errand, is the first to get the news of her 'abduction'.

As you say below, it makes no sense that she would return to the north after Harrenhal, then be back south again a year later for Brandon;s wedding. Especially when one notes that she is tomboysihly inclined, has only a father and brothers at Winterfell, and is betrothed to the Lord of Storms End.

So its extremely logical that she stayed in the south after Harrenhal in order to gain those graces she (clearly) wasn't gaining at Winterfell, and form relationships she couldn't form at Winterfell.

Where might she stay?

Well, somewhere where she can have a surrogate mother figure and sisters to learn from for a start (and form relationships with). There's no immediate family down south (that we know of) but the Tully's will be family soon, are political allies, are of appropriate rank and have the 'sisters' if not the mother. And the Whents, nearby, and related to the Tullys, also of very high rank, and have the other figure and at least one daughter of a similar age. It also seems fitting that the Whent and Tully girls, first cousins would be close and 'combine' as sisters.

Ser Oswell Whent is just icing on the cake really.

And yes, forming Stormlord (and their wives) relationships would be more beneficial than just the riverlands, but its also a balancing act with family and other ties, and not just throwing her in the deep end all alone in the Stormlands. Its also the last place I'd send her as father if I'd heard anything like the truth about Robert's typical behaviour!

However I would expect during that year of being based at Riverrun/Harrenhal she probably travelled a bit, almost certainly to KL and probably to some of the Stormlands, and most likely some of the wiser stormlords came up to meet her as well, visiting at Riverrun/Harrenhal, who knows.

None of this is certain, but it makes an awful lot more sense than her going back up to winterfell, and back down again, or even being 'abducted from around Winterfell itself!

MntLion has stated earlier, the betrothal was announced after the tourney, in Winterfell. The talk between Lyanna and Ned, is said to have occurred on that same night, in Winterfell (that's on the wiki; but in any case, it sounds to me the betrothal was already a done deal when they spoke). So according to this, Lyanna was in Winterfell, after the tourney; where she had that discussion with Ned -- if that assumption is true. Then she traveled back to Harrenhal to be trained to become a proper lady... I see a problem here; these two assumptions do not at all make sense together. It is entirely illogical to travel north to Winterfell, and then back south again to Harrenhal soon after, in order to be at Harrenhal for Prince Rhaegar to woo her during that small time frame between the tourney and the kidnapping. Best stay south all the while or best travel north and stay there until Brandon's wedding.

Thats Mtn Lion's personal theory and I disagree with it. Several timings are unclear, but there is simply too much back and forth travel across the length of the continent for his theory to fit. Its is much more likely, IMO that the betrothal was announced in Winterfell before the Stark kids went south for Harrenhal and Lyanna stayed south afterward. Mtn Lion IIRC from our discussions bases much on the birth year of Mya Stone and the Harrenhal tourney date, but IIRC when we hashed it out it comes down to something like a 2-3 month window of her birthday works works fro annoucement before the tourney and a 9-10 month window of her brithday works aonly after the tourney. As best we can tell. He goes by the odds on that, I go by the other factors like travel options and Lyanna's tomboyism and lack of feminine role models at Winterfell..

About the timeline of the events leading up to the rebellion; I was speaking in broader terms when I wrote that the kidnapping wasn't imo, the root of the war... I do not mean by that that it was Brandon, or Aerys, etc. only, that this "chain of events" is only one part of the whole picture: because of the rumors surrounding the tourney itself; because of allegations of "southron ambitions"...these at the very least, make me want to question this single sequence of events we are being given. I suspect there was more going on. that R+L became a scapegoat.

No worries. There are sufficient rabid "everything is Rhaegar's fault entirely" people that ignore that the actual timeline and events, that these things do need to be explained in detail occasionally. One can't always tell if its one of those occasions or not.

And yes, its almost certain that there is a larger context even to those events. I rather suspect, for example, that the whole northern conspiracy thing (whether its true or not) is exactly why paranoic Aerys over-reacted to Brandon's treason - and possibly also the mix of companions with him was even more inflammatory in Aerys' mind.

I am not satisfied with the romantic explanation, nor do I feel we should put this much weight on the prophecies Rhaegar might or might not have tried to fulfill.

Me either. I tend to thing it was probably a balancing act of prophecy and attraction and duty and, later, romance, a complex thing as people and the ties that bind them are complex.

But I can see reasonable and sensible narrative possibilities within all that. So I have the 'most likely/best' idea for now, which will change and adapt (or strengthen) as we get more data.

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This has probably been mentioned before in one of the other 82 threads on this. But when Ned leaves Winterfell with King Robert to become Hand, on the road to KL, (in GoT at least) Robert asks Ned about Jon's mother saying that he never told him about what she looked like & that she must have really been something for the honorable Eddard Stark to forget his vows or something along those lines. If they were good long time friends as they were, wouldn't Ned have mentioned 'Wyilla' or described her more to his buddy a long time ago if he was telling the truth about hooking up with this woman? Especially since he randomly comes home with a kid after war time alongside of Robert? Ned's reaction to Roberts question looked like he was pulling something out of his ass to get through the question. Same goes for when Jon asked him before departing for the wall. Sean Beans acting was superb, giving you his look of really really trying to avoid answering the question altogether. What would there to be ashamed of (other than breaking his marriage vows) to Jon if the Wylla story was true?

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